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I disagree Lemartes12, as page 125 only prevents an ability on the model coming from reserve from being evoked.

In the case of the pskyer, the model evoking the rule is not the target of the blessing. Page 125 does not contain any line stating any unit coming from reserve can not be targeted. Given that the model containing the psyker rule was on the table at the start of the turn, it is not bound by page 125 or the duplicate restrictions found in the psyker section of the book and can cast the ability. As there is nothing on page 125 preventing something being targeted at the start of the movement phase, nothing is preventing it from being the target of a blessing.

The chapter tactics do raise a few questions but that is because we have no clue whom is evoking the rule. Nearly every model has this rule but it is an army wide benefit that comes from it. It is therefore impossible for us to state that the model evoking the rule is one that came in from reserve, it could just as easily be one that has been on the table since deployment. Seeing we don't know for sure whom is evoking the special rule, we can not state it is denied simply because some other model came in from reserve.

As for the Puretide being a 'player choice,' I am not at all convinced. It is a single rule that can be found on a specific model, unlike chapter tactics which is almost army wide. The rule itself contains references to the bearer and the benefits is immediately applied to the bearer. There is nothing at all to suggest that it is different then other, arguably, denied abilities with similar wording simply because the player is involved in the decision making process. The ability clearly originates from a single source, so if we have a rule denying an ability being evoked from a source when it comes in from reserves....

Darth - so you assert that the start of the movement phase is NOT the start of the turn? Please find this mysterious point before the movement phase then. Page and Paragraph.

The unit is choosing the rule they will have.

You can use blessings on a unit that arrives on turn, from a psyker already on the table, because - rules. The rules on p125 only disallow you from using your own abilities.

Logan works because they FAQd him to work. NO other reason. You can argue intent all your like.

You still have no rules based argument. You are purely arguing intent. As per the rules of the forum please state this in your posts.

 Lemartes12 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, Darth: you are required to use the ability granted by the PEC - to choose a special rule - and this has to be done at the start of the turn.
Page 125 says you cannot use ANY ability

Your long, rambling posts ignore this simple fact. PEC grants an ability - the ability to choose a rule. You cannot do this the turn you arrive. Fact.

The fact you also ignore that what GW say, and what they do, are differnt, and use that to build you ENTIRE argument on, is also telling.

Then you can't use things like chapter tactics or even have a pysker caste anything on that unit. Because why you ask? They would be using rules applied to them that must be used at "the start of the turn"

Please understand the difference between a unit benefiting from an outside decision and a unit making decision. You're coming up with some interesting red herrings.

Rules on page 7 is a bad point on which to discuss this particular arguement, its a passage which is often misunderstood and it won't get you very far here. I advise to move on from this point.

Probably best. It wasn't really my main point to begin with.

However, I would argue that as the ability is not 'used' by the 'unit' at the start of the turn and is therefore not subject to the restrictions on page 125, with the being intent of page 125 to stop literal abilities from use without opponent being able to act to counter (Similar from first turn infiltrators etc.). This would explain the why behind the Logan FAQ and perhaps open up to more ability timing and type discussions.

This is the same conclusion that advanced tau tactica came up with. it was debated until the Logan FAQ was found and then it was pointed out that the unit don't use the abilities in either case but the player makes a decision and the player isn't restricted from doing so on Page 125.

Unless I have missed it while reading through the thread, there has not been any GW defined meanings of ‘Used’ being discussed? I think this is a good direction to move the thread in and is actually the make or break point.

You're right. There really isn't any direction at all this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:

I disagree Lemartes12, as page 125 only prevents an ability on the model coming from reserve from being evoked.

In the case of the pskyer, the model evoking the rule is not the target of the blessing. Page 125 does not contain any line stating any unit coming from reserve can not be targeted. Given that the model containing the psyker rule was on the table at the start of the turn, it is not bound by page 125 or the duplicate restrictions found in the psyker section of the book and can cast the ability. As there is nothing on page 125 preventing something being targeted at the start of the movement phase, nothing is preventing it from being the target of a blessing.

I agree with this assessment.

The chapter tactics do raise a few questions but that is because we have no clue whom is evoking the rule. Nearly every model has this rule but it is an army wide benefit that comes from it. It is therefore impossible for us to state that the model evoking the rule is one that came in from reserve, it could just as easily be one that has been on the table since deployment. Seeing we don't know for sure whom is evoking the special rule, we can not state it is denied simply because some other model came in from reserve.

I think the way to look at it is that the player himself is evoking it. Thats where it is coming from from and not necessarily the units involved. However this also applies to the PEN, the player evokes it, it just that the benefit later on applies to the unit.

As for the Puretide being a 'player choice,' I am not at all convinced. It is a single rule that can be found on a specific model, unlike chapter tactics which is almost army wide. The rule itself contains references to the bearer and the benefits is immediately applied to the bearer. There is nothing at all to suggest that it is different then other, arguably, denied abilities with similar wording simply because the player is involved in the decision making process. The ability clearly originates from a single source, so if we have a rule denying an ability being evoked from a source when it comes in from reserves....

What is denied though? Lets read Page 125 again.

"Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

The denial is placed on the following things

1) The Unit

2) At start of the turn

3) On abilities or special rules

4) If not stated otherwise

5) From Reserve

So the previous 5 points are descriptions for the rule to take place. Now lets look at the PEN.

"At the start of the bearers movement phase, choose one of the following special rules:................"

This is placed on the following

1) Model (Is this different from unit in this case?)

2) At the start of the bearers movement (Is this really synomonous with start of the turn or even the overall movement phase? I know some people have cited that the start of the turn and the start of the movement phase happen at the same time, but just because activity A and activity B start at the same time this does not mean that activity a is equal to activity b).

3) Wargear (Does this count as an ability? Does it give an ability and who does it give the ability to? Just the model, the unit, or the player?

4) I sit stated otherwise? Is this a case of triggered ability over activated ability?

5) I think we can assume that the unit in question with the puretide is coming in from reserve.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Darth - so you assert that the start of the movement phase is NOT the start of the turn? Please find this mysterious point before the movement phase then. Page and Paragraph.

Please show me they are the same thing. The movement phase is the movement phase, the start of the turn is the start of the turn. The only thing that has been supplied from your end of the discussion is a FAQ which clarrifys they happen at the same time. They didn't clarrify they were the same thing. Ironically enough when I provide a FAQ for Logans ability everybody then tells me I can't use the FAQ because FAQs are faulty and the guys who write them make mistake. Well in that case you can't use the FAQs to make your point either.

Now look at the way that reserves are worded. You roll for reserves first, you thn place your reserves and only then are you allowed to move the rest of your units. This would imply there is a sequence of events which state that start of turn functions happen before start of movement functions and not at the same time.

The unit is choosing the rule they will have.

No its not. For a start the signature system is one model, not the entire unit so that invalidates what you said just there. Another thing is the player gets to choose the ability. It doesn't say that this ability is the units ability and it doesn't say that the model is using anything. Even then only units are disbarred (not models) from using abilities at the start of the turn.

You can use blessings on a unit that arrives on turn, from a psyker already on the table, because - rules. The rules on p125 only disallow you from using your own abilities.

Actually, it disallows a unit from using abilities. It doesn't disallow individual models and it doesn't disallow players. The PENs ability is given to me, the result of that ability is a special rule for the unit. Note the special rule conferred happens in the shooting/assault phase of the game.

Logan works because they FAQd him to work. NO other reason. You can argue intent all your like.

Same function anyway. So you have to wonder why they FAQd him to work. Especially with an enthusiastic Yes with no further clarrification. Its almost as if he already worked within the rules as presented.

You still have no rules based argument. You are purely arguing intent. As per the rules of the forum please state this in your posts.

You can ignore the rules based arguments I have made all you like. That doesn't mean I haven't made them though.

When you get down to technicalities, it is always the player that makes a choice whenever any is presented as the models are just pieces of cheap resin. Therefore we can not simply state that the player's involvement in the process is enough to allow us to ignore limitations presented on page 125. Even if we could take that argument, in the case of chapter tactics, that player involvement in the 'choice' changes whom is using the ability then you would still need to prove the PureTide Engram Chip is designed to operates in the same way, instead of operating identical to rules with the same limitations. I am not convinced of this fact because it is a specific rule on a single model that talks about a benefit that only that model gets, which is granted to it at the specific point in time addressed by page 125.

As for your five questions:
1) The use of the word unit means it is a unit wide limitation, therefore all models within said unit are also bound by the limitation unless they have a rule specifically stating otherwise.
2) This one is technically correct from a law-rules point of view; because the term it uses is 'start of the turn' and not movement phase. The problem with this interpretation is the fact that the terminology used in the special rule section is 'start of the movement phase.' If the two are not interchangeable then we have a limitation written for rules that do not exist! Interestingly, the one ability which would seem to fit perfectly into the limitation on page 125 was overturned by FAQ....
3) War-gear grant special rules and abilities, which are then in turn used by the model that possesses the war-gear unless the rule itself tells you otherwise.
4) It doesn't matter if it was an ability triggered without choice, it would still have to deal with the limitations on page 125.
5) Of course or else there is no issue at all, as the page 125 limitation is only on units coming in from reserves.

I never said the FAQs were faulty; I stated you are making an argument for intent. One unsupported by a FAQ.

I see you are still claiming that the start of movement phase and start of turn arent the same thing. Given the rulebook defines the turn as being composed of phases, and lists no phase before the movement phase, it is also the start of the turn. Your counter? Anything?

The unit is granted an ability - the ability to choose a special rule. CHoosing is the ability.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never said the FAQs were faulty; I stated you are making an argument for intent. One unsupported by a FAQ.

I see you are still claiming that the start of movement phase and start of turn arent the same thing. Given the rulebook defines the turn as being composed of phases, and lists no phase before the movement phase, it is also the start of the turn. Your counter? Anything?

The unit is granted an ability - the ability to choose a special rule. CHoosing is the ability.

By this logic, IC's cant join squads in reserve. Joining a squad is a choice, choices are abilities, and abilities cant be used while in reserve.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never said the FAQs were faulty; I stated you are making an argument for intent. One unsupported by a FAQ.

I see you are still claiming that the start of movement phase and start of turn arent the same thing. Given the rulebook defines the turn as being composed of phases, and lists no phase before the movement phase, it is also the start of the turn. Your counter? Anything?

The unit is granted an ability - the ability to choose a special rule. CHoosing is the ability.

By this logic, IC's cant join squads in reserve. Joining a squad is a choice, choices are abilities, and abilities cant be used while in reserve.

Except the rules for IC's specifically allow it. Funny it's as if the rules actually matter.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never said the FAQs were faulty; I stated you are making an argument for intent. One unsupported by a FAQ.

I see you are still claiming that the start of movement phase and start of turn arent the same thing. Given the rulebook defines the turn as being composed of phases, and lists no phase before the movement phase, it is also the start of the turn. Your counter? Anything?

The unit is granted an ability - the ability to choose a special rule. CHoosing is the ability.

By this logic, IC's cant join squads in reserve. Joining a squad is a choice, choices are abilities, and abilities cant be used while in reserve.

Apart from page 39 explicitly allowing it. Rules matter, try giving page 39 a read before creating another fallacious argument.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never said the FAQs were faulty; I stated you are making an argument for intent. One unsupported by a FAQ.

I see you are still claiming that the start of movement phase and start of turn arent the same thing. Given the rulebook defines the turn as being composed of phases, and lists no phase before the movement phase, it is also the start of the turn. Your counter? Anything?

The unit is granted an ability - the ability to choose a special rule. CHoosing is the ability.

By this logic, IC's cant join squads in reserve. Joining a squad is a choice, choices are abilities, and abilities cant be used while in reserve.

Except the rules for IC's specifically allow it. Funny it's as if the rules actually matter.

Point is: There are many things that are choices. That does not make them "abilities" governed by rules that affect powers and abilities.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, Darth: you are required to use the ability granted by the PEC - to choose a special rule - and this has to be done at the start of the turn.
Page 125 says you cannot use ANY ability

Your long, rambling posts ignore this simple fact. PEC grants an ability - the ability to choose a rule. You cannot do this the turn you arrive. Fact.

The fact you also ignore that what GW say, and what they do, are differnt, and use that to build you ENTIRE argument on, is also telling.

Then you can't use things like chapter tactics or even have a pysker caste anything on that unit. Because why you ask? They would be using rules applied to them that must be used at "the start of the turn"

Please understand the difference between a unit benefiting from an outside decision and a unit making decision. You're coming up with some interesting red herrings.

Let me explain the whole psyker thing and blessings, by following from what I got from Jinx's arguement everything is a rule. Blessings therfore fall under that rule. While it does not affect the targeting of the unit by the wording of page 124 or 125 the unit would not be able to use the blessing because the effects are a rule which are prohibited use by the unit. Now I understand that this is not the case, but i tie it in with the whole PEN issue. The character himself isn't using the PEN. The PEN, by the wording of the Tau Codex, is just conveying the additional rules. The Rule one PG 125 does not state that Wargear is denied but ablities and rules are. Since the Wargear does NOT show up in the special rules it is not a special rule per say, and PG 125 does not specify wargear cannot use abilities. If the unit cannot be affected by the Wargear because it counts a "special rule" or "ability" then they cannot benifit from other "special Rules" such as blessings and chapter tactics that must be used at the "start of the turn" which we are, by the arguments presented by yourself and i believe Jinx and Nosferatu. I present the "red herrings" because it in fact doesn't make sense. Every player, to including myself, will agree that you can in fact benifit from blessings and chapter tactics.

No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

rigeld2 wrote:
No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

Have fun.

JinxDragon wrote:
When you get down to technicalities, it is always the player that makes a choice whenever any is presented as the models are just pieces of cheap resin. Therefore we can not simply state that the player's involvement in the process is enough to allow us to ignore limitations presented on page 125. Even if we could take that argument, in the case of chapter tactics, that player involvement in the 'choice' changes whom is using the ability then you would still need to prove the PureTide Engram Chip is designed to operates in the same way, instead of operating identical to rules with the same limitations. I am not convinced of this fact because it is a specific rule on a single model that talks about a benefit that only that model gets, which is granted to it at the specific point in time addressed by page 125.

Thats not entirely what I mean though. Yes, the players do all the moving and the shooting, and the models don't really do anything, but it specifically says in the rules that when this happens the unit is moving and shooting itself. If moving a unit, then you move up to 6", etc. So there is a direct correlation in the rules that when a player does those things it counts as the unit doing them.

Here is an example of what I mean: The new Vanguard Veterans Heroic Intervention rule:

"Vanguard Veteran Squads ignore the penallty for disordered charges. Furthermore, a Vanguard Veteran Sergeant automatically passes the Initiative test if he wishes to make a Glorious Intervention".

See how this rules applies to the unit. It specifically states that the Vanguard Veterans do it. However the PEN says at the start of the bearers movement phase choose one of the following rules. It doesn't mention that the bearer is doing anything at this point, it mentions that I should pick a rule.

As for your five questions:
1) The use of the word unit means it is a unit wide limitation, therefore all models within said unit are also bound by the limitation unless they have a rule specifically stating otherwise.

So everything that restricts a unit from doing something would also restrict an ivndividual model from doing something even in the eveny that only the model can do it? So it doesn't need to be a unit wide ability?

2) This one is technically correct from a law-rules point of view; because the term it uses is 'start of the turn' and not movement phase. The problem with this interpretation is the fact that the terminology used in the special rule section is 'start of the movement phase.' If the two are not interchangeable then we have a limitation written for rules that do not exist! Interestingly, the one ability which would seem to fit perfectly into the limitation on page 125 was overturned by FAQ....

Yes, Logans ability was a start of the turn ability and it was overturned. I agree that is something that may fit in with the rule on page 125. I don't see however start of turn being equal to start of movement phase. The reason being is that there would be no point have two different terminologies to represent the same thing. Also, what do you do if you miss the movement phase altogether? Does this mean that your shooting phase equates to the start of the turn?

In terms of things that are done at start of the turn for Tau.

1) Novo Reactors

2) Ethereal abilities

3) Warlord trait to go to ground.

This is Tau alone, lots of other things are labelled as either start of the turn or start of the movement phase. If we applied the rule on page 125 to the things at the start of the movement phase it would cause way too much trouble. For instance warp charges at done at the start of the turn. So this actually means according to strict interpretation that when psykers come in from reserves they can't actually cast any powers, because they haven't generated any warp charges to cast any powers. Not just blessings or maledictions, but ANYTHING. So warpfire powers are gone as well in this instance.

3) War-gear grant special rules and abilities, which are then in turn used by the model that possesses the war-gear unless the rule itself tells you otherwise.

Yes, but technically the PEN gives a special rule, that is its ability, its just that the player needs to pick a special rule at the start of the bearers movement phase. However the special rule itself is not used until the shooting/assault phases of the game.

4) It doesn't matter if it was an ability triggered without choice, it would still have to deal with the limitations on page 125.

It depends on what is meant by "Unless stated otherwise......". What is the scope for this? If it states that I pick a rule at the start of the bearers movement phase does this count or not?

5) Of course or else there is no issue at all, as the page 125 limitation is only on units coming in from reserves.

Yes, I just listed it to show the parameters for the rule in whole.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never said the FAQs were faulty; I stated you are making an argument for intent. One unsupported by a FAQ.

Except Logans. However when I cite Logans FAQ I get told that the writers of the FAQs don't know what they are doing and change rules all the time. So how come the FAQ that was cited for psychic powers is OK and is not just a rule change?

I see you are still claiming that the start of movement phase and start of turn arent the same thing. Given the rulebook defines the turn as being composed of phases, and lists no phase before the movement phase, it is also the start of the turn. Your counter? Anything?

I have already addressed this. Do I need to put it caps so you can understand?

ACTIVTY A STARTS AT THE SAME TIME AS ACTIVITY B. THIS HOWEVER DOESN'T MEAN THAT ACTIVITY A IS EQUAL TO ACTIVITY B.

Look it's simple. Lets say I am painting my living room wall, now lets say that my wife is washing the dishes at the same time. This does not mean painting the living room wall = washing the dishes. They are entirely different things and entirely different referrences.

The unit is granted an ability - the ability to choose a special rule. CHoosing is the ability.

I have underlines where you are wrong and I have already explained why about a million times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never said the FAQs were faulty; I stated you are making an argument for intent. One unsupported by a FAQ.

I see you are still claiming that the start of movement phase and start of turn arent the same thing. Given the rulebook defines the turn as being composed of phases, and lists no phase before the movement phase, it is also the start of the turn. Your counter? Anything?

The unit is granted an ability - the ability to choose a special rule. CHoosing is the ability.

By this logic, IC's cant join squads in reserve. Joining a squad is a choice, choices are abilities, and abilities cant be used while in reserve.

Exactly! It is allowed though because it is a pleyer choice rather than a unit action.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

Did you just say that blessings were not abilities? This is coming from the guy who wants to argue that wargear is an ability.

Shout all you like, it doesnt alter your error

The start of the movement phase is defined as the first paert of the turn. The two are equal terms. Deny this all you like, it does not alter the rules.

Regarding FAQs - our point is that they use the FAQ to change rules, such as Logans. Whcih it is - it was a rule change in 5th, and is still a rule change now. So your argument, whcih was based on the concept that FAQs do not change rules, is undermined. That is it.

The unit indeed has been granted this ability, as without the PEN they do not have the capability to choose the special rule. You may have explained, but given your faulty understanding of a basic concept, your explanation continues to be an incorrect one.

You have been told, and explained, the rules many times now. Play how you like, however please do not claim you do not know the rules.

I would still argue choosing a special rule to use does not fit GW's definition of 'use a special rule or ability which must be used at the start of the phase' this is my interpretation of the restriction, as far as I see it the unit are not using a special rule, or an ability.

This interpretation is backed up by an FAQ which addresses a similar item. Interestingly as I interpret the restriction in a simular manner I do not consider this FAQ to be a rule change at all.

Now,
At the beginning of a movement phase choosing one of X special rules, to be used during the turn [being equal to] unit using an ability or special rule which must be used at beginning of the movement phase, is an assumption, it is arguable only as fit a interpretation as mine, unless a RAW deffinition and boudaries of 'unit using an ability or special rule' can be provided. I am aware it has been mentioned in previos pages, but only interpretations of the restriction have been offered.

I see;
Is the unit using a special rule at the start of the turn? No
Is the unit using an ability at the start of the turn? No

We have seen before there IS a rules difference in if the Weapon, Model, Unit or Player is taking action. So yes, the fact the unit is doing nothing defiantly does make a difference. All rules will come from an army, unit, weapon, model, etc. But some actions are taken by players, some actions are taken by the assets. Who and what is acting impacts the rules.

Then you are aserting that chapter tatics cannot be used by units coming in from reserve?

And blessings are an ability or are they not?

Which would make them a special rule?

Which would make the effect a special rule.

Which in turn, because they take effect at the start of the movement phase (which is the timing they are resolved at) and because Start of Turn = Start of movement phase, means page 124 denies the unit to use the benifits, which are special rules.

Is this what you are saying?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now lets break down the movement phase.

The movent phase does not list sub-phases just what is to be done during the movement phase. So when does "the begining" of the movement phase end? When do you declare how a models is moving?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shout all you like, it doesnt alter your error

What error?

The start of the movement phase is defined as the first paert of the turn. The two are equal terms. Deny this all you like, it does not alter the rules.

And if you don't do any movement? Does this mean that the shooting phase is the start of the turn instead? Do they still equate then?

Lets take another example. Lets say Person A starts work at 9am and finshes work at 5pm. Now lets say that Parson A breaks his leg while at work at 9am. Does this mean that person A breaking his leg was the start of his work? No of course it doesn't.

The problem you are having here is that you think that any action taken at the start of the movement phase equates to an action taken at the start of the turn. This is not true. Although the movement phase is the first stage of a turn this does not equate movement being equal to turn. Do you notice the difference?

This is further backed up by the rules where reserve rolls are made at the start of the turn and this must be done before any movement is done. i.e. No other units are allowed to move until the reserve rolls have been made.

Regarding FAQs - our point is that they use the FAQ to change rules, such as Logans. Whcih it is - it was a rule change in 5th, and is still a rule change now. So your argument, whcih was based on the concept that FAQs do not change rules, is undermined. That is it.

So the FAQ for psyker powers and reserve rolls could be wrong? Is that what you're saying?

The unit indeed has been granted this ability, as without the PEN they do not have the capability to choose the special rule. You may have explained, but given your faulty understanding of a basic concept, your explanation continues to be an incorrect one.

It is you who is misunderstanding a basic concept. The PEN confers a special rule to the unit. One of several special rules. That is what it does. The special rule just needs to be choosen at the start of the bearers movement phase. At this point no action by the unit is actually being taken, it is just a choice. A choice is not an ability or special rule in itself. This bit is fundmentally clear. It is not an action by the unit. They are not doing anything at the start of the movement phase, they will do what they do in shooting/assault phase of the turn.

Once again, choosing something is not an ability in itself. The ability of the PEN is that confers a special rule every turn. I don't know many times I need to state this. People here are basically arguing that players can't make choices at the start of the turn or movement phase.

If we take what you say as true then the whole game gets screwed up. Lets go through it now.

1) You deepstrike a unit of tacticals in a drop pod.

2) Now your psyker from across the other end of the board can't do anything. Why? Because you're not allowed to make any choices any more in concerns to things that are done at the start of the movement phase.

You interpretation of the PEN is far too strict an interpretation. Page 125 says that units cannot use any abilities or special rules that have to be used at the start of the turn. A choice is not an ability. The special rules conferred happen later on in the turn.

You have been told, and explained, the rules many times now. Play how you like, however please do not claim you do not know the rules.

Just because I don't agree with your interpretation of the rules does not mean I am wrong in regards to the rules. You too can do what you like, except for actually play the game because you are not allowed to actually freaking do anything with any of your units because you think a players choice is actually a unit choice.

Once again the PEN confers a special rule for the unit. That is what the PEN does. Choosing that rule is not an ability or a special rule in itself.

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

Did you just say that blessings were not abilities? This is coming from the guy who wants to argue that wargear is an ability.

Just to alleviate your facepalm, how about reading the post in context?
Benefiting from a Blessing is not an ability, which is what he's asserting. Reading is fun(damental).

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

Did you just say that blessings were not abilities? This is coming from the guy who wants to argue that wargear is an ability.

Just to alleviate your facepalm, how about reading the post in context?
Benefiting from a Blessing is not an ability, which is what he's asserting. Reading is fun(damental).

How bout you go back to the post i made which says benefiting from a blessing falls under special rules by the logic you presented. Your right reading IS Fun(damental)

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

Did you just say that blessings were not abilities? This is coming from the guy who wants to argue that wargear is an ability.

Just to alleviate your facepalm, how about reading the post in context?
Benefiting from a Blessing is not an ability, which is what he's asserting. Reading is fun(damental).

So that does mean that benefiting from a choice is not an ability? Perhaps you take your own suggestion at reading things.

Lemartes12 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

Did you just say that blessings were not abilities? This is coming from the guy who wants to argue that wargear is an ability.

Just to alleviate your facepalm, how about reading the post in context?
Benefiting from a Blessing is not an ability, which is what he's asserting. Reading is fun(damental).

How bout you go back to the post i made which says benefiting from a blessing falls under special rules by the logic you presented. Your right reading IS Fun(damental)

It doesn't fall under special rules by any definition. That's where your comparison utterly fails and I'm not sure why you keep insisting that its correct. Nothing I've said supports that statement. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I've asked you once.

DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No. By saying what you did you've completely failed to actually understanding the arguments put forth and are trying to throw out things that make no sense and have no rules support.

Pro tip: Blessings are not special rules or abilities. That's just one thing wrong with your assertion.

I'm done here - feel free to pretend you're correct but I'm done allowing you to troll me like you have.

Did you just say that blessings were not abilities? This is coming from the guy who wants to argue that wargear is an ability.

Just to alleviate your facepalm, how about reading the post in context?
Benefiting from a Blessing is not an ability, which is what he's asserting. Reading is fun(damental).

So that does mean that benefiting from a choice is not an ability? Perhaps you take your own suggestion at reading things.

Benefiting from another unit's choice is not an ability the unit that arrives from reserves is using.
How hard is that to grasp? Apparently impossible for some people.

rigeld2 wrote:
Benefiting from another unit's choice is not an ability the unit that arrives from reserves is using.
How hard is that to grasp? Apparently impossible for some people.

Apparently its hard for you to grasp that me making a choice for a special rule is not an ability of the unit.

Once again, the PEN provides a special rule, that is its ability. I am only choosing what special rule it gets, the unit is not using said special rule at this point.

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Benefiting from another unit's choice is not an ability the unit that arrives from reserves is using.
How hard is that to grasp? Apparently impossible for some people.

Apparently its hard for you to grasp that me making a choice for a special rule is not an ability of the unit.

Once again, the PEN provides a special rule, that is its ability. I am only choosing what special rule it gets, the unit is not using said special rule at this point.

You keep bringing up the bolded point even after being told - repeatedly - that it's irrelevant.
WRT the italics - What are you denied permission to do when coming in from Reserves? Hint - it's the reason this thread exists and it's on page 125.

 Lemartes12 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
As for the 'war-gear is not an ability or special rule' I still have to disagree.

Everything, everything , everything , is a basic or specialized rule of which the vast majority falls under the 'specialized' side of those two categories. When you use a piece of war-gear you are evoking a special rule granted by being in 'possession' of that piece of war-gear. For example; the weapon profile for a boltgun is nothing more then a list of special rules that are evoked when you fire said weapon. This is all covered in the first section of the rule book, unfortunately I do not know the exact page off the top of my head but I want to say around 9 or 10. It doesn't matter if the rule is granted by a piece of war-gear or straight to the model itself, it is still a special rule as defined by the book and can be limited by anything that states it affects 'special rule.'

It is actually part of a problem for certain rule debates because we do not have guidance on how to resolve conflicts between certain specialized rules.

According to this comment everything is a special rule. So either the Wargear is not a special rule or ability. Or it is. Which would keep blessings (which would be special rules) from affecting the unit since they cannot benifit from the rule. Which would keep the UM chapter Tactics from working.

So what is it?

When i made this statement you did in fact not answer the question. I underlined the main point of my remark. That everything is a rule special or otherwise. Now so as not to Put words into your mouth tell me where does the benefit of blessings fall. And again. PG. 125 does not prevent wargear from being used.

 Lemartes12 wrote:
When i made this statement you did in fact not answer the question. I underlined the main point of my remark. That everything is a rule special or otherwise. Now so as not to Put words into your mouth tell me where does the benefit of blessings fall. And again. PG. 125 does not prevent wargear from being used.

I disagree that everything is a special rule. I've never said that it is - you've been assuming I have.
edit: And I did answer it, just not in a very direct fashion - I apologize for that. The fact that I disagreed with the conclusion and said that there was no basis in the rules for it should have indicated that I disagreed with the premise as well... but it wasn't as clear as I'd hoped.

Your wargear grants an ability, yes? (to choose a special rule) What's denied by page 125?
Wargear that lets you shoot - not an ability.
Wargear that grants FNP? Special rule, but is not one that *must* be used at the start of the movement phase.

Thank you for asking instead of assuming.

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Benefiting from another unit's choice is not an ability the unit that arrives from reserves is using.
How hard is that to grasp? Apparently impossible for some people.

Apparently its hard for you to grasp that me making a choice for a special rule is not an ability of the unit.

Once again, the PEN provides a special rule, that is its ability. I am only choosing what special rule it gets, the unit is not using said special rule at this point.

To go with this i wouldn't even call it an ability. But even if you were to call it that, it wouldn't even be used by the Character the way it is worded. It doesn't even say that the model uses it. The player chooses a special rule, then the model gets that rule. Whereas equipment like the neruoweb jamer says the model targets another model with it. The only two points where it refers to the model is
"at the start of the bearers turn" which tells you when to use it and "that model" which says who it targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:
When i made this statement you did in fact not answer the question. I underlined the main point of my remark. That everything is a rule special or otherwise. Now so as not to Put words into your mouth tell me where does the benefit of blessings fall. And again. PG. 125 does not prevent wargear from being used.

I disagree that everything is a special rule. I've never said that it is - you've been assuming I have.
edit: And I did answer it, just not in a very direct fashion - I apologize for that. The fact that I disagreed with the conclusion and said that there was no basis in the rules for it should have indicated that I disagreed with the premise as well... but it wasn't as clear as I'd hoped.

Your wargear grants an ability, yes? (to choose a special rule) What's denied by page 125?
Wargear that lets you shoot - not an ability.
Wargear that grants FNP? Special rule, but is not one that *must* be used at the start of the movement phase.

Thank you for asking instead of assuming.

Now that i know you agree everything is not a special rule or ability (I wish you would have stated that much earlier) i appologize for assuming that you agreed with that statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:
When i made this statement you did in fact not answer the question. I underlined the main point of my remark. That everything is a rule special or otherwise. Now so as not to Put words into your mouth tell me where does the benefit of blessings fall. And again. PG. 125 does not prevent wargear from being used.

I disagree that everything is a special rule. I've never said that it is - you've been assuming I have.
edit: And I did answer it, just not in a very direct fashion - I apologize for that. The fact that I disagreed with the conclusion and said that there was no basis in the rules for it should have indicated that I disagreed with the premise as well... but it wasn't as clear as I'd hoped.

Your wargear grants an ability, yes? (to choose a special rule) What's denied by page 125?
The unit is denied to use it
Wargear that lets you shoot - not an ability.
Wargear that grants FNP? Special rule, but is not one that *must* be used at the start of the movement phase.

Thank you for asking instead of assuming.

To go with this reading the rule again and again and again and again no where in the use of the PEN does it say the Model uses the ability. See my earlier comment about where it references the model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Puretide Engram Neurochip
"At the start of the bearer movement phase When to use it, choose one of the following special rules. counter-attack, furious charge, monster hunter, stubborn or tank hunter. The model with the puretide engram neurochip has that special rule until the start of his next movement phase. who it targets and when the effect ends"

qouted the rule says at no time the model uses the ability. whereas...

Neuroweb System Jamer
At the start of each enemy Shooting phase When to use it, a model with a Neuroweb System Jammer can use it Specifies that the model with it is using it to target a single enemy unit within 12" who its targeting. All shooting attacks gain the Gets Hot special rule until the end of the phase when the effect ends"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just went ahead and quoted it straight from the book. So everyone knows red is stuff i added to it not part of the quote so as not to cause any confusion.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Benefiting from another unit's choice is not an ability the unit that arrives from reserves is using.
How hard is that to grasp? Apparently impossible for some people.

Apparently its hard for you to grasp that me making a choice for a special rule is not an ability of the unit.

Once again, the PEN provides a special rule, that is its ability. I am only choosing what special rule it gets, the unit is not using said special rule at this point.

You keep bringing up the bolded point even after being told - repeatedly - that it's irrelevant.
WRT the italics - What are you denied permission to do when coming in from Reserves? Hint - it's the reason this thread exists and it's on page 125.

I am not ignoring anything, look at the wroding again for the PEN.

"At the start of the bearer's Movement phase, choose one of the following special rules: XXX, XXX, XXX or XXX, The model with the Puretide Engram Neurochip has that special rule until the start of his next Movement phase."

Choosing a rule is not using said rule. I only have to choose what rule the bearer of the PEN will get.

Page 125 says that a unit can't USE any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn when it has deepstriked.

Its fundamentally clear that the PEN provides a special rule a turn. All I am doing is choosing which special rule it has for that turn. The unit is doing nothing here, I AM MAKING THE CHOICE, the unit will use the special rule when it needs to use the special rule.

You argue that the PEN provides an ability to choose a special rule but who is making that choice? I make the choice, not the unit. This is fundamentally clear from the way that other rules are worded. I have already provided the wording of the Vanguard Veterans rule. Lets look at some others.

Honour or Death: A model with this sepcial rule must always issue and accept a challenge whenever possible.

Decimator Protocols: Centurions can fire up to two weapons in each Shooting phase.

Skies of fury: If the Stormraven has moved more than 6", passengers can still disembark, but they must do so as follows:

Etc, etc.

Look at all the above rules, they apply to the units or models themselves. The rule for the PEN only refers to the bearer in third person in reference to the bearers movement phase, it then asks me to make a choice. The model then has that special rule for the turn. The only thing in this process which is being applied to the model is the special rule every turn. The choice applies to me, the player. Please note that me the player =/= a unit.

If player choices are limited by the rule on page 125 then how do you get to choose where you want to place your deepstriking units? Afterall, placing your deepstriking units must happen at the start of the movement phase. So how can you place them if your choices as a player are restricted by this rule? You end up in a situation where you are not allowed to place your units because you are not allowed to make a choice where to place them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Your wargear grants an ability, yes? (to choose a special rule) What's denied by page 125?

It denies units, it doesn't deny players to make a choice. Why would me making a choice be denied by a rule that restricts units from doing things?

Wargear that lets you shoot - not an ability.

So why would wargear that lets me choose something be an ability conferred to the unit?

Wargear that grants FNP? Special rule, but is not one that *must* be used at the start of the movement phase.

FNP is a special rule which applies to models/units.

 DarthOvious wrote:
All I am doing is choosing which special rule it has for that turn.

And what allows you to make that choice? Is it the unit using wargear?

rigeld2 wrote:

Your wargear grants an ability, yes? (to choose a special rule) What's denied by page 125?

It denies units, it doesn't deny players to make a choice. Why would me making a choice be denied by a rule that restricts units from doing things?

Because the unit is doing something that allows you that choice.

Wargear that lets you shoot - not an ability.

So why would wargear that lets me choose something be an ability conferred to the unit?

They're two totally incomparable things. It's wargear the *unit* posesses. That wargear, when used, allows you to make a choice.

Wargear that grants FNP? Special rule, but is not one that *must* be used at the start of the movement phase.

FNP is a special rule which applies to models/units.

... and? Relevancy please?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
All I am doing is choosing which special rule it has for that turn.

And what allows you to make that choice? Is it the unit using wargear?
By the wording for it, no you are, all it is saying is when it is used and who it targets.

rigeld2 wrote:

Your wargear grants an ability, yes? (to choose a special rule) What's denied by page 125?

It denies units, it doesn't deny players to make a choice. Why would me making a choice be denied by a rule that restricts units from doing things?

Because the unit is doing something that allows you that choice.
The unit itself is not doing anything, the wargear is just asking "hey i have to give a rule to this guy what do you(the player) want

Wargear that lets you shoot - not an ability.

So why would wargear that lets me choose something be an ability conferred to the unit?

They're two totally incomparable things. It's wargear the *unit* posesses. That wargear, when used, allows you to make a choice.
wargear is not denied by PG. 125.

Wargear that grants FNP? Special rule, but is not one that *must* be used at the start of the movement phase.

FNP is a special rule which applies to models/units.

... and? Relevancy please?

and your right on this point