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After posting up a list about a week ago looking at Space Marines with Iron Hands allies. I believe I have refined it further.

HQ
Chief Librarian Tigurius - 165

Troops
5 Tactical Marines with Plasma Gun in Rhino - 120
5 Tactical Marines with Plasma Gun in Rhino - 120

Fast Attack
Stormtalon Gunship with Skyhammer Missile Launcher - 125
Stormtalon Gunship with Skyhammer Missile Launcher - 125

Heavy Support
3 Centurions with Grav-cannons and Grav-amps - 250
Stalker - 75
Vindicator with Siege Shield - 135

DA HQ
Mastery Level 2 Librarian with Power Field Generator - 130

DA Troops
5 Tactical Marines with Plasma Gun in Rhino - 120

DA Heavy Support
Vindicator with Siege Shield - 135

This totals up at 1500 points exactly.

The Dark Angel allies are there to give a 4+ invulnerable save to the centurions via the Librarian with . I upgraded the librarian to mastery level 2 to hopefully get some good divination powers such as prescience and perfect timing. I could also join Tigurius into the unit with 3 rolls on Divination making them a proper handful although I am unsure to put an extra 165 points into the unit.

Space Marines safely advance in the rhinos due to the threats elsewhere with the centurions, vindicators and stalker.

I think is a really strong space marine army. Does anyone have any ideas on how to make it even better?

I'd be worried about being able to kill vehicles unless you're a boss at rolling 6's. Other than that, looks solid. <3 Tigurius

Well I have 2 stormtalons coming in turn 2 (3+ rerollable makes them super reliable), a stalker is reasonable against ground targets with 4 TL shots so should chip a couple hull points off.

2 Vindicators have an effective 36" range with a S10 AP2 Ordance weapon. I then also have 3 centurions who have 15 shots, re-rolling hits and wounds, should kill anything they even look at.

How would you improve it in that regard? What would you put in to help kill vehicles?

You really have no weapons to punch through armor the grav weapons are nice at killing hoards of termies but not tanks. Maybe consider giving one tac squad a LC and dropping a rhino and make the other rhino a LC razorback with the extra pts. If you're only carting around 5 man squads the extra tank busting is nice.

How are the centurions not good at taking out tanks?

15 shots, re-rolling hits so that is 13 hits. Then I need 6's, rerolling, so should get about 4 sixes. With 5 divination powers I will almost definitely get ignores cover. 4 sixes will equate to 7 hull points worth of damage.

A single las cannon on a tac squad just defeats the point, they will be mobile units - and a lascannon takes the mobility away.

Then 2 S10 Ap2 blasts will do well with penetrating armour. Remember it is a large blast, so it has a 5" diameter, and usually on tanks I will place the blast in the middle, meaning I can have an 8 on the scatter dice and still hit the vehicle, giving me an 80% chance of hitting, and I then get 2D6 armour penetration pick the highest... I think my anti tank is fine.

I then also have the storm talons coming in turn 2 with 8 S6 AP4 Twinlinked Rending Shots and 6 S7 AP4 Shots too. These will be hitting on 2s if I am hitting ground targets or 3s if I am hitting flyers or skimmers.

With your suggestion I will spend 40 extra points changing the rhino to a razorback, and lose 30 points from the other. It just wouldn't work. I will then also have a 5 man tactical squad in the open just asking for first blood..

Yeah I don't think AT is a real issue with this list. AA is a little tight though with prescience the Cents can put some hurt out on a flyer.

My concern is this is a 24" range army with no CC ability. So I would give that a little think. With the PFG and the lvl2 prescience from the DA Libby do you need Tigirius? Perhaps a combat character.

My advice is:

Captain: AA, Shield Eternal, Power Axe 175 (find 10 points somewhere probably a siege shield, dropping both gets him a power fist).

CM: AA, SS, Power Maul 175 (same as above for extra points)

Both give you a 3++ particularly useful in combat. The Captain gives you an EW to tank S10, the CM gives you an Orbital Bombardment that you can move and shoot with (thanks to SnP from the Cents). Giving you a greater threat on turn 1. Both also give you serious CC punch should you find yourself in combat. They can also leave the units and engage nearby combat threats to prevent your Cents from getting stuck in combat where they can't do damage.

xStuuy wrote:
How are the centurions not good at taking out tanks?

15 shots, re-rolling hits so that is 13 hits. Then I need 6's, rerolling, so should get about 4 sixes. With 5 divination powers I will almost definitely get ignores cover. 4 sixes will equate to 7 hull points worth of damage.

A single las cannon on a tac squad just defeats the point, they will be mobile units - and a lascannon takes the mobility away.

Then 2 S10 Ap2 blasts will do well with penetrating armour. Remember it is a large blast, so it has a 5" diameter, and usually on tanks I will place the blast in the middle, meaning I can have an 8 on the scatter dice and still hit the vehicle, giving me an 80% chance of hitting, and I then get 2D6 armour penetration pick the highest... I think my anti tank is fine.

I then also have the storm talons coming in turn 2 with 8 S6 AP4 Twinlinked Rending Shots and 6 S7 AP4 Shots too. These will be hitting on 2s if I am hitting ground targets or 3s if I am hitting flyers or skimmers.

With your suggestion I will spend 40 extra points changing the rhino to a razorback, and lose 30 points from the other. It just wouldn't work. I will then also have a 5 man tactical squad in the open just asking for first blood..

I guess that is just personal preference. I never have dice on my side so relying on 6 just seems impossible to me and I usually don't play very mobile with my tac squads. Besides you would still have 2 just as mobile as before only one would sit on a objective probably in your deployment zone. I wouldn't worry about lack of CC but I usually play against shooty armies anyways.

Another option is to drop a rhino for chest ML on your centurions.

Chest ML is expensive and unnecessary on the Cents. They'll kill any vehicle they shoot at anyway along with any armoured target. The Hurricane bolters help them against Hordes and match their range.

Sorry but every suggestion you've made would make his list worse.

Hmm I know what you're saying. Tarpitting the centurions is arguably one of the worst things that can happen.

I think I am going more towards the chapter master because of the orbital bombardment, it is just an extra threat an extra long range way of potentially dealing with tanks.

What is the AA that you list with both the Captain and CM? It is worth 15 points but I just cannot see what upgrades could have that acronym from the lists! Apart from that I think you are right. Having this close combat beast enables me to not worry about my centurions.

Artificier Armour its 20 points.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Chest ML is expensive and unnecessary on the Cents. They'll kill any vehicle they shoot at anyway along with any armoured target. The Hurricane bolters help them against Hordes and match their range.

Sorry but every suggestion you've made would make his list worse.

How is 10pts a model for a ML too expensive? It's 15 for a tac squad to get one. It gives you long range weapons in a list that otherwise is limited to 24". You will still have frags for hoards and won't suffer from having to roll 6 just to glance a vehicle to death.

You clearly don't want any suggestions so why did you ask?

15 points to upgrade 1 boltgun to an ML vs 10 points to upgrade 3 twin linked bolters to 1 ML. Not as good a deal as you make out. It also makes the Centurion 90 points for 2 wounds is fairly steep.

As for relying on 6s if he shoots at a vehicle he should kill it twice over what does it matter if he's "relying on 6s"? If it is dead and it should be every time he shoots at it easily what does it matter?

It is not my list so I didn't ask for suggestions. Just because some one asks for suggestions doesn't mean they should listento ones that would weaken their list.

Few things I noticed, up to you in the long run:

1: you only have 15 scoring models. Little bit sketchy for 1500, but I suppose the list I run with only has 20. I dont know what your backfield/regular playing areas look like, but perhaps having some long ranged weapons on one or two of the 5man squads to let them better hide when shooting things?

2: Vindicators only have a 30" threat range, not 36". Nothing really to do with your list, I love vindis. Maybe not the most competitive thing in a list, but them combined with the Centurions will be quite the problem to deal with when they hit 24" range.

3: With your list, your Characters are going to have a hard time finding a place to hang out. I suppose Tigurius could hang out with a 5man Combat Squad, but that Combat Squad might find itself dead rather quickly if they offer STW as well as removing 1/3 of your scoring units. With Tigurius' ability to reroll powers, is a power field really necessary, when you can get the Divination ability to give 4++? (I know it's not guaranteed, but, it's a lot of points in characters.) Maybe even (god help me) drop Tigurius if you are going to keep the DA Divination Librarian. The majority of your list is either a Large Blast Template, and doesn't benefit from Tigurius or any of the spells he can cast on the tanks, or TL/BS5 vs Ground, or a combat squad. I don't feel that you need both Tigurius and the DA Divination Librarian, but that's just me.

4: I was going to suggest an Aegis line, but with your list being mostly 24" range, it might not be so hot of an idea. Could always deploy it 6" forward from your Deployment zone, so you could get the 4+ cover save and maybe be in firing range. An Aegis line could be good, however, though I don't see where you would be easily able to drop the points for a Quad gun Line. (Which is better than a stalker, in my opinion.)

Bal4eva wrote:
I guess that is just personal preference. I never have dice on my side so relying on 6 just seems impossible to me and I usually don't play very mobile with my tac squads. Besides you would still have 2 just as mobile as before only one would sit on a objective probably in your deployment zone. I wouldn't worry about lack of CC but I usually play against shooty armies anyways.

Another option is to drop a rhino for chest ML on your centurions.

The centurions have 15 shots re-rolling so that is 13 hits with the grav-cannons, and an average of 4 sixes, 7 5+, 10 4+, and it just gets better and better. You then also have 9 twin-linked boltguns on the centurions to deal with hordes, they are just so versatile. It is probably the only unit in the game where having a mix of elite shots and horde fire works because of the grav-cannons re-rolling wounds and being AP2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crazyterran wrote:
Few things I noticed, up to you in the long run:

1: you only have 15 scoring models. Little bit sketchy for 1500, but I suppose the list I run with only has 20. I dont know what your backfield/regular playing areas look like, but perhaps having some long ranged weapons on one or two of the 5man squads to let them better hide when shooting things?

Hmm it is an idea I think will come out in playtesting, but when buying marines you get 20. I could always alter the list after I bought the models. It is definitely something which is worth some thought, but as I am not going to have this up and running in 6 months it isn't urgent!

Crazyterran wrote:

2: Vindicators only have a 30" threat range, not 36". Nothing really to do with your list, I love vindis. Maybe not the most competitive thing in a list, but them combined with the Centurions will be quite the problem to deal with when they hit 24" range.

They should only really be brought in pairs because of how one is easy to disable. What would you advice I think about if it isn't Vindicators. Predators maybe?

Crazyterran wrote:
3: With your list, your Characters are going to have a hard time finding a place to hang out. I suppose Tigurius could hang out with a 5man Combat Squad, but that Combat Squad might find itself dead rather quickly if they offer STW as well as removing 1/3 of your scoring units. With Tigurius' ability to reroll powers, is a power field really necessary, when you can get the Divination ability to give 4++? (I know it's not guaranteed, but, it's a lot of points in characters.) Maybe even (god help me) drop Tigurius if you are going to keep the DA Divination Librarian. The majority of your list is either a Large Blast Template, and doesn't benefit from Tigurius or any of the spells he can cast on the tanks, or TL/BS5 vs Ground, or a combat squad. I don't feel that you need both Tigurius and the DA Divination Librarian, but that's just me.

I thought that initially. When you think what Tigurius gives to the table is 165 points of awesomeness, however with the librarian he gives the centurions, with certainty a 4++, re-roll hits and one other power. The only thing which I would want Tigurius for in that regard is the re-roll reserves.

In that sense I think going for a combat character as mentioned above in this thread would be a good idea as it prevents my centurions from getting wrecked in combat.

They should only really be brought in pairs because of how one is easy to disable. What would you advice I think about if it isn't Vindicators. Predators maybe?

Honestly, the most competitive thing in a Marines Heavy slot is probably either Centurions or T-Fire Cannons. The T-Fire cannons would give you some fairly-reliable Anti-Horde while still being able to hide out.

However, Like I said, I am a big fan of Vindicators. They give quite a hammer in 1500pts, and, some armies/lists have a really hard time dealing with them. They absolutely slaughter 2+ save armies, so, it depends what your local meta is like.

As for Tigurius, it's all personal preference. You could also save 35pts on the DA Librarian by dropping his level 2, as you'll only be really using him for Prescience. I suppose the chance to get ignore cover is nice, (or even Misfortune on units in cover/have invuln saves).

If you do get a combat character, a Chapter Master w/ TDA, SE and a T-Hammer isn't bad. Get to drop the Orbital Bombardment as you move forward.

Downside is he costs an arm and a tank.

Have to interject here, I love my Centurions, I think they score MVP for me most games, I don't run grav guns, but I can see why people do, I do like having a missile launcher on my Serg's chest, but I play Salamander, so its twin linked via Master Artisans rule, I also have the Omniscope for splitfire, so my Serg can pop a tank, and his buddies can mop up some troopage.

if I were you (which I'm not) I'd even consider loosing the 2 Vindicators, and adding a Second Squad of the Marines...inside Marines, grav amp them up and enjoy, you'll be a little more close range, and you'll hurt on turn one, but they are tough, have high av and multiple wounds, so may do better than the vindicators long term (although as long as they aren't flanked, Vindicators should live too) I'm just hurting a bit after watching my Land Raider die from 48" away via a shot from and Eldar Voidbringer, but the same would be ture from Melta weapons, you'd loose a model, rather than a whole tank

having said that my Maths isn't great, so please excuse if you think that I'm full of something

I also have to agree that a Combat HQ would be a good idea, but would suggest going with a Cap in Artificer rather than a Termie CM while orbital bombard is nice, the price of a CM in termie is HUGE

enjoy your list

Why Terminator armour on the CM? AA works out cheaper and you're still relentless due to the Centurions. So you can still drop that bombardment on the move. No reason to take TDA.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Why Terminator armour on the CM? AA works out cheaper and you're still relentless due to the Centurions. So you can still drop that bombardment on the move. No reason to take TDA.

My mistake! I forgot that SnP applies to the unit, including any character that joins.

It is definitely something to consider. I am a university student after all so what I wanted to gain out of this exercise was that the lists I have built have been competitive in their own right, and can always be improved / tinkered with to make better.

Like you said swapping Vindicators out for some more centurions could be epic, and is definitely a long term thing!

If I dropped the second level on the DA Librarian, where would I put the 35 extra points? I suppose 15 would go on the combat character if I am dropping Tigurius - and the rest on 2 combi-plasmas for the tactical squad!

Thank you everyone for commenting!