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JinxDragon wrote:
As for the 'war-gear is not an ability or special rule' I still have to disagree.

Everything, everything , everything , is a basic or specialized rule of which the vast majority falls under the 'specialized' side of those two categories. When you use a piece of war-gear you are evoking a special rule granted by being in 'possession' of that piece of war-gear. For example; the weapon profile for a boltgun is nothing more then a list of special rules that are evoked when you fire said weapon. This is all covered in the first section of the rule book, unfortunately I do not know the exact page off the top of my head but I want to say around 9 or 10. It doesn't matter if the rule is granted by a piece of war-gear or straight to the model itself, it is still a special rule as defined by the book and can be limited by anything that states it affects 'special rule.'

It is actually part of a problem for certain rule debates because we do not have guidance on how to resolve conflicts between certain specialized rules.

According to this comment everything is a special rule. So either the Wargear is not a special rule or ability. Or it is. Which would keep blessings (which would be special rules) from affecting the unit since they cannot benifit from the rule. Which would keep the UM chapter Tactics from working.

So what is it?

 Lemartes12 wrote:
According to this comment everything is a special rule. So either the Wargear is not a special rule or ability. Or it is. Which would keep blessings (which would be special rules) from affecting the unit since they cannot benifit from the rule. Which would keep the UM chapter Tactics from working.

So what is it?

The bolded has no basis in the actual rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

There is no rule which limits you from CHOOSING. It only limits you using special abilities. The PEN is not a special ability.
According to you Boltguns are special abilities. Jump packs are special abilties. Wargear are NOT abilities or special rules in themselves.

No, wargear grant abilities. Wargear can also allow you to shoot, etc. but they also can grant special rules or abilities. One of those abilities would be to grant a special rule upon the bearer. What does the PEC do?

For goodness sake, there is NO LIMITATION ON GRANTING ABILITIES ON PAGE 125. It just says you can't use any abilties that have to be used at the start of the turn. Abilities can still be granted for using in the shooting and/or assault phases of the game. The rule doesn't say that the PEN is used at all, it just says pick a rule, you have that rule. Picking the rule happens at the start of the bearers movement phase & not the overall movement phase in general. There is also no limitation in saying that I cannot choose abilities while in reserve. So in essence I can pick the ability while in reserve, deepstrike in and then use the rule in the shooting/assault phase of the game. The PEN is a piece of wargear, it is not an ability or a special rule in itself and I don't know how many times I need to say this, all the while you ignore what I already told you a million times. Here is how it goes:

1)Start of the movement phase
2) Deepstrike unit and choose ability for the PEN. I am not using an ability and I am not using a special rule at this point of the game. So Page 125 is not relevant at this point.
3) Do rest of movement.
4) Start Shooting Phase
5) Use special rule for shooting phase i.e Monster Hunter
6) Etc,

Wargear may confer/grant abilities or special rules but this does not mean that wargear are abilities or special rules themselves. Examples of wargear are:

1) Jump Packs
2) Boltguns
3) Grav Weapons
4) Bikes
5) Jet Packs
6) Etc, etc.

Notice how Jet Packs can still be used in the assault phase, even in a turn when they have deepstriked. So just because they have deepstriked this does not affact their abilities that they use in the assault phase.

Even if it was a rule change what rule did they change?

That ICs are allowed to join units prior to deployment.

I meant in relation to The High King Rule. Did they change the codex rule or the BRB rule?

They didn't errata the wording of the codex so does that then mean they changed the rule in the book? I think its clear here that the rule wasn't to be interpretated the way you are looking at it. Otherwise they would have just said no to Logan. The fact they said yes is proof that they don't want the rule on page 125 to be used that way.

In Logan's specific case. The FAQ is very specific. You can use it to try and argue intent, but that's a different discussion.

Why not just change the wording and errata it? They did that with the Blood Chalice gear for Blood Angels. They changed the wording to make sure it only applied to BA units.

As per GW and what they say in reagrds to FAQs

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440134a&categoryId=1000018§ion=&aId=3000006

FAQs, or Frequently Asked Questions are grey areas, points of confusion or places where rules can and have been interpreted in conflicting ways. For each FAQ we provide the answer as determined by the Games Development team; while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation.

Games Workshop even say that FAQs are their INTERPRETATION OF THE RULES. You can argue that they change rules all the time if you like but GW have said themselves that their FAQs are the interpretation of the rules currently in place and are different from errata.

Wrong. Read the rule on Page 125. The abilties in themselves are NOT banned. Monster Hunter can be used when deep striking if said unit has Monster Hunter because Monster Hunter is used in THE SHOOTING PHASE, not at the beginning of the turn.

You're conflating special rules with abilities. You shouldn't - they aren't the same thing.
When nos refers to ability, he's referring to the choosing that the PEC grants.

I am not conflating special rules & abilites. I am just stating that the PEN is neither of them.

What is in question here is if the wargear to nominate the rule can be used or not because the decision is made at the start of the turn. As I said though, wargear in itself is not an ability or specail rule. The PEN isn't even listed under the Tau Special Rules, it is listed in the signature systems area of the codex. The wording doesn't even say that the PEN is used, the rules says pick a rule, you have that rule. It doesn't give me an option to not use it. Its says I pick a rule and I have that rule.

None of which is relevant - you're still using it to pick a rule.

And what stops me from picking a rule? I am not using the rule yet. The wargear allows me to pick a rule for later use. There is nothing to say that I cannot use wargear. Even then it doesn't say that I am using said wargear. The wargear itself grants a special rule every turn. I just have to pick that rule every turn at the start of the movement phase. However it doesn't say I am actually using the wargear at that point in order to do it.

Exactly, the way they are reading it is preposterous. Space Marine Chapter Traits would be useless for deepstriking units.

It's preposterous because some things might not work the way you're expecting? What?
And the UM Chapter Tactics is the only one potentially affected by this. I say potentially because it's not the deep-striking unit activating the rule. But let's not let actual rules get in the way of your crusade.

Oh I see, so you want to be able to argue for the use of the Ultramarines traits but you will deny that the PEN is allowed. The Ultramarines traits say that the doctrines are picked at the start of the turn. All of the doctrines that are listed are either used by models or used by units that turn. So deepstriking units will be using a trait that you CHOOSE at the start of the turn. The PEN chip says I can get to pick a rule for the unit for the turn, so if you want to get technical over it the unit isn't activating the rule, I am. It says that I get to pick the rule, so I am making the choice.

The same reasoning you are using for Ultramarine doctrines I can use for the PEN. The wargear just allows ME to pick a special rule for that unit every turn. My wargear is functioning in the exact same way as those Ultramarine traits.

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

There is no rule which limits you from CHOOSING. It only limits you using special abilities. The PEN is not a special ability.
According to you Boltguns are special abilities. Jump packs are special abilties. Wargear are NOT abilities or special rules in themselves.

No, wargear grant abilities. Wargear can also allow you to shoot, etc. but they also can grant special rules or abilities. One of those abilities would be to grant a special rule upon the bearer. What does the PEC do?

For goodness sake, there is NO LIMITATION ON GRANTING ABILITIES ON PAGE 125. It just says you can't use any abilties that have to be used at the start of the turn.

And what is granting that special rule (not ability - there is a difference)?

2) Deepstrike unit and choose ability for the PEN. I am not using an ability and I am not using a special rule at this point of the game. So Page 125 is not relevant at this point.

So the PEC doesn't grant you the ability to choose a special rule? You have that ability without the PEC?

Notice how Jet Packs can still be used in the assault phase, even in a turn when they have deepstriked. So just because they have deepstriked this does not affact their abilities that they use in the assault phase.

Are Jet Packs wargear that must be used at the beginning of the turn? No? Then why are you comparing them? It's like words matter or something.

Even if it was a rule change what rule did they change?

That ICs are allowed to join units prior to deployment.

I meant in relation to The High King Rule. Did they change the codex rule or the BRB rule?

Since the FAQ was in the Codex section and not the BRB section, it'd be the codex specific rule.

They didn't errata the wording of the codex so does that then mean they changed the rule in the book? I think its clear here that the rule wasn't to be interpretated the way you are looking at it. Otherwise they would have just said no to Logan. The fact they said yes is proof that they don't want the rule on page 125 to be used that way.

In Logan's specific case. The FAQ is very specific. You can use it to try and argue intent, but that's a different discussion.

Why not just change the wording and errata it? They did that with the Blood Chalice gear for Blood Angels. They changed the wording to make sure it only applied to BA units.

Because they didn't feel like it? It's not my place to guess why - I can only go by what's given.

Games Workshop even say that FAQs are their INTERPRETATION OF THE RULES. You can argue that they change rules all the time if you like but GW have said themselves that their FAQs are the interpretation of the rules currently in place and are different from errata.

And when their interpretation is in direct contradiction to the written rule, did they change the rule or does the written rule stand?

Wrong. Read the rule on Page 125. The abilties in themselves are NOT banned. Monster Hunter can be used when deep striking if said unit has Monster Hunter because Monster Hunter is used in THE SHOOTING PHASE, not at the beginning of the turn.

You're conflating special rules with abilities. You shouldn't - they aren't the same thing.
When nos refers to ability, he's referring to the choosing that the PEC grants.

I am not conflating special rules & abilites. I am just stating that the PEN is neither of them.

Abilities can still be granted for using in the shooting and/or assault phases of the game.

You are conflating them. I bolded one example above and copy/pasted another from your post.

And what stops me from picking a rule? I am not using the rule yet. The wargear allows me to pick a rule for later use. There is nothing to say that I cannot use wargear. Even then it doesn't say that I am using said wargear. The wargear itself grants a special rule every turn. I just have to pick that rule every turn at the start of the movement phase. However it doesn't say I am actually using the wargear at that point in order to do it.

The wargear grants you a nifty ability. What is that ability? That you must pick a special rule at the beginning of your movement phase. How are you picking that special rule? By using the ability that the PEC grants.

Oh I see, so you want to be able to argue for the use of the Ultramarines traits but you will deny that the PEN is allowed. The Ultramarines traits say that the doctrines are picked at the start of the turn. All of the doctrines that are listed are either used by models or used by units that turn. So deepstriking units will be using a trait that you CHOOSE at the start of the turn. The PEN chip says I can get to pick a rule for the unit for the turn, so if you want to get technical over it the unit isn't activating the rule, I am. It says that I get to pick the rule, so I am making the choice.

The UM traits are not used my models or units.

To do so, at the start of your turn, state which doctrine you wish to use (if any)- that doctrine is in effect until the beginning of your next turn.

Note how it's not an individual unit using it, you're stating overall which one you wish to use and then individual units/models can benefit.

The same reasoning you are using for Ultramarine doctrines I can use for the PEN. The wargear just allows ME to pick a special rule for that unit every turn. My wargear is functioning in the exact same way as those Ultramarine traits.

Demonstrably false.

I think this really has to be the last thing to say here.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440134a&categoryId=1000018§ion=&aId=3000006

Errata provide corrections to the errors that sometimes creep into our books. It is important to note that Errata carry the same 'authority' as the main rules and permanently modify published material; where one of our books says one thing and the errata changes this to something else, the errata takes precedence as the 'correct' version of that material.

So its clear from GW that errata is used to correct errors.

Amendments are changes made to our rules in order to make them work within a new context; the most common example would be when a new core rulebook is released which then has a knock-on effect of invalidating existing material. They are not designed to fix newly created weaknesses or shortfalls, but simply to ensure that no rule, unit, item of equipment or whatever else is left incompatible with the current edition of the game.

Clear from this that the Magenta changes are to be considered ammendments to the rules.

FAQs, or Frequently Asked Questions are grey areas, points of confusion or places where rules can and have been interpreted in conflicting ways. For each FAQ we provide the answer as determined by the Games Development team; while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation.

Clear from this that FAQs are the interpretation of the rules to be used.

So in short, Logans High King rule by their standards was interpretated to be allowed within the current rules of the game. Even if people here wanted to argue the following:

1) That the PEN is an ability, not just wargear.

2) Movement Phase = Start of the trun.

3) That GW change rules in FAQs

Neither of anything matters above. It is made clear that FAQ rulings are rulings based on interpretation of the rules and are their official interpretations. To demand that these points do apply to the PEN does not invalidate it being able to be used on a turn when deepstriking, as the interpretation of the rule would then match Logans rule exactly. i.e. At the start of a turn pick an ability and your unit gets that ability. Both Logan and the PEN do this under the assumptions that people have made above in the 3 points.

1) Unit with Logan or PEN deepstrikes.

2) Unit with Logan or PEN picks a special rule at start of the turn (equated by some to also mean start of the movement phase).

3) Unit with Logan or PEN use special rule in shooting/assault phase.

The interpretation must be equal to that of the ruling with Logan in this instance. Note that GW stated the folling in regards to their FAQs, "while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation". So when people say that GWs intentions cannot be made from the Logan ruling, well they are wrong, because GW said that you could.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:
According to this comment everything is a special rule. So either the Wargear is not a special rule or ability. Or it is. Which would keep blessings (which would be special rules) from affecting the unit since they cannot benifit from the rule. Which would keep the UM chapter Tactics from working.

So what is it?

The bolded has no basis in the actual rules.

The bolded doesnt answer the question.
Is it or is it not. Is everything a rule or isn't it.

You say it has no basis but you don't give me a reason why it doesn't. The abilities granted by a blessing either A) count as a rule or ability and therfore are denied use to the unit arriving by deepstrike or B)Do not count as a rule/ability and do affect the unit. The same thing would apply to the war gear it either is or it isn't. You can not say one is and the other isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ha Darth. i like that. Because GW said you could.

DarthOvious wrote:The interpretation must be equal to that of the ruling with Logan in this instance. Note that GW stated the folling in regards to their FAQs, "while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation". So when people say that GWs intentions cannot be made from the Logan ruling, well they are wrong, because GW said that you could.

No, there's no basis to assume that the interpretation must be equal. GW's official interpretation of Logan's rules was that it worked. There's no evidence that they meant it to be broader than that.
Even with that, that's an argument of intent. A completely different discussion.

Lemartes12 wrote:You say it has no basis but you don't give me a reason why it doesn't. The abilities granted by a blessing either A) count as a rule or ability and therfore are denied use to the unit arriving by deepstrike or B)Do not count as a rule/ability and do affect the unit. The same thing would apply to the war gear it either is or it isn't. You can not say one is and the other isn't.

Actually, it's easy to say one is and the other isn't.
One is used by the unit at the start of the turn. The other is cast by another unit that has no restrictions on it.
There's no rule denying a benefit from an outside source - just that a unit entering from reserve can't use abilities or special rules. You've invented a circumstance and you're trying to make it fit when it doesn't.

rigeld2 wrote:

Actually, it's easy to say one is and the other isn't.
One is used by the unit at the start of the turn. The other is cast by another unit that has no restrictions on it.
There's no rule denying a benefit from an outside source - just that a unit entering from reserve can't use abilities or special rules. You've invented a circumstance and you're trying to make it fit when it doesn't.

How does it not fit?

 Lemartes12 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Actually, it's easy to say one is and the other isn't.
One is used by the unit at the start of the turn. The other is cast by another unit that has no restrictions on it.
There's no rule denying a benefit from an outside source - just that a unit entering from reserve can't use abilities or special rules. You've invented a circumstance and you're trying to make it fit when it doesn't.

How does it not fit?

I explained in the quote, but evidently that wasn't good enough.

p125 wrote:Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

Is the unit that arrived from reserves casting a psychic power? No, in your example it's another unit casting it.
Is benefiting from a psychic power, charging or using an ability or special rule that must be used at the start of the turn? No, in your example the unit is not using anything at all.

Perhaps you would like to use actual rules to explain your example instead of butchered paraphrases?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

There is no rule which limits you from CHOOSING. It only limits you using special abilities. The PEN is not a special ability.
According to you Boltguns are special abilities. Jump packs are special abilties. Wargear are NOT abilities or special rules in themselves.

No, wargear grant abilities. Wargear can also allow you to shoot, etc. but they also can grant special rules or abilities. One of those abilities would be to grant a special rule upon the bearer. What does the PEC do?

For goodness sake, there is NO LIMITATION ON GRANTING ABILITIES ON PAGE 125. It just says you can't use any abilties that have to be used at the start of the turn.

And what is granting that special rule (not ability - there is a difference)?

Yes, I know that abilities and special rules are different but it doesn't matter because the PEN is wargear.

2) Deepstrike unit and choose ability for the PEN. I am not using an ability and I am not using a special rule at this point of the game. So Page 125 is not relevant at this point.

So the PEC doesn't grant you the ability to choose a special rule? You have that ability without the PEC?

I can choose a special rule, that doesn't mean I am using said rule.

Notice how Jet Packs can still be used in the assault phase, even in a turn when they have deepstriked. So just because they have deepstriked this does not affact their abilities that they use in the assault phase.

Are Jet Packs wargear that must be used at the beginning of the turn? No? Then why are you comparing them? It's like words matter or something.

So Jet Packs don't deep strike? If Jet Packs deep strike are they not counted as moving at the start of the turn/movement phase according to you.

Even if it was a rule change what rule did they change?

That ICs are allowed to join units prior to deployment.

I meant in relation to The High King Rule. Did they change the codex rule or the BRB rule?

Since the FAQ was in the Codex section and not the BRB section, it'd be the codex specific rule.

The codex specific rule which works as the same in your eyes to the PEN? And considering that the FAQ is interpretation of the rules then surely they interpretate the PEN in the same way then since they said so.

They didn't errata the wording of the codex so does that then mean they changed the rule in the book? I think its clear here that the rule wasn't to be interpretated the way you are looking at it. Otherwise they would have just said no to Logan. The fact they said yes is proof that they don't want the rule on page 125 to be used that way.

In Logan's specific case. The FAQ is very specific. You can use it to try and argue intent, but that's a different discussion.

Why not just change the wording and errata it? They did that with the Blood Chalice gear for Blood Angels. They changed the wording to make sure it only applied to BA units.

Because they didn't feel like it? It's not my place to guess why - I can only go by what's given.

And what else did they give you? They gave you their intent of the FAQs and what they are used for.

Games Workshop even say that FAQs are their INTERPRETATION OF THE RULES. You can argue that they change rules all the time if you like but GW have said themselves that their FAQs are the interpretation of the rules currently in place and are different from errata.

And when their interpretation is in direct contradiction to the written rule, did they change the rule or does the written rule stand?

Read the page:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat440134a&categoryId=1000018§ion=&aId=3000006

FAQs, or Frequently Asked Questions are grey areas, points of confusion or places where rules can and have been interpreted in conflicting ways. For each FAQ we provide the answer as determined by the Games Development team; while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation.

They didn't change the rule, their interpretation just doesn't match the one you want or the the one you think is the correct interpretation. I have done my best to explain why to you, however you refuse to listen to such an interpretation to begin with.

Wrong. Read the rule on Page 125. The abilties in themselves are NOT banned. Monster Hunter can be used when deep striking if said unit has Monster Hunter because Monster Hunter is used in THE SHOOTING PHASE, not at the beginning of the turn.

You're conflating special rules with abilities. You shouldn't - they aren't the same thing.
When nos refers to ability, he's referring to the choosing that the PEC grants.

I am not conflating special rules & abilites. I am just stating that the PEN is neither of them.

Abilities can still be granted for using in the shooting and/or assault phases of the game.

You are conflating them. I bolded one example above and copy/pasted another from your post.

Whatever. I know that special rules and abilities are not the same ruleswise it was me who first differentiated between them myself. You are just being pedantic now.

And what stops me from picking a rule? I am not using the rule yet. The wargear allows me to pick a rule for later use. There is nothing to say that I cannot use wargear. Even then it doesn't say that I am using said wargear. The wargear itself grants a special rule every turn. I just have to pick that rule every turn at the start of the movement phase. However it doesn't say I am actually using the wargear at that point in order to do it.

The wargear grants you a nifty ability. What is that ability? That you must pick a special rule at the beginning of your movement phase. How are you picking that special rule? By using the ability that the PEC grants.

The PEN is given to my unit at army list stage, so technically it grants the unit a special rule every turn when I write the army list.

Also how are Ultramarine units getting thier abilities/special rules? By using the ability provided by doctrines? So by your own logic Ultramarines can't use their rules when deepstriking either.

Oh I see, so you want to be able to argue for the use of the Ultramarines traits but you will deny that the PEN is allowed. The Ultramarines traits say that the doctrines are picked at the start of the turn. All of the doctrines that are listed are either used by models or used by units that turn. So deepstriking units will be using a trait that you CHOOSE at the start of the turn. The PEN chip says I can get to pick a rule for the unit for the turn, so if you want to get technical over it the unit isn't activating the rule, I am. It says that I get to pick the rule, so I am making the choice.

The UM traits are not used my models or units.

To do so, at the start of your turn, state which doctrine you wish to use (if any)- that doctrine is in effect until the beginning of your next turn.

Note how it's not an individual unit using it, you're stating overall which one you wish to use and then individual units/models can benefit.

Yeah, to be bad using your interpretation units that deepstrike can't use them then. That is how afterall how Page 125 says it. Read Again.

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

Doctrines are declared at start of turn and applies to units. So using your faulty interpretation would render Ultramarine chapter traits as being invalid when deepstriking.

The same reasoning you are using for Ultramarine doctrines I can use for the PEN. The wargear just allows ME to pick a special rule for that unit every turn. My wargear is functioning in the exact same way as those Ultramarine traits.

Demonstrably false.

 DarthOvious wrote:
I can choose a special rule, that doesn't mean I am using said rule.

I've never - ever - said you are.
I've said that you are using the PEC. Which is accurate.

Are Jet Packs wargear that must be used at the beginning of the turn? No? Then why are you comparing them? It's like words matter or something.

So Jet Packs don't deep strike? If Jet Packs deep strike are they not counted as moving at the start of the turn/movement phase according to you.

What Jet Pack rule *must* be used at the beginning of the turn? Please cite one.

The codex specific rule which works as the same in your eyes to the PEN? And considering that the FAQ is interpretation of the rules then surely they interpretate the PEN in the same way then since they said so.

No, you cannot assume that. GW has interpreted two similar rules in different ways before.

And what else did they give you? They gave you their intent of the FAQs and what they are used for.

So again - you're arguing RAI. Cool story bro - different discussion.

They didn't change the rule, their interpretation just doesn't match the one you want or the the one you think is the correct interpretation. I have done my best to explain why to you, however you refuse to listen to such an interpretation to begin with.

Please read the wound allocation rules and then the related FAQ. Please prove that what they said in the FAQ does not absolutely contradict the written words they used.
It does. It happens often. The fact that GW calls it "intended" instead of "errata" means nothing.

The PEN is given to my unit at army list stage, so technically it grants the unit a special rule every turn when I write the army list.

Also how are Ultramarine units getting thier abilities/special rules? By using the ability provided by doctrines? So by your own logic Ultramarines can't use their rules when deepstriking either.

No - the units do not use the doctrine. The units benefit from the doctrine.

Yeah, to be bad using your interpretation units that deepstrike can't use them then. That is how afterall how Page 125 says it. Read Again.

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

Doctrines are declared at start of turn and applies to units. So using your faulty interpretation would render Ultramarine chapter traits as being invalid when deepstriking.

Obviously you're failing to understand. Units benefit from doctrines, but units do not use doctrines.

No its not. Not using your interpretation its not.

Using your incorrect understanding of my interpretation maybe. Using the actual rules however... it's false and I've proven that.

rigeld2 wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:The interpretation must be equal to that of the ruling with Logan in this instance. Note that GW stated the folling in regards to their FAQs, "while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation". So when people say that GWs intentions cannot be made from the Logan ruling, well they are wrong, because GW said that you could.

No, there's no basis to assume that the interpretation must be equal. GW's official interpretation of Logan's rules was that it worked. There's no evidence that they meant it to be broader than that.
Even with that, that's an argument of intent. A completely different discussion.

Yes there is. They said it themselves. What they said is VERY clear. You now have no leg to stand on.

FAQs, or Frequently Asked Questions are grey areas, points of confusion or places where rules can and have been interpreted in conflicting ways. For each FAQ we provide the answer as determined by the Games Development team; while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation.

What part of official interpretation of the existing rules do you not understand? Read what it says.

1) "while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata"

They clarrify that these are NOT RULES OR ERRATA. They are not a change to said rules. They are an interpretation of the current rules already in place.

2) " they should be considered the 'official' interpretation"

The even say that these rulings ARE THE OFFICAL INTERPRETATION OF SAID RULES.


Now considering that in your eyes, the function of the PEN is EXACTLY THE SAME FUNCTION AS LOGANS RULE. Then how come the same interpretattion cannot be made. In your eyes Logan can do what the PEN cannot do despite the fact that they work in the exact same way and despite the fact that GW said that this is not a rules change but an interpretation of already existing rules.

Once again.

1) Logan Unit/ PEN Unit Deepstrike onto table.

2) Logan Unit/ PEN Unit choose Special Rule. In your eyes both abilites to do this say they happen at the start of the turn.

3) Logans Unit/ PEN Unit use special rule in shooting phase i.e. Tank Hunter.

Once again, GW have clarrified that they HAVE NOT MADE ANY RULE CHANGES HERE and that they have INTERPRETATED EXISTING RULES IN PLACE. That means the interpretation for Logan can also be applied to the PEN. It works, in your eyes, exactly the same way as Logans rule.

Darth - Shadow in the Warp vs Vehicles

FAQ'd to NOT work when a psyker is embarked, then FAQ'd TO work when the psyker is embarked.

One of these is absolutely, 100% a rules change. Without a doubt.

Please, do NOT continue to argue that FAQs do not change rules. They absolutely do, as a small history lesson can show you, if you are interested in mroe examples (there are quite a few)

Regardless of what GW have stated, FAQs have changed rules.

On topic:

The PEC grants you an ability. That ability is to let you choose which special rule the unit will have.

Please show how making that choice - whcih is ABSOLUTELY using that ability granted by the PEC - is allowed under page 125.

Simply put - making the choice is using the ability granted by the PEC. There is no allowance to do so as it falls foul of page 125.

rigeld2 wrote:

p125 wrote:Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

Is the unit that arrived from reserves casting a psychic power? No, in your example it's another unit casting it.
Is benefiting from a psychic power, charging or using an ability or special rule that must be used at the start of the turn? No, in your example the unit is not using anything at all.

I bolded the part relevant to your example. Using the reasoning you have already provided then yes it is. Doctrines, under your defintion would need to be labelled as an ability that grants a special rule. The marine codex says this in terms of doctrines.

"To do so, at the start of your turn, state which doctrine you wish to use".

The doctrines are applied to models and units. For example lets take the twin linked one.

"Models in this detachment re-roll all To Hit rolls of 1 made in the Shooting phase. Models in the detachment's Tactical Squads instead re-ro ll all failed To Hit rolls made in the Shooting phase".

So lets ask the questions you asked earlier on.

So the Doctrine doesn't grant you the ability to choose a special rule? You have that ability without the Doctrine?

If you want an example of an FAQ changing a rule (not errata or amendment) then here's a huge one:

Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged weapon? (p52)
A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret Mounted Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit.

Arc of sight should be determined down the length of the weapon. At no point should the base ever be used for this.

So should all fliers use this now?
Logan's rule is for Logan. Not every similar rule.

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:The interpretation must be equal to that of the ruling with Logan in this instance. Note that GW stated the folling in regards to their FAQs, "while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation". So when people say that GWs intentions cannot be made from the Logan ruling, well they are wrong, because GW said that you could.

No, there's no basis to assume that the interpretation must be equal. GW's official interpretation of Logan's rules was that it worked. There's no evidence that they meant it to be broader than that.
Even with that, that's an argument of intent. A completely different discussion.

Yes there is. They said it themselves. What they said is VERY clear. You now have no leg to stand on.

What evidence is there that they meant the interpretation to be broader than Logan?
Please cite some - your argument for Intent would require it.

They clarrify that these are NOT RULES OR ERRATA. They are not a change to said rules. They are an interpretation of the current rules already in place.

Which is blatantly false. They have made FAQs that are literally contradicting the rules and can't be an interpretation.

Now considering that in your eyes, the function of the PEN is EXACTLY THE SAME FUNCTION AS LOGANS RULE. Then how come the same interpretattion cannot be made. In your eyes Logan can do what the PEN cannot do despite the fact that they work in the exact same way and despite the fact that GW said that this is not a rules change but an interpretation of already existing rules.

The problem with your assumption (which is what this is) is that GW has, in the past, ruled that similar rules work out differently. ICs in drop pods, for example. Doom's 6" bubble for example (doesn't extend into vehicles while things like the BA FNP bubble does). Shadow in the Warp either does or does not extend inside a vehicle depending on when you looked at the FAQ (which is a blatant rules change - they cannot both be interpretations of existing rules).

1) Logan Unit/ PEN Unit Deepstrike onto table.

2) Logan Unit/ PEN Unit choose Special Rule. In your eyes both abilites to do this say they happen at the start of the turn.

Logan has specific permission to do so. Does the PEC unit?

Once again, GW have clarrified that they HAVE NOT MADE ANY RULE CHANGES HERE and that they have INTERPRETATED EXISTING RULES IN PLACE. That means the interpretation for Logan can also be applied to the PEN. It works, in your eyes, exactly the same way as Logans rule.

No, the bolded is your assumption with no basis in fact and the italics is a lie. Please do not claim to speak for me.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
I can choose a special rule, that doesn't mean I am using said rule.

I've never - ever - said you are.
I've said that you are using the PEC. Which is accurate.

Not necessarily, its like your doctrines you see. They magically circumnavigate the reasoning you already laid out.

Are Jet Packs wargear that must be used at the beginning of the turn? No? Then why are you comparing them? It's like words matter or something.

So Jet Packs don't deep strike? If Jet Packs deep strike are they not counted as moving at the start of the turn/movement phase according to you.

What Jet Pack rule *must* be used at the beginning of the turn? Please cite one.

I have already said, they must use jet packs at the beginning of the turn if they are deep striking. Units with Jet Packs can only deep strike if using their jet packs. For instance Jump Pack models with a jump pack can deep strike, take the jump packs off and they cannot deep strike. So that means when you deep strike you must use your jump pack/jet pack in order to do so. It even says in the rule that when you deep strike with Jump Packs and Jet Packs you already count as having used them for movement purposes.

The codex specific rule which works as the same in your eyes to the PEN? And considering that the FAQ is interpretation of the rules then surely they interpretate the PEN in the same way then since they said so.

No, you cannot assume that. GW has interpreted two similar rules in different ways before.

Well we will need to go by the ruling we have for Logan. Also we can assume it since they said we can assume it. What part did you not understand on that page?

"FAQs, or Frequently Asked Questions are grey areas, points of confusion or places where rules can and have been interpreted in conflicting ways. For each FAQ we provide the answer as determined by the Games Development team; while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation".

Once again the part in bold states that these are not rule changes but interpretation of rules already in place. They even state they are official rulings. The interpretation made must also apply to the PEN since the same interpretation of the rule applies.

You may say that GW have had different rulings on similar things in the past but what conflicting ruling do you have to disagree with the use of the PEN? If you have nothing, then there can be no conflict to begin with. They have openly stated that these rulings are official interpretations of the rules already in place. Without any FAQ ruling that contradicts this, then it is perfectly viable to use Logans FAQ to argue for validity of the PEN.

And what else did they give you? They gave you their intent of the FAQs and what they are used for.

So again - you're arguing RAI. Cool story bro - different discussion.

Thats what FAQs are for. They are to clarrify the true intent of the rules that people misunderstand.

They didn't change the rule, their interpretation just doesn't match the one you want or the the one you think is the correct interpretation. I have done my best to explain why to you, however you refuse to listen to such an interpretation to begin with.

Please read the wound allocation rules and then the related FAQ. Please prove that what they said in the FAQ does not absolutely contradict the written words they used.
It does. It happens often. The fact that GW calls it "intended" instead of "errata" means nothing.

So GW rulings mean nothing? Oh well your basis to argue against the PEN in the first place is invlidated. Whatever you think about the PEN means nothing because the rules you are quoting mean nothing. Congrats, we now have no game. If they did change the wounds allocation rules why does this matter? The ruling still occurs and for more it occurs for every army out there.

The PEN is given to my unit at army list stage, so technically it grants the unit a special rule every turn when I write the army list.

Also how are Ultramarine units getting thier abilities/special rules? By using the ability provided by doctrines? So by your own logic Ultramarines can't use their rules when deepstriking either.

No - the units do not use the doctrine. The units benefit from the doctrine.

Well the unit doesn't use the PEN either. It just benefits from the PEN. Seriously, thats the wording of the PEN. It doesn't say that unit uses it. It says I use it to give a special rule to the unit. This is what it says:

""At the start of the bearers movement phase, choose one of the following special rules:................"

It doesn't say the unit uses it. It does say I pick a special rule and the unit has that rule.

Yeah, to be bad using your interpretation units that deepstrike can't use them then. That is how afterall how Page 125 says it. Read Again.

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

Doctrines are declared at start of turn and applies to units. So using your faulty interpretation would render Ultramarine chapter traits as being invalid when deepstriking.

Obviously you're failing to understand. Units benefit from doctrines, but units do not use doctrines.

In that case. Units benefit from the PEN, but units do not use the PEN.

Please cite where it says that unit "use" the PEN. It doesn't. I purchase the PEN for a unit, but it doesn't say it is a piece of wargear that gets used.

No its not. Not using your interpretation its not.

Using your incorrect understanding of my interpretation maybe. Using the actual rules however... it's false and I've proven that.

I'm sure you have. Afterall you don't use doctrines, you just benefit from them. How is this any different from what I argued for the PEN?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Darth - Shadow in the Warp vs Vehicles

FAQ'd to NOT work when a psyker is embarked, then FAQ'd TO work when the psyker is embarked.

One of these is absolutely, 100% a rules change. Without a doubt.

Please, do NOT continue to argue that FAQs do not change rules. They absolutely do, as a small history lesson can show you, if you are interested in mroe examples (there are quite a few)

Regardless of what GW have stated, FAQs have changed rules.

So what? They used an FAQ to change the rules. That is however not their official stance. So I don't care. Their official stance states otherwise.

On topic:

The PEC grants you an ability. That ability is to let you choose which special rule the unit will have.

Please show how making that choice - whcih is ABSOLUTELY using that ability granted by the PEC - is allowed under page 125.

Why Page 125? I have already said that it doesn't apply. The PEN doesn't grant an ability to the unit, I have said this muliple times. The unit doesn't choose the special rule, I CHOOSE THE SPECIAL RULE. What exactly is the unit doing that they are not supposed to be doing?

I have argued muliple things.

1) The bearers movement phase is not necessarily the same thing as the overall movement phase or even start of the turn. Show me where the start of the turn is equated to being to movement phase.

An FAQ has already been provided, ironically enough by the same people who want to invalidate FAQs, but then all the FAQ states is that they happen at the same time, not that they are equal to each other. So the Onus is on others to show me where the start of the movement phase = start of the turn. They have failed to do that thus far. So I am not using an ability that says I must use it at the start of the turn. I am using an ability that says to be used at the start of the bearers movement.

The bearers movement phase starts when he depstrikes onto the board, so it cannot be equated to being start of the turn or even the start of the overall movement phase.

2) I have argued that the PEN is not an ability. Even if it gives an ability it gives an ability to me to choose a rule for the unit to use later on. IT DOES NOT GRANT THE UNIT AN ABILITY IN ITSELF.

Please show me where the unit is doing something wrong? The unit is not doing anything wrong at the start of the movement phase, because it is not doing anything at the start of the movement phase. I AM DOING IT.

Frankly, I cannot be bothered listing the rest. I have already stated my reasons perfectly clear.

Simply put - making the choice is using the ability granted by the PEC. There is no allowance to do so as it falls foul of page 125.

The ability is not used by the unit then. So your argument doesn't hold up. What is the unit doing wrong? I choose the special rule that the unit then uses in a later stage of the game. Once again it says, pick a special rule, the unit has that special rule until the start of the next movement phase. Read the rule on Page 125.

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

What ability is being used by the unit. The rule for the PEN says that I get to choose the special rule allocated to the unit. It doesn't say the model with the PEN gets to activate it in the movement phase. It says I get to choose it in the movement phase.

"At the start of the bearers movement phase, choose one of the following special rules:................"

Simply put, Me =/= My Unit.

The wording to the PEN rule is so different I cannot even fathom how the rule on Page 125 can even relate to it.

1) The unit doesn't use it at the start of the turn. (Movement Phase).

2) The Unit doesn't use it at all. I use the ability to pick a special rule for the unit to use later on. The ability to choose a special rule falls to me, not to the unit. Which is actually similar wording for Logans rule as well. "..............................Such is his skill at command that you may choose one of the following special rules at the beginning of each turn: Fearless, Tank Hunters, Relentless, Preferred Enenmy......................."

Note here the unit isn't choosing the rule. The player is choosing the rule and this is probably why it was FAQd to work.

3) PEN is wargear and not an ability. Granting abilities or granting special rules is not prohibited on Page 125. It just says that a unit cannot use abilities or special rules themselves on a turn it deepstrike. So the PEN grants an ability for me to choose a special rule for later on. The unit is not using an ability and it is not using a special rule.

4) Page 7 of the rulebook says this "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in the codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence".

So Codex trumps rulebook everytime. Codex says I pick a special rule for the unit and it has that special rule. Also note I am doing this with a piece of wargear FROM MY CODEX. The wargear is not listed in the rulebook at all and so my codex must be referred to in order to know what the PEN does to begin with. So Tau codex trumps, BRB.

I am sure there are other reasons, I have already cited in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
If you want an example of an FAQ changing a rule (not errata or amendment) then here's a huge one:

Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged weapon? (p52)
A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret Mounted Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit.

Arc of sight should be determined down the length of the weapon. At no point should the base ever be used for this.

So should all fliers use this now?
Logan's rule is for Logan. Not every similar rule.

What does the choas codex list the helldrakes weapons as? There is no contradiction here in terms of turret mounted weapons. Turret mounted weapons have a firing arc of 360 degrees.

Units deep striking only do so for one simple reason: They have the deep striking rule.

Even if you where to remove the jump pack, but leave the deep striking rule in place, then the unit still would be able to deep strike. Nothing within the deep striking rule states 'you can only use it if you have X war-gear,' so it clearly is not limited or linked in any way to a specific type of wargear. There are also units out there with deep striking rules yet lack a jump pack, jet pack or any other obvious piece of war-gear which the special rule is applied through. They simply have it on their base model, and still can use it even with the lack of war-gear that is normally associated with deep striking.

Nor, to my understanding as I am going off memory, is there a rule that states the deep striking unit can not use a jump or jet-pack after deep striking. The one you are likely thinking on limits specific types of movement after deep striking, movement types that can legally be done by all units and not just those with war-gear granting deep strike. Instead of out right limiting any war-gear, this rule instead puts the limitation on things like 'movement phase' or 'charging.' Should I be remembering properly, thrust move during the assault phase still possible even for units that deep strike in.

 DarthOvious wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
If you want an example of an FAQ changing a rule (not errata or amendment) then here's a huge one:

Q: How do I determine the Arc of Sight for a Heldrake’s ranged weapon? (p52)
A: Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret Mounted Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit.

Arc of sight should be determined down the length of the weapon. At no point should the base ever be used for this.

So should all fliers use this now?
Logan's rule is for Logan. Not every similar rule.

What does the choas codex list the helldrakes weapons as? There is no contradiction here in terms of turret mounted weapons. Turret mounted weapons have a firing arc of 360 degrees.

Weapon mountings almost never listed. It wasn't in this case, you normally look to the model. It clearly isn't a turret.
Turret mounting do not always have a 360* arc. It's arc is how much it can actually rotate. A Storm Raven turret for example cannot rotate 360*.
And again, the base should never be used to determine weapon range or arc of sight on a vehicle. The FAQ is directly changing the rules.

So should a Strom Raven use the Heldrake FAQ to allow using the base?

The rule of the chip states"at the start of the bearers movement phase" which simply means he can use it on the turn they arrive from reserves since you can declare to use it before placing a model down for the no scatter deep strike .

Iirc bearer is model, player is human.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:The interpretation must be equal to that of the ruling with Logan in this instance. Note that GW stated the folling in regards to their FAQs, "while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation". So when people say that GWs intentions cannot be made from the Logan ruling, well they are wrong, because GW said that you could.

No, there's no basis to assume that the interpretation must be equal. GW's official interpretation of Logan's rules was that it worked. There's no evidence that they meant it to be broader than that.
Even with that, that's an argument of intent. A completely different discussion.

Yes there is. They said it themselves. What they said is VERY clear. You now have no leg to stand on.

What evidence is there that they meant the interpretation to be broader than Logan?
Please cite some - your argument for Intent would require it.

If you can't be bothered reading what I already cited then I am not repeating myself.

They clarrify that these are NOT RULES OR ERRATA. They are not a change to said rules. They are an interpretation of the current rules already in place.

Which is blatantly false. They have made FAQs that are literally contradicting the rules and can't be an interpretation.

Well I have quoted what they say. If you don't agree with them then I don't care. What they cite is important. You just don't agree with what they said.

Now considering that in your eyes, the function of the PEN is EXACTLY THE SAME FUNCTION AS LOGANS RULE. Then how come the same interpretattion cannot be made. In your eyes Logan can do what the PEN cannot do despite the fact that they work in the exact same way and despite the fact that GW said that this is not a rules change but an interpretation of already existing rules.

The problem with your assumption (which is what this is) is that GW has, in the past, ruled that similar rules work out differently. ICs in drop pods, for example. Doom's 6" bubble for example (doesn't extend into vehicles while things like the BA FNP bubble does). Shadow in the Warp either does or does not extend inside a vehicle depending on when you looked at the FAQ (which is a blatant rules change - they cannot both be interpretations of existing rules).

If you disagree with GW then I don't care. We are pretty much done here. You don't even allow for the possibility for GW to change their interpretation on said instances.

1) Logan Unit/ PEN Unit Deepstrike onto table.

2) Logan Unit/ PEN Unit choose Special Rule. In your eyes both abilites to do this say they happen at the start of the turn.

Logan has specific permission to do so. Does the PEC unit?

Yes they do. I have cited why multiple times. I can't help you when you ignore what I said. The reason why Logan was clarrified this way in the FAQ is because it is well within the rules to do so. You have just ignored the reasons why I said it was allowed and waved your hand away. You then use the very same reason I gave you for the allowance of the PEN to then defend the Ultramarines Chapter Traits. You really can't make this up.

Once again, GW have clarrified that they HAVE NOT MADE ANY RULE CHANGES HERE and that they have INTERPRETATED EXISTING RULES IN PLACE. That means the interpretation for Logan can also be applied to the PEN. It works, in your eyes, exactly the same way as Logans rule.

No, the bolded is your assumption with no basis in fact and the italics is a lie. Please do not claim to speak for me.

JinxDragon wrote:
Units deep striking only do so for one simple reason: They have the deep striking rule.

Even if you where to remove the jump pack, but leave the deep striking rule in place, then the unit still would be able to deep strike. Nothing within the deep striking rule states 'you can only use it if you have X war-gear,' so it clearly is not limited or linked in any way to a specific type of wargear.

Was reading through this and i had to stop and correct this. What happens when i take off the jump packs of my Assualt squad and put them in a rhino? are you saying i can now deepstrike the rhino? No its the 1) jump packs or 2)the drop pod (or even a land raider if your BA) that lets them deepstrike. For terminators if you ever could let them take off there armour its the terminator armour that lets them deepstrike.


and now back to reading.

JinxDragon wrote:
Units deep striking only do so for one simple reason: They have the deep striking rule.

Granted, but this ability can usually be granted by wargear.

Even if you where to remove the jump pack, but leave the deep striking rule in place, then the unit still would be able to deep strike. Nothing within the deep striking rule states 'you can only use it if you have X war-gear,' so it clearly is not limited or linked in any way to a specific type of wargear. There are also units out there with deep striking rules yet lack a jump pack, jet pack or any other obvious piece of war-gear which the special rule is applied through. They simply have it on their base model, and still can use it even with the lack of war-gear that is normally associated with deep striking.

True that some units have the deep strike rule without wargear, but some need the wargear in order to do it. Assault Marines need Jump packs in order to do so and when they do they are using those jump packs to do it. I suppose a psychic power or something could do it also, or jumping out a stormraven.

Nor, to my understanding as I am going off memory, is there a rule that states the deep striking unit can not use a jump or jet-pack after deep striking. The one you are likely thinking on limits specific types of movement after deep striking, movement types that can legally be done by all units and not just those with war-gear granting deep strike. Instead of out right limiting any war-gear, this rule instead puts the limitation on things like 'movement phase' or 'charging.' Should I be remembering properly, thrust move during the assault phase still possible even for units that deep strike in.

Yes, I was using jump packs and jet packs because of those rules in place that say they can't move in the movement phase after deepstriking. However Jet Packs can still move in the assault phase. The only point I was getting at is that just because you use a piece of wargear when deepstriking then that doesn't mean you are automatically banned from using wargear later on in the turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
Weapon mountings almost never listed. It wasn't in this case, you normally look to the model. It clearly isn't a turret.

No its not a turret. Its a head. Other fliers don't have an actual head which can in theory rotate round at an angle. This is why they had to FAQ it, because its not clear what the weapon mounting is according to the rules.

Turret mounting do not always have a 360* arc. It's arc is how much it can actually rotate. A Storm Raven turret for example cannot rotate 360*.

Reading page 72 of the rulebook says that turret mounted weapons have 360 degrees line of sight. it says this also.

"On some models, it will actually be impossible to literally move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled or because the gun has been glued in place. In this case, players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings".

In other words it is free to rotate 360 degrees even though the way the model is assembled.

And again, the base should never be used to determine weapon range or arc of sight on a vehicle. The FAQ is directly changing the rules.

I think they FAQd the base because the head is stuck in place and can't actually be used for distance measuring.

So should a Strom Raven use the Heldrake FAQ to allow using the base?

No, for the simple fact that a Stormraven is not a Heldrake and the FAQ answer says this:

"measuring all ranges from the edge of the Heldrake’s base nearest to the target unit"

Measuring from a Stormraven is not measuring from a Heldrake. The answer specifically mentions the Heldrake specifically, when measuring from the model.

The FAQ answer for Logan just says Yes & Yes. It doesn't mention that Logan only has this ability and its not clarifying that Logan's ability is unique. It's clarifying that Logan's rule is legal when deepstriking because it already works within the rules.

So.. no abilities can be used on the turn a unit arrives from reserves. Even ones that appear to be automatic such as the must choice of the PEN chip. Does this also mean that a psyker doesn't generate his warp charges?

In another vein, using psychic powers is a 'you may' choice. The PEN chip seems to read as a 'you must' choice. The codex says I absolutely MUST choose a special rule. How does one get around the 'you must' obligation in the wording of the PEN chip?

 Miri wrote:
So.. no abilities can be used on the turn a unit arrives from reserves. Even ones that appear to be automatic such as the must choice of the PEN chip. Does this also mean that a psyker doesn't generate his warp charges?

In another vein, using psychic powers is a 'you may' choice. The PEN chip seems to read as a 'you must' choice. The codex says I absolutely MUST choose a special rule. How does one get around the 'you must' obligation in the wording of the PEN chip?

read the whole thread.

Again, Darth: you are required to use the ability granted by the PEC - to choose a special rule - and this has to be done at the start of the turn.
Page 125 says you cannot use ANY ability

Your long, rambling posts ignore this simple fact. PEC grants an ability - the ability to choose a rule. You cannot do this the turn you arrive. Fact.

The fact you also ignore that what GW say, and what they do, are differnt, and use that to build you ENTIRE argument on, is also telling.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, Darth: you are required to use the ability granted by the PEC - to choose a special rule - and this has to be done at the start of the turn.
Page 125 says you cannot use ANY ability

Your long, rambling posts ignore this simple fact. PEC grants an ability - the ability to choose a rule. You cannot do this the turn you arrive. Fact.

The fact you also ignore that what GW say, and what they do, are differnt, and use that to build you ENTIRE argument on, is also telling.

Then you can't use things like chapter tactics or even have a pysker caste anything on that unit. Because why you ask? They would be using rules applied to them that must be used at "the start of the turn"

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, Darth: you are required to use the ability granted by the PEC - to choose a special rule - and this has to be done at the start of the turn.
Page 125 says you cannot use ANY ability

No I don't. It says start of the bearers movement phase, NOT start of turn. The rule on Page 125 specifys start of turn.

Your long, rambling posts ignore this simple fact. PEC grants an ability - the ability to choose a rule. You cannot do this the turn you arrive. Fact.

False. The rule on Page 125 only disallows units to use abilities or special rules at the start of the turn if it arrives from deep strike. I am neither doing this at the start of the turn and my unit does absolutely nothing. I pick the special rule, the ability is given to me and thus NOT THE UNIT.

Also, what exactly is PEC? Last time I checked it was called the Puretide Engram Neurochip (PEN). I am not using this PEC you speak of but I am using the PEN.

The fact you also ignore that what GW say, and what they do, are differnt, and use that to build you ENTIRE argument on, is also telling.

Then why does Logans rule work? i9t works because the unit isn't doing anything. The player gets to choose the special rule and then the special rule gets used in a later phase of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, Darth: you are required to use the ability granted by the PEC - to choose a special rule - and this has to be done at the start of the turn.
Page 125 says you cannot use ANY ability

Your long, rambling posts ignore this simple fact. PEC grants an ability - the ability to choose a rule. You cannot do this the turn you arrive. Fact.

The fact you also ignore that what GW say, and what they do, are differnt, and use that to build you ENTIRE argument on, is also telling.

Then you can't use things like chapter tactics or even have a pysker caste anything on that unit. Because why you ask? They would be using rules applied to them that must be used at "the start of the turn"

He is missing the point that it says that the unit can't do what he is talking about. Players and other units can still do things. He is also missing the point that the PEN doesn't give you the option to choose, it tells you to pick a rule and the unit has that rule. To not pick a special rule for the unit would be to not follow the wording for the PEN and thus you have taken BRB as being precendent over Codex, which according to page 7 of the BRB is not the case.

 DarthOvious wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, Darth: you are required to use the ability granted by the PEC - to choose a special rule - and this has to be done at the start of the turn.
Page 125 says you cannot use ANY ability

Your long, rambling posts ignore this simple fact. PEC grants an ability - the ability to choose a rule. You cannot do this the turn you arrive. Fact.

The fact you also ignore that what GW say, and what they do, are differnt, and use that to build you ENTIRE argument on, is also telling.

Then you can't use things like chapter tactics or even have a pysker caste anything on that unit. Because why you ask? They would be using rules applied to them that must be used at "the start of the turn"

He is missing the point that it says that the unit can't do what he is talking about. Players and other units can still do things. He is also missing the point that the PEN doesn't give you the option to choose, it tells you to pick a rule and the unit has that rule. To not pick a special rule for the unit would be to not follow the wording for the PEN and thus you have taken BRB as being precendent over Codex, which according to page 7 of the BRB is not the case.

Rules on page 7 is a bad point on which to discuss this particular arguement, its a passage which is often misunderstood and it won't get you very far here. I advise to move on from this point.


However, I would argue that as the ability is not 'used' by the 'unit' at the start of the turn and is therefore not subject to the restrictions on page 125, with the being intent of page 125 to stop literal abilities from use without opponent being able to act to counter (Similar from first turn infiltrators etc.). This would explain the why behind the Logan FAQ and perhaps open up to more ability timing and type discussions.


Unless I have missed it while reading through the thread, there has not been any GW defined meanings of ‘Used’ being discussed? I think this is a good direction to move the thread in and is actually the make or break point.