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Wargear isnt denied, but abilities are. Making a choice IS an ability, as it is something you could not do without the wargear.

Very simple concept - darth, lemartes etc deny that the ability to make a choice is an ability. This is so clearly wrong it is hard to explain how.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wargear isnt denied, but abilities are. Making a choice IS an ability, as it is something you could not do without the wargear.

Very simple concept - darth, lemartes etc deny that the ability to make a choice is an ability. This is so clearly wrong it is hard to explain how.

You need to explain why it is wrong otherwise your statements comes off as "that its wrong because i don't agree with what your saying"

And say i agree the wargear is an ability. The unit itself still isn't using it. It doesn't check against the unit. It checks against me. So unless i decide to deepstrike myself onto the table(which i don't think either my FLGS owner or my opponent will appreciate) how can i not make a choice which, by the wording, i am required to make every turn.

going to requote PG 125 for reference:

Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from deepstrike.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wargear isnt denied, but abilities are. Making a choice IS an ability, as it is something you could not do without the wargear.

Very simple concept - darth, lemartes etc deny that the ability to make a choice is an ability. This is so clearly wrong it is hard to explain how.

Also please stop being condesending. It doesn't help your argument.

DathOvious,

1) Unless the rules involve tell you otherwise, of course. Now most of the rules that deal with 'model level' events are worded it will usually give you either direct permission to evoke the rule at the model level, or provide a trigger event that is something that happens at the model stage. However, if I had a rule preventing me from moving a unit that turn I could not argue that moving the models individually allows me to ignore that unit wide limitation.

2) The others pointing out why you can not use this FAQ are correct: It is too precise, addressing a single character in a single codex. As codex's already have permission to be exception to the standard rules, and specific rules even more so, we can not use this as evidence of intent. It is impossible for us to tell if the writer intended it to be a 'this character only exception' or of they did intend for it to re-write the entire rule-set for all. If this was within the basic rule book FAQ it would have a lot more grounds to be considered a more 'general interpenetration' that would allow it to be applied to all.

However, I personally find it quite interesting that this particular ability was FAQ'ed away from page 125 because it seemed a prime case file for page 125! The fact they have used two terminologies bother me, it is a sign that they need better editors as this occurs quite a few times throughout the rule books. Then they go ahead and deny the rule being applied to the one terminology that matches... makes it hard for me to know what to think.

3) I do see you issue with the wording because it is a little vague. It does not state whom is making the choice, opening the interpretation that it could very well be an outside source that 'uses' the ability and not the model in question. Seeing as that outside source would not be arriving from reserves it wouldn't be bound by the limitations on page 125. I do not know if I can accept this argument, it does not state the player makes the choice and everything else directly relates to the model. Even the very sentence granting permission does state the word 'bearer' without clarifying whom makes the choice.

4) Unless stated elsewise is clearly that; the rule would have to state that it has permission to ignore page 125. For example: A special ability stating that a unit can charge on the turn they come in from reserve would directly over-turn page 125's limitation on charging. A special ability, used at the start of the turn, that states it is evoked when the model comes in from reserves would also overturn page 125.

JinxDragon wrote:
DathOvious,

1) Unless the rules involve tell you otherwise, of course. Now most of the rules that deal with 'model level' events are worded it will usually give you either direct permission to evoke the rule at the model level, or provide a trigger event that is something that happens at the model stage. However, if I had a rule preventing me from moving a unit that turn I could not argue that moving the models individually allows me to ignore that unit wide limitation.

2) The others pointing out why you can not use this FAQ are correct: It is too precise, addressing a single character in a single codex. As codex's already have permission to be exception to the standard rules, and specific rules even more so, we can not use this as evidence of intent. It is impossible for us to tell if the writer intended it to be a 'this character only exception' or of they did intend for it to re-write the entire rule-set for all. If this was within the basic rule book FAQ it would have a lot more grounds to be considered a more 'general interpenetration' that would allow it to be applied to all.

However, I personally find it quite interesting that this particular ability was FAQ'ed away from page 125 because it seemed a prime case file for page 125! The fact they have used two terminologies bother me, it is a sign that they need better editors as this occurs quite a few times throughout the rule books. Then they go ahead and deny the rule being applied to the one terminology that matches... makes it hard for me to know what to think.

3) I do see you issue with the wording because it is a little vague. It does not state whom is making the choice, opening the interpretation that it could very well be an outside source that 'uses' the ability and not the model in question. Seeing as that outside source would not be arriving from reserves it wouldn't be bound by the limitations on page 125. I do not know if I can accept this argument, it does not state the player makes the choice and everything else directly relates to the model. Even the very sentence granting permission does state the word 'bearer' without clarifying whom makes the choice.

4) Unless stated elsewise is clearly that; the rule would have to state that it has permission to ignore page 125. For example: A special ability stating that a unit can charge on the turn they come in from reserve would directly over-turn page 125's limitation on charging. A special ability, used at the start of the turn, that states it is evoked when the model comes in from reserves would also overturn page 125.

Not trying to get into a huge debate, but I think you mean "states when the model arives from deep strike." The way you wrote that, the model wouldn't be able to use the special ability otherwise.

Iirc the start of the turn is when you roll for blessing/male dictions and reserves. Then the movement phase. I move everything on from reserves, at that point the buff commander can choose an ability at the start of its movement, and move on the board. It is quite simple that the unit will benefit from tank hunter or the like on the turn it arrives from reserves SINCE IT COMES AFTER THE START OF THE TURN. ie blessings and maledictions and reserve rolls...

Lungpickle wrote:
Iirc the start of the turn is when you roll for blessing/male dictions and reserves. Then the movement phase.

There is no phase before the movement phase (unless you want to count your opponents assault phase). The start of the turn would be the start of the movement phase.

 grendel083 wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Iirc the start of the turn is when you roll for blessing/male dictions and reserves. Then the movement phase.

There is no phase before the movement phase (unless you want to count your opponents assault phase). The start of the turn would be the start of the movement phase.

so.... when does the begging of the movent phase end. Cite it for me in the BRB because i find nothing that states the beggining ever ends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also if the begining of turn=begining of movement phase cite that rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

All I am doing is choosing which special rule it has for that turn.

And what allows you to make that choice? Is it the unit using wargear?

I am not a unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

Your wargear grants an ability, yes? (to choose a special rule) What's denied by page 125?

That's units do things, not players.

It denies units, it doesn't deny players to make a choice. Why would me making a choice be denied by a rule that restricts units from doing things?

Because the unit is doing something that allows you that choice.

No its not. The PEN grants a special rule, I just need to choose the rule that will be used later at that point. It's to stop from choosing a rule out of convenience later on if things turn different from what I expected.

Wargear that lets you shoot - not an ability.

So why would wargear that lets me choose something be an ability conferred to the unit?

They're two totally incomparable things. It's wargear the *unit* posesses. That wargear, when used, allows you to make a choice.

No the wargear grants a special rule, I just need to choose which one it is. At no point in that sentence does it say that the model is using it at that point. It just says I need to choose a special rule.

Wargear that grants FNP? Special rule, but is not one that *must* be used at the start of the movement phase.

FNP is a special rule which applies to models/units.

... and? Relevancy please?

I am a player, not a unit.


Also, what do people think about apocalypse? Do they consider it a completely different gaming system? Because the apocalypse turn is listed as this.

1. Determine Unnatural Disasters

2. 1st side player turn
a) Determine Devine Intervention
b) Declare Finest Hours
c) Take Player Turn (As described in the Warhammer 40k rulebook)

3. 2nd Side Player Turn
a) Determine Devine Intervention
b) Declare Finest Hours
c) Take Player Turn (As described in the Warhammer 40k rulebook)

However, when you look at Devine Intervention section it says this: "At the start of each of your turns after the first turn..........."

If you also read Finest Hours it says this: "A Player may choose to take his Warlord's FInest Hour Once per game, at the start of any of their turns..............."

This set up for apocalypse would seem to suggest that start of the turn actions come before Start of the movement actions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Wargear isnt denied, but abilities are. Making a choice IS an ability, as it is something you could not do without the wargear.

Yes but the ability is given to the player not the unit. Only units are denied by the rule on Page 125.

Very simple concept - darth, lemartes etc deny that the ability to make a choice is an ability. This is so clearly wrong it is hard to explain how.

You've actually just confirmed that the PEN can be used by your statement above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lungpickle wrote:
Iirc the start of the turn is when you roll for blessing/male dictions and reserves. Then the movement phase. I move everything on from reserves, at that point the buff commander can choose an ability at the start of its movement, and move on the board. It is quite simple that the unit will benefit from tank hunter or the like on the turn it arrives from reserves SINCE IT COMES AFTER THE START OF THE TURN. ie blessings and maledictions and reserve rolls...

Its being argued that start of the turn and start of the movement phase are the same thing. Although they happen at the same time I argue that they are not the same thing since they are two different references. The reason for this is because a turn is not just comprised of movement, it is a turn. If you miss your movement phase and go right to shooting does this mean that your shooting phase starts at the same time as the turn starts? Technically yes as there is no movement.

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Iirc the start of the turn is when you roll for blessing/male dictions and reserves. Then the movement phase.

There is no phase before the movement phase (unless you want to count your opponents assault phase). The start of the turn would be the start of the movement phase.

so.... when does the begging of the movent phase end. Cite it for me in the BRB because i find nothing that states the beggining ever ends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also if the begining of turn=begining of movement phase cite that rule.

No one going to answer this?

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Iirc the start of the turn is when you roll for blessing/male dictions and reserves. Then the movement phase.

There is no phase before the movement phase (unless you want to count your opponents assault phase). The start of the turn would be the start of the movement phase.

so.... when does the begging of the movent phase end. Cite it for me in the BRB because i find nothing that states the beggining ever ends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also if the begining of turn=begining of movement phase cite that rule.

No one going to answer this?

Sorry, i assumed you would have just looked it up by now. It's a very simple one to find.
Page 9 "The Turn"
This lays out all the phases in a turn. You'll note that there is nothing before the movement phase.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
Iirc the start of the turn is when you roll for blessing/male dictions and reserves. Then the movement phase.

There is no phase before the movement phase (unless you want to count your opponents assault phase). The start of the turn would be the start of the movement phase.

so.... when does the begging of the movent phase end. Cite it for me in the BRB because i find nothing that states the beggining ever ends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also if the begining of turn=begining of movement phase cite that rule.

No one going to answer this?

Sorry, i assumed you would have just looked it up by now. It's a very simple one to find.
Page 9 "The Turn"
This lays out all the phases in a turn. You'll note that there is nothing before the movement phase.

I looked all over that page and no where does it refer to the start of the movent phase as the start of the turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mind telling me what paragraph says it?

Since there is nothing that happens before the movement phase, the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are the same by definition.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Since there is nothing that happens before the movement phase, the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are the same by definition.

Cite something that says that please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im going to take something out of Darths book.

Say your at the bank to get money out.
That bank gets robbed while your there.

Does that mean you robbed the bank becuase it was happening at the same time?

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Since there is nothing that happens before the movement phase, the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are the same by definition.

Cite something that says that please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im going to take something out of Darths book.

Say your at the bank to get money out.
That bank gets robbed while your there.

Does that mean you robbed the bank becuase it was happening at the same time?

Reserves happen at the beginning of the turn.
Blessings happen at the beginning of the movement phase.

"Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

This FAQ reinforces that those two terms are interchangeable.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Since there is nothing that happens before the movement phase, the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are the same by definition.

Cite something that says that please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im going to take something out of Darths book.

Say your at the bank to get money out.
That bank gets robbed while your there.

Does that mean you robbed the bank becuase it was happening at the same time?

Reserves happen at the beginning of the turn.
Blessings happen at the beginning of the movement phase.

"Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

This FAQ reinforces that those two terms are interchangeable.

I was wondering if someone would bring this up. And no it only reinforces that they happend at the same time. Underlined the key phrase. It does not specifically say they are same thing.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Since there is nothing that happens before the movement phase, the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are the same by definition.

I can't agree with this. This is a set of rules where words and phrases are given meaning so That they can later be referenced - something must be defined as equivalent for it to be equivalent. Just because X always happens at Y doesn't mean that Y = X.

There is currently nothing between the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase, but there could be. Consider if the PEN rules called for a choice 'after the beginning of the turn but before the beginning of the movement phase.' That space exists because the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are never defined as one piece of the timeline that makes up the turn. Currently, there is nothing between the two, but that doesn,'t mean that we can destroy the potential for that space to be filled.

goes back to this question.

Say your at the bank to get money out.
That bank gets robbed while your there.

Does that mean you robbed the bank becuase it was happening at the same time?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rapture wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Since there is nothing that happens before the movement phase, the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are the same by definition.

I can't agree with this. This is a set of rules where words and phrases are given meaning so That they can later be referenced - something must be defined as equivalent for it to be equivalent. Just because X always happens at Y doesn't mean that Y = X.

There is currently nothing between the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase, but there could be. Consider if the PEN rules called for a choice 'after the beginning of the turn but before the beginning of the movement phase.' That space exists because the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are never defined as one piece of the timeline that makes up the turn. Currently, there is nothing between the two, but that doesn,'t mean that we can destroy the potential for that space to be filled.

^this is correct wording.

I think that's an irrelevant distinction. If you'd be so polite as to explain the relevancy however...

rigeld2 wrote:
I think that's an irrelevant distinction. If you'd be so polite as to explain the relevancy however...

what is?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i ask so as not to assume to know what your talking about.

 Lemartes12 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I think that's an irrelevant distinction. If you'd be so polite as to explain the relevancy however...

what is?

The difference between the start of the turn and the start of the movement phase if you're agreeing they are simultaneous.
The PEC must be used at the same time that you're forbidden from using abilities.

well i need to get some sleep so in the event your talking about my question it goes along with raptures coment

x happens
y happens at the same time

Nothing specifically states X=Y.
That is just an assumption everyone is making. And from what i have gotten from you it is bad to make assumptions in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I think that's an irrelevant distinction. If you'd be so polite as to explain the relevancy however...

what is?

The difference between the start of the turn and the start of the movement phase if you're agreeing they are simultaneous.
The PEC must be used at the same time that you're forbidden from using abilities.

Well you beat me to the repost. And now that i futher know what your asking ill answer it if i can.
The wording. Just because they happen at the same time doesn't mean they fufil the same paramaters.

Which goes back to my question,if you would be so kind as to answer.
You are at the bank getting money.
While you are getting your money the bank gets robbed.

Did you rob the bank?
Or is it just happening at the same time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ill look for your reply tomorrow.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Since there is nothing that happens before the movement phase, the beginning of the turn and the beginning of the movement phase are the same by definition.

Cite something that says that please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im going to take something out of Darths book.

Say your at the bank to get money out.
That bank gets robbed while your there.

Does that mean you robbed the bank becuase it was happening at the same time?

Reserves happen at the beginning of the turn.
Blessings happen at the beginning of the movement phase.

"Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

This FAQ reinforces that those two terms are interchangeable.

Apparently we're not using FAQs because the writers of those FAQs are stupid according to some people because they FAQ'd Logans start of turn rule to work while deepstriking and then assume its because it must be a rule change rather than a clarification that a player picking a rule at the start of the turn isn't a unit doing anything.

Also just because they happen at the same time then that does not mean they are the same thing. Activity A and Activity B occurring at the same time does not mean that activity A = Activity B. So when a rule says start of turn, that does not necessarily equate to start of movement phase. Its very common that when you arrange events in plans that they start at the same time. A sub-section of that plan may also start at the same time as the plan starts but that doesn't mean that the first task of that sub-level is referrenced the same level as the first tier of the plan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lemartes12 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I think that's an irrelevant distinction. If you'd be so polite as to explain the relevancy however...

what is?

The difference between the start of the turn and the start of the movement phase if you're agreeing they are simultaneous.
The PEC must be used at the same time that you're forbidden from using abilities.

It doesn't matter. The reference to turn or movement changes it. It would be the same way in a plan. If my boss was to ask me what was happening at the start of sub-section B, then just because sub-section B starts at the same time as the plan then that doesn't mean he is referencing the start of plan. He is still referencing the start of sub-section B.

 DarthOvious wrote:
Apparently we're not using FAQs because the writers of those FAQs are stupid according to some people because they FAQ'd Logans start of turn rule to work while deepstriking and then assume its because it must be a rule change rather than a clarification that a player picking a rule at the start of the turn isn't a unit doing anything.

Please do not misstate what people have said. That's impolite. I've done you that courtesy. No one has said that the writers of the FAQs are stupid except you.

Also just because they happen at the same time then that does not mean they are the same thing. Activity A and Activity B occurring at the same time does not mean that activity A = Activity B. So when a rule says start of turn, that does not necessarily equate to start of movement phase. Its very common that when you arrange events in plans that they start at the same time. A sub-section of that plan may also start at the same time as the plan starts but that doesn't mean that the first task of that sub-level is referrenced the same level as the first tier of the plan.

We already know - factually - that the start of the movement phase starts at the same time as the start of the turn.

It doesn't matter. The reference to turn or movement changes it. It would be the same way in a plan. If my boss was to ask me what was happening at the start of sub-section B, then just because sub-section B starts at the same time as the plan then that doesn't mean he is referencing the start of plan. He is still referencing the start of sub-section B.

I disagree with that statement. Also, the relevancy hasn't been shown yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lemartes12 wrote:
well i need to get some sleep so in the event your talking about my question it goes along with raptures coment

x happens
y happens at the same time

Nothing specifically states X=Y.
That is just an assumption everyone is making. And from what i have gotten from you it is bad to make assumptions in this thread.

One word - Relevancy. Please show it. I've asked twice now. Asking cryptic questions doesn't help.

you never did answer the question.
"Which goes back to my question,if you would be so kind as to answer.
You are at the bank getting money.
While you are getting your money the bank gets robbed.

Did you rob the bank?
Or is it just happening at the same time"

im guessing you missed the post. so as i stated before it is wording. One does not fufuile the same paramaters as the other. TURN and Movement being the key words.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lemartes12 wrote:
you never did answer the question.
"Which goes back to my question,if you would be so kind as to answer.
You are at the bank getting money. = x
While you are getting your money the bank gets robbed. = y

Did you rob the bank?
Or is it just happening at the same time"

im guessing you missed the post. so as i stated before it is wording. One does not fufuile the same paramaters as the other. TURN and Movement being the key words.

PG. 125 Speciffically deniesStart of the turn Abilites, and rules. and then Charging.

The only way to say that you can't use start of the movement phase abilities when deepstriking is to find the Ruling from Games Workshop that specifically states.
X=Y
in this case
X= start of the movement phase
Y= Start of the turn.
X and Y happen at the same time but do NOT trigger the same effects.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you can find that then i will conceed this arguement.

Darth - so yet again you are misquoting people.

Noone said the writers are stupid - except for you. We said that the statement that FAQs do not change rules is, objectively, wrong, because they HAVE changed rules in FAQs.

There is quite a lot of difference between the two.

If you cannot debate honestly, you will find that there will be fewer people willing to debate you

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Darth - so yet again you are misquoting people.

Noone said the writers are stupid - except for you. We said that the statement that FAQs do not change rules is, objectively, wrong, because they HAVE changed rules in FAQs.

There is quite a lot of difference between the two.

If you cannot debate honestly, you will find that there will be fewer people willing to debate you

And you cannot debate by avoiding the actual debate. Your attacking specific people also does not help your cuase.
If you can not answer the simple question then i have to assume you have no counter arguement.

You can assume anything you like. You would be wrong.

There just comes a point when there isnt a debate, just people arguing. There's quite a key difference


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and it isnt an attack - it is the literal truth. They havent debated honestly, as they have deliberately misrepresented others and their views. Not just once, but multiple times.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You can assume anything you like. You would be wrong.

There just comes a point when there isnt a debate, just people arguing. There's quite a key difference


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and it isnt an attack - it is the literal truth. They havent debated honestly, as they have deliberately misrepresented others and their views. Not just once, but multiple times.

^this is Still avoiding the question i posted to the thread. And like i said before, just saying someone is wrong is using the arguement " your wrong because i don't agree with you"
Only in this case its "your wrong because i don't agree with you and i have no counter to your statement so im going reply to a different part of the thread." It was a simple yes or no question in the first place. You have no valid counter-arguement and are avoiding the question.

Incorrect, I was talking about Darths misrepresentation of the FAQ writers and what people wrote about them. Darth was, factually, incorrect. Absolutely. Proven.

You are also misrepresenting others arguments, and have also done so consistently. Its why I have no interest in debating with you.

Do not mistake that for not having an argument. I do, and have countered yoru argument ad infintium. This is the argument vs debate point I was making.

HAHA ok if you say so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For those who still want to "debate" "argue" discuss whatever we are now calling this. Can anyone answer my question. Or site somehting that specifically states Turn = movephase