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On paper they seem to get almost all the advantages for almost half the cost (25 for one).
Same toughness, armour save, for only 10 points more they can make one a Nob and give him a power claw (+25) (that's 35 points for a Nob biker instead of 45).
They can't take Big choppas or a (very expensive) Painboy.
If you count in the Big choppa as default you get half-price nob-bikers with the same attacks and stat-line only at 4 Str instead of 6 and no cybork bodies or FNP.
They can still glance most vehicles to death, and you can still take some Nob bikers or the warboss for the others.

They do take up some Fast attack slots, so less Dakkajets unless you take Wazdakka (which I wouldn't rather two more Warbosses for more Nobz as troops). For the price of one Dakkajet you get basically 5 bikers (5 twinlinked Dakkaguns vs 3 twinlinked supashootas BUT you can still charge and HOW).

What do you guys think? Is the extra survivability and STR worth the cost? Or are the normal bikers a bit undervalued and underplayed atm? Anyone who uses them?

Edit: I forgot the extra wound... Hmmm...

I like them in choppy lists. They can keep up with a trukk.

 Rismonite wrote:
I like them in choppy lists. They can keep up with a trukk.

But how do they stack up in survivability? Vs an equal amount of trukk boyz (which aren't very survivable either these days)?

Unfortunately, with the increasing amount of Ignore-cover weapons in the game, regular bikers tend to die *very* quickly, and still cost a lot.

Against Tau or Heldrakes, Nob Bikers will still get their awesome (albeit expensive) 5++ invulnerable and 5+ Feel No Pain, but regular Bikers will probable get no save.

Pretty much what Nym said. Without their cover they're rubbish. Which sucks because ignores cover is everywhere now and I love my biker boyz =(

I've been experimenting with different sized units. Seems so far that both small and large units suck, just in different ways...

 Dakkamite wrote:
Pretty much what Nym said. Without their cover they're rubbish. Which sucks because ignores cover is everywhere now and I love my biker boyz =(

I've been experimenting with different sized units. Seems so far that both small and large units suck, just in different ways...

That's what I thought, this "ignores cover" is really starting to ruin so many things, and there's no real way to fix it :( When it were just flamers that had it, it was awesome, as you still needed to get close enough to use it, but now several weapons have it usually with enough strength or ap to ruin lighter units, and it just sucks. You're forced to take high tougness units or units with saves up the wazoo.

I could see them being good escorts for a Warboss. Afterwards, they could speed around assaulting cheap 'objective holding' units in the backfield.

You need wazzdakka to hold objectives with warbikers.

Otherwise, I agree with the others on this. The overabundance of ignore cover is killing an already overcosted unit.

Compare warbikers to white scars, and cry.
I predict warbikers getting a serious price drop next codex.

I imagine theyre getting a price drop too. 25pts for a BOY on a bike....ugh so not worth it. Yeah 4+ armor instead of a t-shirt but wth doesnt ignore that anyway? it used to be all guns except maybe 1-2 that ignored cover didnt pen the armor anyway, now days theres plenty that do both at least for AP4 stuff. Hell Tau do it with AP2 lol.

They maybe considerably cheaper than nob bikers but at least nobs have 2 wounds and invul/fnp. If the Nobz didnt have one of those 3 benefits we would never use them. As it is theyre kinda pricy, theyre slowly getting more and more of a liability since theyre being forced to make invul saves more these days. Actually wouldnt doubt it if they got a slight price reduction too....probably on the Bike upgrade rather than the Nob or its toys.

Boyz are both worse and actually costlier than White scars or Eldar bikers. Because feth you.

Ork bikers need either some major buffing or a serious price decrease, and shaving off some points won't be too bad for Nob bikers either as they can get into some really silly points per model counts.

Lord Byte wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Pretty much what Nym said. Without their cover they're rubbish. Which sucks because ignores cover is everywhere now and I love my biker boyz =(

I've been experimenting with different sized units. Seems so far that both small and large units suck, just in different ways...

That's what I thought, this "ignores cover" is really starting to ruin so many things, and there's no real way to fix it :( When it were just flamers that had it, it was awesome, as you still needed to get close enough to use it, but now several weapons have it usually with enough strength or ap to ruin lighter units, and it just sucks. You're forced to take high tougness units or units with saves up the wazoo.

Yeah, its truly dreadful. The game is becoming, even more, a thousand dollar version of quartz-parchment-shears

It seems to me the trend is to make more things have invulnerable saves rather than cover saves. I'm hoping KFF gets turned into a 5+ invul next codex. It is hitting Orks hard that they've relied on cover saves so much.

add mad doc to your list and your bikes can have 5+invuls... and if you're going with wazdakka, then you can give him an invul also and make the bikers troops.

I'd honestly say that they are good... but hurt since they got a slight nerf when the current ork codex came out. They used to have the rule "psycho blastas" which meant they got to shoot, then at effectively Init 10 they got to shoot again on their way into combat instead of fighting normally... making them do a lot more damage.

That said... they did improve their armor to 4+ instead of 6+ if i remember right...

Anyways. a unit of 3 with a nob with a klaw is expensive but has to be dealt with by your opponent. ... 110pts of shoot more or I kill something worth more than my self is never bad....

Even with ignore cover being abundant, My Bikernobz make a good but costly spearhead. They still have a way to handle CC, Have decent guns for the cost, and even can just intimidate opponents into focusing on them.

Jus' bikerboys means bikerboys are gonna die quickly and don't do well with CC, have some big challenge issues like boys W/Nob +PK, and altogether die to most shooting out there.

Warbikkers are shooters, despite what most ork players think. Just drive around and heavy bolter things lol

If you know for a fact you'll not be facing Tau or Eldar they are ok. Not great, but ok.

I only run them in Wazdakka themed fun lists these days. My orks are getting to have issues enough without handing my opponent an edge.

If you can somehow get them close enough to shoot and assault without getting murderized first they are ok. Lots of shots, HOW and then assault.

 frgsinwntr wrote:
add mad doc to your list and your bikes can have 5+invuls... and if you're going with wazdakka, then you can give him an invul also and make the bikers troops.

But neither Grotsnik nor Wazdakka are too hot IMHO, nice force multipliers, but little else. You'd be wasting your two precious HQ slots on two costly characters just to buff a single unit.

I had a lot of success with them in 5th, back when everyone thought they were worthless and took deffkoptas instead. Overcosted, yay. But deadly and quite survivable. Paired with a Bikerboss for the ld boost, my warbikers zoomed around dishing out massive ammounts of dakka, and letting the Boss do his thing when it came to melee. Ironically, now that bikes are the next big thing I've started to think that their price is a bit too steep for what ammounts to a slightly improved jink, so I've been taking Deffkoptas again. For a mere 10pts more I'm getting increased range, two wounds and a jink save. Still pricey compared to what other armies can field, but overall better than our plain bikers.

Grotsnik is actually a boss when you look at his stats. His issue is he is maybe 10-15pts overcosted imo and he drives his unit insane. Even if he just lost the oldschool rage bit i would be using him a lot more.

Problem with using him and wazdakka: where does he go? Wazdakka is worthless unless you max out on troop bikes, you arent going to have the points left to make a MANz unit for Grotsnik to hide in. Also, Wazdakka has no invul and grotsnik is forbidden from giving it to named ICs (he can give it to a warboss for 5pt discount though!). Also i dont feel very good about spending 30pts a model when i dont like 25pts a model for warbikers anyway lol

I've been goofing around with my old biker conversions the past couple of games and they have been pretty bad for their cost. The dakkaguns can do some damage, and a nob with klaw seems like it would be good (haven't made one yet), but bikes are very pricey and don't take advantage of mob rule until you get into very expensive units. I am thinking I'll try the nob with bosspole at some point, as due to low LD mine have run off the table every game I've played as soon as they take any significant fire. It's really too bad as it's potentially a very fun unit. They are resilient enough, just cowardly once they get hit. I like to think rather than running off to hide mine ride off to the ork pub.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Grotsnik is actually a boss when you look at his stats. His issue is he is maybe 10-15pts overcosted imo and he drives his unit insane. Even if he just lost the oldschool rage bit i would be using him a lot more.

Problem with using him and wazdakka: where does he go? Wazdakka is worthless unless you max out on troop bikes, you arent going to have the points left to make a MANz unit for Grotsnik to hide in. Also, Wazdakka has no invul and grotsnik is forbidden from giving it to named ICs (he can give it to a warboss for 5pt discount though!). Also i dont feel very good about spending 30pts a model when i dont like 25pts a model for warbikers anyway lol

I'm still rather new but the Mad Dok was my 2nd HQ (Only got him because it's the only other one my flgs had) and I wasn't expecting much because of how much bad talk he gets on the net but that guy is a beast. My common game is with a 10 year Warhammer40k player and it's taken me many games to figure out how to list/field/play the Mad Dok, but time and time again he's played out unexpectedly well.

Mad Dok in a block of Cybork boyz seems to save 50% of wounds.. that probably isn't the math but it seems like if my friend was doing anything other than LR's with Heavy Flamers that this unit wouldn't die. Of course this unit was too expensive and my friend often threw one drop pod distraction at it to keep the Mad Dok useless.

Mad Dok with some tankbustas in a wagon. After I experimented with running him with grots I started doing this because my friend won't back off his LR's. So I figured I better just field some melta bombs. This unit did well, and the wagons often helpled his mobility, making him a thing. Tankbustas aren't really good unless I -just have to- destroy a slew of AV14.

Mad Dok with Snikrot.. I'm a little anxious about footslogging him but I have a Snikrot and I'm going to do this.

Mad Dok with some vanilla boyz in a wagon/trukk. A second pk for a group of boyz.. FnP is this awesome save for a unit boyz that are gonna be shot at with small arms anyways and it really helps nurse the PK Nob through challenges. The battlewagon helps get the unit somewhere they want to be fasta and keeps them from being run around too much.

I just rerealized this is about nob bikers and I need to shut it.. btw Nob Bikers are awesome.

Btw my Bikerboss let me down at his first major oppurtunity. barely lives through the first swing in a challenge with Grimaldus and then rolls 5 Dice to hit and they all come up 1's and 2's. /shakefist (He had the VP warlord trait to.)

Any Ork player worth his choppa wants to hear more about the doc!

Anyway, a bit of maths;

Boys Blob + Cybork + Grotsnik [460pts]
Boys Blob + Painboss [240pts]
Boys Blob + Painboss + KFF Mek [Mek cost divided by 3, assumed to cover three blobs, 268pts]
Boys Blob + KFF Mek [As Above, 208pts]
Boys Blob [180pts]

100 Bolter shots against any/all of these units
~Grotsnik Boyz; 66 hits, 33 wounds, 22 failed saves, 15 failed FNP = 50% of boys killed = "killed value" of 230 points
~Painboy Blob: 66 hits, 33 wounds, 33 failed saves, 22 failed FNP = 73% of boys killed = "killed value" of 176 points
~Painboy + KFF: 66h, 33w, 22 failed saves, 15 failed FNP = 50% of boys killed = "killed value" of 134
~KFF Blob: 66h, 33w, 22 failed = 73% dead dudes = killed value of 151
~Naked blob: 66h 33w 33 failed = 110% dead dudes = killed value of 198

In terms of pure durability, ignoring fearless and close combat etc, best value is a Painboss and a shared Big Mek. If you cannot share the Mek I imagine it becomes much less effective. Overall Grotsnik is less tanky than the same points of naked boys - though his fearless at <10 models might help balance this a little I really doubt it.

I hope we get the generic painboy in the next codex.

I just field him as an Ork HQ, but only in friendly matches and campaigns sadly. By god he makes more sense and is needed far more in a standard Ork army than a Dread Mob!

 Rismonite wrote:
Mad Dok in a block of Cybork boyz seems to save 50% of wounds.. that probably isn't the math but it seems like if my friend was doing anything other than LR's with Heavy Flamers that this unit wouldn't die.

That's closer to the math than you'd think

Chance to make a cybork save: 33.33%
Chance to fail a cybrok save and then make a successful FNP roll: 66.66% * 33.33% = 22.22%
Chance to make one or the other: 33.33% + 22.22% = 55.55%

Bout the same survivability as bikernobz, just single wounded models and T4...which honestly the T4 makes little difference its T6 where it starts making a To Wound difference worth noting.

Tempted to try it myself. That unit of boyz is going to get all the flak and most of it you can avoid while the rest of the tide moves in unscathed lol

 Jidmah wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Mad Dok in a block of Cybork boyz seems to save 50% of wounds.. that probably isn't the math but it seems like if my friend was doing anything other than LR's with Heavy Flamers that this unit wouldn't die.

That's closer to the math than you'd think

Chance to make a cybork save: 33.33%
Chance to fail a cybrok save and then make a successful FNP roll: 66.66% * 33.33% = 22.22%
Chance to make one or the other: 33.33% + 22.22% = 55.55%

Good mathhammer.

Easier calculation:
Chance of both failing cybork and failing FNP = 2/3 x 2/3= 4/9
Chance of surviving = 1-4/9 = 5/9 = 55%

I run two full squads of warbikers to great effect,

cheap enough to take in #'s, so they better be taking a LOT of no cover type stuff, and generally, they do what they are supposed to do

IE: absorb fire like a mofo while the other 100boys get intoo CC via trukks/BW's/ect

if they dont get shot to bits, they are in CC 2nd turn, win win,

still experimenting with tehm vs nobs, but I am finding that pt for pt, I would rather have 24 warbikers then 10-12 nob bikers, even with the individual nobs being more survivable, the wheight of #'s with attacks is better from the warbikers, and against stuff that doesnt ignore cover, the 4+ is the same,

OBS some situations nobs are better, but for TAC lists, so far, I am finding warbikers to be pretty good, and always being worth the cost.

Yeah, Orks could e top tier AND fun with some sort of Cryptic/Wolf Guard like setup with PB's and Weirdboyz, maybe Shooty Meks as well?

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Mad Dok in a block of Cybork boyz seems to save 50% of wounds.. that probably isn't the math but it seems like if my friend was doing anything other than LR's with Heavy Flamers that this unit wouldn't die.

That's closer to the math than you'd think

Chance to make a cybork save: 33.33%
Chance to fail a cybrok save and then make a successful FNP roll: 66.66% * 33.33% = 22.22%
Chance to make one or the other: 33.33% + 22.22% = 55.55%

Good mathhammer.

Easier calculation:
Chance of both failing cybork and failing FNP = 2/3 x 2/3= 4/9
Chance of surviving = 1-4/9 = 5/9 = 55%

Assuming you don't have spreadsheet which can mathhammer this in two seconds anyways. I'm not redoing these calculations each time this comes up

Besides, you necro'd a threat from a month ago for this?