Dark Elves 8th What are we hoping for?

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**Experiment 626**

zilka86 wrote:
If matt ward really wrote the codex they will be a op arm

No, they could be one of three things actually;
1. Overall a well balanced internally book that would be solid, except for a couple of obscenely glaring stand-outs that make everyone mass facepalm at their sheer stupidity... (see High Elves or 5th ed Codex Marines as a perfect example)

2. An internally balanced mess with a whole bunch of obvious standout must-haves, while the other half of the book leaves your sides splitting laughing at how overcosted/useless they are. Still capable of producing a stupidly strong list or two, but with the effect that every competitive army will look almost identical. (see Daemons of Chaos as an example)

3. OP to the point you'll make opponents weep. Maybe you'll even have some stupidly insane hard-counter that pretty much renders an entire book or three virtually unplayable in a competitive setting!? (see 7th ed Daemons & 5th ed Grey Knights as a perfect example)

I really hope Dark Elves get option 1. A solidly well-rounded book overall, but likely with a token item or unit that stands out as being an epic-facepalm WFT? moment.
Sadly with the recent rules leaks, things might be sliding a wee bit towards option 3...

In the end I think the final telling point will be what models/units gain the ASF & new Murderous Prowess rules... If you've got for example an army of basically S3 across the board that re-rolls 1's to-wound, it's not so bad when they still on average need 4's or 5's to-wound. But if things like Cold Ones and the monsters suddenly get those options... well, I think we can all guess what the non-Dark Elf players will think of that!

**The Shadow**

Warriors have almost doubled in points though. The new rules don't seem that great when you bear that in mind.

**Red Viper**

The Shadow wrote:
Warriors have almost doubled in points though. The new rules don't seem that great when you bear that in mind.

I think the initial math was off.

Now the same site (http://plastickrak.blogspot.com/2013/09/dark-elves-rules-leaks.html) says they are 9 points.

So they still went up, but with Murderous Prowess and ASF, I think 9 sounds fair.

**nathan2004**

That's beyond fair it makes them a viable cc unit IMO especially if the sign spell rumor turns out to be true, 8+ +1 strength +d3 power dice spell. Eternal Hatred is staying (for some units), they are gaining ASF, and MP. You didn't lose any Special rules, you gained them how could you be upset with that?

**The Shadow**

Nine points does seem more than fair, but is that with or without shields?

**Pervertdhermit**

Just look at High Elf spearmen. That is the price we will most likely be paying.

ASF is a wash and, presumably, martial prowess is swapped for the murderous variety.

As for equipment, either spears or shields will come standard, I think one or the other will be a 1pt bump, but for no real reason.

On the topic of murderous prowess... My feeling is that it will only apply to combat, which is actually ok because re-rolling 1s to wound for shooting would be too sick, but HE do get their second special rule for shooting and combat... so who knows.

Thoughts?

**Red Viper**

nathan2004 wrote:
That's beyond fair it makes them a viable cc unit IMO especially if the sign spell rumor turns out to be true, 8+ +1 strength +d3 power dice spell. Eternal Hatred is staying (for some units), they are gaining ASF, and MP. You didn't lose any Special rules, you gained them how could you be upset with that?

I'm not upset at all. So far I'm cautiously optimistic. All the rules we've heard so far sound good to me. I'm kinda bummed it sounds like the Cauldron has bound spells now, but that wasn't a surprise.

I'm mainly worried about the magic items at this point.

**The Shadow**

Well, all new Army Books have less Magic Items. Though HE had a good selection, so I'm fairly optimistic in that regard. To be honest though, we're going to lose the Pendant as we know it and probably the Sacrificial Dagger too, but I'm less sure on that one, since it's such an iconic item for the DE, in a similar way the Book of Hoeth is for HE.

**nathan2004**

Keeping the Dagger and losing the Pendant is confirmed. 25 pts...You lose someone out of the unit and then roll a d6. on a 4+ you get an extra power dice to use for casting that spell. 1-3 nothing happens but you can choose to keep sacrificing or stop where you're at. The lore of Dark magic looks like it's going to be pretty potent but handicapped by it's short range. +1 to cast for Dark Magic similar to the HE's Lileath blessing. No over the top Magic items from what i can see like BotWD.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looks to be a very solid balanced 8th edition book. I look forward to being able to kill a DE dreadlord now!

**Vulcan**

Good luck with that, Nathan. Without the Pendant, there's no point in taking a Dreadlord anymore, ever.

Now the Dreadlords will just sit at home and send armies out, and the Sorceresses will do the heavy lifting... which isn't terribly different from the way it was before the new book, now that I think of it.

**TanKoL**

Ld 10, kill tough stuff in CC
Just because the (unnecessary) crutch has been removed doesn't mean they suck
It just means you'll have to play the Dreadlord with a tad of brains instead of going "I don't care, I'm invincible"

**The Shadow**

New rules for y'all. Not sure where exactly it's from, but it seems accurate:

Lou_Cypher wrote:
Rules seem to be fun at least. Obtained from:

http://darogscompany.blogspot.ca/2013/09/dark-elves-second-weave-leaked.html

New character, Black Arc Fleetmaster

Kouran has stats of 596432739 and if he joins a unit of Black Guard they become unbreakable. He has a magic weapon called Crimson Death which grants +2 strength, and has a 5+ armour save from the Armour of Grief, which also creates a strength 5 hit against his attacker if he is hit.

Tullaris has stats of 566432739 and when he joins a unit of Executioners, they become frenzied. He has a magic great weapon which is called the First Draich. It gives him Heroic Killing Blow special rule.Hydra regeneration is as follows. If a Hydra is still alive at the end of your phase, roll a number of dice equal to the wounds lost. The Hydra regains a wound on each roll of a 4+.

The new Sisters of Slaughter are not brides of Khaine. They are arena fighters.

Cauldron of Blood gives a 6+ ward save to a unit it joins (5+ if Khainite). In addition, if a unit is within 6'' of the Cauldron of Blood, they can reroll all the failed rolls to wound.Cauldron of Blood also has a bound spell which can make them frenzy (if they are already frenzied, the get +2 attacks instead of +1).

No new special characters.

Malekith is 510 points on foot. Stays much of his rules, but now the circlet grants him a bonus dice if he failed his casting/dispelling attempts once per magic phase.

Black Guard are 15 points each.

Executioners are 12 points each and have killing blow

Cold One Knights are 30 points each

Bloodwrack Shrine has a special rule called called aura of agony that makes units from the Dark Elf book within 6'' +1LD, and all others -1LD, .

Witch Elves keep poison

Power of darkness is one of the two signature spells, and is cast on an 8+. Targets the caster's unit. All models in unit get +1S until the caster's next magic phase, and you recover D3 casting dice. If you rolled 3 dice, the caster suffers a wound that cannot be saved by armour.

Dark Elf have access to all eight lores now!!!!!!!!!!!

Repeater Bolt Thrower is now a special and costs 70 points. You may take up to four in a standard army.

Repeater handbows are now range 12''

Normal Repeater Crossbows remain the same.

Bleakswords are just Dark Elf swordsmen at 9 points each

Dreadspears are also 9 points each

Repeater Crossbowmen (Elves) are 12 points each and may take shields for an additional 1 point per model.

Dark riders are 16 points each and may upgrade to shields for 1 point per model. They can have both light armour and shield without losing fast cavalry (they come with light armour). Repeater Crossbows are 3 points per model

The new chariot with harpoon launcher costs 150 points. It has a profile of S4 T4 W4 with a 5+AS, M9, and two crew with spear and repeater crossbow. It has a harpoon launcher, which is like a bolt thrower but more powerful. It has S7, 24'' range, and cause D3 wounds, however if a monster suffers any wounds from it, the monster will be dragged D6'' directly towards the chariot. If the D6 roll is greater than 3, the monster will suffer an additional wound with no armour save allowed.

Warlocks are fast cavalry in the rare slot with stats of 544431528. They are 25 points each and ride Dark Steeds. They are only equipped with hand weapons, but have a 4+ ward save except for wounds caused by models with the mark of Slaanesh or are daemons of Slaanesh. They are considered to be a level 2 wizard which is used like Pink Horrors. They get +1 to cast for each extra rank except for the first, to a maximum of +3. They know two spells. One is doombolt from the Dark Elves deck, and the other is Soulblight from the lore of Death!

Shades are 16 points each with hand weapon and repeater crossbow. No armour but you can take great weapons or two hand weapons for 2 points per model.

Assassins are 90 points with poisoned attacks. They can get an additional hand weapon or a handbow. They have access to up to 50 points of magic items and also have the option to upgrade to one of three special poisons. One gives +1 to wound, one gives killing blow, and the other causes LD-1 for the rest of the game on a successful to wound roll.

No more pendent.

Sacrificial Dagger is still in for 25 points. After you cast a spell, but before a dispelling attempt is made, you can use the dagger. Remove a man from the unit, and roll a D6. On a 4+ you get an extra dice which must be rolled and added to the casting result before your opponent tries to dispel. If you roll 1-3 then you may try the dagger again and again until you get a dice.

Witchelves are initiative 6

Dark Elf sorcerer's casting dark magic gain a +1 bonus to cast. It is called HEKARTIS BLESSINGThe Sisters of Slaughter are rare options with a stat line of 564331629. They are 15 points each with shield and hand weapons. They can have a magic banner worth up to 50 points. They get a 4+ward save in close combat, and every close combat phase they can choose an enemy unit in base contact. That unit loses parry and and their rank bonus in the following combat result (but they can still be steadfast). If any enemy model in base contact with them have a higher weapon skill or strength value (before weapon bonuses), they get an additional +1 to hit and +1 to wound.

All 8 Magic Lores? F*** YEAH!!

I think that's looking pretty good overall. We did lose a few things (Pendant, Hydra/Dagger nerf), but that was to be expected. Pretty damn good considering I say. Can't wait for Saturday.

**Experiment 626**

I picked up the LGS's last box of the old Warriors to build as Xbows, since I at least like that they can be posed to look like they're actually firing their weapons instead of the 'classic' GW "I love my gun" mono-pose of the newbies...
I'm thinking a small'ish Cult of Slaanesh army and a small'ish Malus themed force will be nifty to go alongside my Daemons looking ahead to 9th edition and the likely inclusion of allies.

I also find it highly amusing the amount of absolute rage coming from HE players at the moment too! Considering I've had to put up with nothing but snide remarks about 'lolz!lrn2play!' in regards to the BotWD + Alarielle, I find it highly hypocritical that now those same players are bemoaning that DE's are nothing but an outright hard-counter to their army and that High Elves are now a bottom tier/unplayable army...

Time for some Druchii-fueled packback!

**Vulcan**

TanKoL wrote:
Ld 10, kill tough stuff in CC
Just because the (unnecessary) crutch has been removed doesn't mean they suck
It just means you'll have to play the Dreadlord with a tad of brains instead of going "I don't care, I'm invincible"

Dreadlords can do very little that a Master can't do cheaper. 10 Ld can be obtained with the Standard of Discipline. Executioners are built to kill tough stuff in close combat - even more so now with their new capabilities.

Without the Executioner's Axe or the Pendant, there IS NO ROLE for the Dreadlord anymore. There's nothing they can do that another character - or even unit! - can't do better.

I take that back. Dragonlord is still useful, as it pairs a close-combat monster and a close-combat character instead of a caster you don't want anywhere NEAR combat. But with the continuing proliferation of cannon, is the Dragonlord really all that useful?

**buckero0**

Vulcan wrote:
TanKoL wrote:
Ld 10, kill tough stuff in CC
Just because the (unnecessary) crutch has been removed doesn't mean they suck
It just means you'll have to play the Dreadlord with a tad of brains instead of going "I don't care, I'm invincible"

Dreadlords can do very little that a Master can't do cheaper. 10 Ld can be obtained with the Standard of Discipline. Executioners are built to kill tough stuff in close combat - even more so now with their new capabilities.

Without the Executioner's Axe or the Pendant, there IS NO ROLE for the Dreadlord anymore. There's nothing they can do that another character - or even unit! - can't do better.

I take that back. Dragonlord is still useful, as it pairs a close-combat monster and a close-combat character instead of a caster you don't want anywhere NEAR combat. But with the continuing proliferation of cannon, is the Dragonlord really all that useful?

The same could be said for the HE lord and most lord level characters not spell caster in this edition.

Does anyone have info on the witch elves? Are they core/special? Point cost?

**Experiment 626**

buckero0 wrote:
Vulcan wrote:
TanKoL wrote:
Ld 10, kill tough stuff in CC
Just because the (unnecessary) crutch has been removed doesn't mean they suck
It just means you'll have to play the Dreadlord with a tad of brains instead of going "I don't care, I'm invincible"

Dreadlords can do very little that a Master can't do cheaper. 10 Ld can be obtained with the Standard of Discipline. Executioners are built to kill tough stuff in close combat - even more so now with their new capabilities.

Without the Executioner's Axe or the Pendant, there IS NO ROLE for the Dreadlord anymore. There's nothing they can do that another character - or even unit! - can't do better.

I take that back. Dragonlord is still useful, as it pairs a close-combat monster and a close-combat character instead of a caster you don't want anywhere NEAR combat. But with the continuing proliferation of cannon, is the Dragonlord really all that useful?

The same could be said for the HE lord and most lord level characters not spell caster in this edition.

Does anyone have info on the witch elves? Are they core/special? Point cost?

Witch Elves are Core. Cost 5.5 skaven slaves per model. Come with ASF, Murderous Prowess, Frenzy, 2 weapons & poisoned attacks. Cauldron of Blood gives them a 5++ & re-roll ALL to-wound rolls, plus has a 'super frenzy' bound spell to boost them further. (ie: makes their Frenzy +2A instead of just +1A)
They also lost the 'Khainite' rule, meaning that any and all characters can join the unit now, not just Hags & Assassmo's

Overall, they're probably vying for 'best Core in the game'

EDIT: forgot to add, they can get a 50pts magic banner as well, but the Flaming Banner is likely the main one to consider, since 'Flaming poisoned attacks' let's them seriously Troll every regen unit in the game that isn't also packing a 3+ save or better...

**Vulcan**

The #1 thing I want to see in the new book is INTERNAL BALANCE.

I don't want to have a book where you MUST take unit X to win, while units A, B, and C all sit unused. I want ALL the units to be equally viable... or at least as close to equal as the units in the last book were.

**Experiment 626**

Vulcan wrote:
The #1 thing I want to see in the new book is INTERNAL BALANCE.

I don't want to have a book where you MUST take unit X to win, while units A, B, and C all sit unused. I want ALL the units to be equally viable... or at least as close to equal as the units in the last book were.

Well, overall the internal balance looks to be on par with High Elves. (so really good overall!)

But there's still a few turds... the new bolter chariot for starters is overcosted crap. Sure it's S7, but you can't march (chariot) and unlike the HE one, you're limited to ground-based movement making it a lot harder to line up a good shot. Plus to make it reliably accurate requires you to slap a character on there, meaning you're looking at a 300pts T4 chariot! (so, it's going to be as popular as those almost useless Slaanesh chariots/hellflayer...)

The new K-beastie is also somewhat lackluster... IIRC, it's T5/W5, no ASF or hatred and it's special ability only kicks in if you somehow manage to hit with all of its attacks. So outside of hitting it with Speed of Light + Birona's Timewarp, you're almost never going to see the extra +D6/S7 hits. (so, its ability is about as fearsome as the never used Ghorgon's regain wounds ability...

)

I think the jury's still out on the new Bloodwrack Shrine thingy... it's Aura of Despair is awesome, but it's apparently somewhat fragile and it's unknown if it can be carried/pushed into battle by a unit like the CoB. Plus it's probably a Rare unit and thus competing for pts alongside the obnoxiously powerful Warlocks & still 'good' Sisters of Slaughter, and the on-foot Medusa who has a KB ranged attack for only 45 skaven slaves.

The concensus thus far is also that the new Corsair Lord is probably about as lackluster as the HE Seahelm, while the new Beastmaster Lord comes standard with a manticore mount which simply makes him expensive when you're already almost auto-taking a Lv4. (plus for flying annoyance, there's the option to take a Dreadlord w/darkstar cloak on a peggie who's cheaper and T4 instead of T3 & capable of losing his mount)

Dreadspears are also in a bad place atm, but then spearmen in general suck which isn't really a fault of the new army book, but rather the core rules needing to give spears in general some kind of a boost to make them more than just expensive fodder/wizard bunker.

**The Shadow**

Where are you getting all these Magic Items from, 626? You've mentioned loads from the last book, most of which I'm fairly sure aren't in the new book (hasn't HawaiiMatt posted a list of them somewhere?) and you're mixing them up now too: the Darkstar cloak was/is an Arcane Item and can't be taken on a Dreadlord.

I am confuzzled

Are you confuzzled too...?

**Experiment 626**

The Shadow wrote:
Where are you getting all these Magic Items from, 626? You've mentioned loads from the last book, most of which I'm fairly sure aren't in the new book (hasn't HawaiiMatt posted a list of them somewhere?) and you're mixing them up now too: the Darkstar cloak was/is an Arcane Item and can't be taken on a Dreadlord.

I am confuzzled Are you confuzzled too...?

I've been lurking about Warseer/Ulthuan (which is in a veritable uproar right now!)/Druchii.net for all the rumors... apparently Warseer has at least one poster who has the new book...
I've seen others mentioning the cloaklord on peggie. If it's an arcane item, then obviously lots of people are getting things mixed up!

Looks like there's lots of confusion right now!

But at least one thing is for sure - Dark Elves haven't gotten anything nearly as stupid as the BotWD!

**Lou_Cypher**

Hmmm, intending on placing a Dreadlord on top of a new Carnosaur right now. Because who doesn't want to see a guy on a T-Rex leading guys on Raptors?

But what could the Carnosaur even count as that the Dreadlord could even legally ride?

**The Shadow**

Fair enough 626, I think I'll head over there myself!

And Lou, the best count as for a Carnosaur is probably a Manticore.

**rohansoldier**

I am really looking forward to the DE book as they have always been a favourite of mine since reading the Darkblade books.

Hell, I may well pick up a copy on saturday just to read until I get round to picking up an army of them some day.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an idea, I would like to see the Writ of Iron make it into the book from the Darkblade novels.

Probably something like this:

Writ of Iron 35pts (maybe a little cheap?)

The Writ of Iron grants the Lord of the army the authority of his Drachau or maybe even the Witch King himself.

One Special unit (e.g. Black Guard) may be made Core instead.

This would be a Dreadlord only upgrade.

**captain collius**

Experiment 626 wrote:
The Shadow wrote:
Where are you getting all these Magic Items from, 626? You've mentioned loads from the last book, most of which I'm fairly sure aren't in the new book (hasn't HawaiiMatt posted a list of them somewhere?) and you're mixing them up now too: the Darkstar cloak was/is an Arcane Item and can't be taken on a Dreadlord.

I am confuzzled Are you confuzzled too...?

I've been lurking about Warseer/Ulthuan (which is in a veritable uproar right now!)/Druchii.net for all the rumors... apparently Warseer has at least one poster who has the new book...
I've seen others mentioning the cloaklord on peggie. If it's an arcane item, then obviously lots of people are getting things mixed up!

Looks like there's lots of confusion right now!

But at least one thing is for sure - Dark Elves haven't gotten anything nearly as stupid as the BotWD!

So a cloak that can give That Dread lord a 3++ invulnerable and gives him killing blow and Multiple wounds D3 ohhh and its an enchanted item is not ridiculously stupid true it offers no combat protection but you can take heavy armor, Enchanted shield and add in talisman of ppreservation and he is nigh unkillable or mix with ogre blade and you can kill just about anything out on its own. The only thing tha character can't take on is elite troops ranked up.

**Experiment 626**

captain collius wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
The Shadow wrote:
Where are you getting all these Magic Items from, 626? You've mentioned loads from the last book, most of which I'm fairly sure aren't in the new book (hasn't HawaiiMatt posted a list of them somewhere?) and you're mixing them up now too: the Darkstar cloak was/is an Arcane Item and can't be taken on a Dreadlord.

I am confuzzled Are you confuzzled too...?

I've been lurking about Warseer/Ulthuan (which is in a veritable uproar right now!)/Druchii.net for all the rumors... apparently Warseer has at least one poster who has the new book...
I've seen others mentioning the cloaklord on peggie. If it's an arcane item, then obviously lots of people are getting things mixed up!

Looks like there's lots of confusion right now!

But at least one thing is for sure - Dark Elves haven't gotten anything nearly as stupid as the BotWD!

So a cloak that can give That Dread lord a 3++ invulnerable and gives him killing blow and Multiple wounds D3 ohhh and its an enchanted item so mix with ogre ogre blade and you can kill just about anything.

That's the one! IIRC it's still called the Darkstar Cloak or similar... The 3++ is only vs. ranged damage though, so he's not nearly the same levels of blaitent stupidity that the Pendant/Crown Lord of old is.

The main idea circulating for him seems to be to go full knight kit, (h.armour + shield + sea dragon cloak + lance), on a dark peggie, then give him the 3++/KB/multi-wounds cloak + dawnstone.
1+ re-rolled armour save & the 3++ vs. shooting/magic missiles/direct damage spells. Use him to go after smaller elite units like 5-strong Dragon Princes and/or smaller monstrous units & medium-weight monsters that are only 4-5 wounds that lack decent saves.