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I've been looking at fluff I have access to (5th and 6th ed space marine codices primarily) and I noticed something interesting in the fluff regarding the tyrannic wars. The supposedly slow recruitment and training rates are actually quite fast. Even if we assume the stated casualties of a complete 1st company loss are the only losses we are still looking at replacing roughly 50 marines (all with veteran status) in less than 100 years. This suggests much more flexibility in how marines can replace total losses than I have seen suggested on the forums.

I am curious as to the opinions of my fellow Dakkites on this possibility.

The 1st company does not take recruits from the scout company. It is made up entirely of veterans of the chapter. So for the 1st company to replace its losses it simply promotes them from the other companies. The fact that it took 100 years to replace 50 veterans should demonstrate how high their standards are.

I see what you mean there, but replacing a veteran every 2 years in an army of 1,000(ish) is still pretty impressive. And it tells me than line losses are on a good timescale of 1 or 2 a year when it takes many years (never stated but I get the feel it's 20-50 years) of training a piece.

I think, in general, SM replacement rates are tied to the maturing of gene seeds in current marines. If I remember correctly it takes something like 10 years to mature to the place where they can extract a version they can use for recruits. I guess, hypothetically they could replace/add 1,000 marines every ten years or so from that. Obviously they don't normally do it that quickly, rather simply trying to match loss rates to stay around 1000.

I think that's how it works for marines generally.

But as was mentioned, for 1st company, you've got to be an awesome marine in another company and get promoted, so it works differently.

As said, first company marines usually become veteran warriors while in a standard battle company. They aren't going to promote marines to 1st Company on the day they become qualified lest they exceed 100 in number.

There has to be both a qualified marine and an empty space to fill. Therefore a chapter could, in theory, replace an entire 1st company in a single day if they happen to have 100 suitable marines on the waiting list.

It's for these reasons that I'm impressed with how it took them 100 years to get 50 in the 1st company. It shows that while each marine is very expensive they do have a good ability to replace their own numbers with a surprising amount of urgency.

The first of the two progenoid glands (the one in the neck) creates fully mature "gene seed" that can be harvested 5 years after implantation. The progenoid glands are the 18th organ implant. Given that organ implantation optimally begins in a successful aspirant at age 12-13, with implantation of the 19th and final organ (black carapace) approximately 5-6 years later, you can create another space marine at roughly 10-11 year clips.

The second progenoid gland (in the chest) matures 10 years after implantation, but that is not generally harvested until the astartes in question dies.

This essentially allows chapters to grow, when losses need to be replaced, because you can create 2 space marines from every 1 - the first after 5 years and the second to replace the death of a brother. Of course, this assumes you can harvest gene seed from every fallen brother - which is not always the case.

Keep in mind that not all aspirants will survive the implantation period - which in most cases results in the loss of the gene seed. This is part of the reason the recruiting standards are so high - to ensure that those aspirants selected for implantation are the best of the best and, therefore, have the highest chance of surviving the implantation process to one day become battle brothers or heroes of the chapter.

In any event, to replace a few losses is not a big deal. A near constant effort for chapters that are engaged in crusades. When a chapter takes heavy losses - like entire companies or more - the recovery time can be centuries. Where a chapter has failed to recover sufficient gene seeds from fallen brethren (i.e. Celestial Lions), the chapter could be doomed to eventually die out.

The Flesh Tearers are another good example of a hurting/doomed chapter. Between their constant fighting and the genetic problems that apparently made some gene seeds non-viable (Blood Angels gene seed curse and all that), they basically told Gabriel Seth right up front that the odds of them being able to recover were slim to none.

Crimson Fists also had to fight to not be absorbed, if I remember correctly. After the whole debacle with their fortress monastery, they only had something like 100 guys left, which meant, assuming all 100 had neck progenoids ready to go, they could add 100 marines to their numbers. Odds are the actual numbers would be far less thanks to some aspirants dying.

Do they replace the neck progenoids with new ones to mature after they take out the mature ones? I always just assumed they did to have marines constantly creating mature progenoid glands, but I might be wrong.

 DogofWar1 wrote:
The Flesh Tearers are another good example of a hurting/doomed chapter. Between their constant fighting and the genetic problems that apparently made some gene seeds non-viable (Blood Angels gene seed curse and all that), they basically told Gabriel Seth right up front that the odds of them being able to recover were slim to none.

Crimson Fists also had to fight to not be absorbed, if I remember correctly. After the whole debacle with their fortress monastery, they only had something like 100 guys left, which meant, assuming all 100 had neck progenoids ready to go, they could add 100 marines to their numbers. Odds are the actual numbers would be far less thanks to some aspirants dying.

Do they replace the neck progenoids with new ones to mature after they take out the mature ones? I always just assumed they did to have marines constantly creating mature progenoid glands, but I might be wrong.

No, each progenoid creates a single gene seed. They are not replenished, nor do they create new seed after being harvested. The harvesting process is thought to damage or destroy the gland. That said, as for the Crimson Fists example - it's unlikely more than a few of those 100 had harvestable neck glands - as odds are they'd have been harvested after 5 years.

One of the many reasons taking losses of that degree is something a chapter generally does not recover from quickly, or possibly ever.

I think it is quite possible that in the case of a Chapter suffering massive losses, it could be provided with extra gene-seed by its brother chapters (ie. those originating from the same Primarch) or by Ad Mech (which keeps some of the gene-seed.) This will certainly happen if the Chapter devastated is one of the first founding ones, as an extinction of such a Chapter would be a massive propaganda disaster.

Also, replacing 50 veterans in 100 years doesn't seem that impressive to me... I'm sure that in all those other companies there were plenty of experienced marines ready to be promoted.

Eh, the way they seem to run things, it doesn't seem likely that they'd promote a guy from the battle companies without both having a guy to replace him and having him earn it. So while some guys may be ready you've still gotta wait for the reserve guy to be ready and everything down the line to be okayed.

Also, one thing that seems incredibly overlooked to me, is having a sort of rolling offset for implants/gene-seed and training. What I mean by that is you have yearly generations so, as long as you put in x recruits each year for the process of becoming space marines (after you take out z losses from training and modification), you'll get a reliable turnout of battle-brothers and scouts each year.

I mean which makes more sense? The captains waiting to take losses until they go to get 5 battle brothers who won't be there for another 20 years minimum, or having things set up so average losses will be replaced as soon as they are KIA. I also believe that between recruitment and scout duty the losses aren't super appalling. From what I've read in the 5th and 6th codices they seem to test their recruits a lot and make every effort possible not to cripple out 90% of them. I'm not saying they don't take significant losses, but unless you're doing something really stupid, like shooting people as part of training, 20% losses are still really extreme for any semi-practical process while for the vast majority of processes currently are completely unacceptable.

My tabletop experience says that scouts have about 98% casualty rate...

I think there was some lore I read once about a handful (less than 50 if I remember right) of marines rebuilding their entire chapter. Pretty sure this was the Celestial Lions or a chapter in a similar situation, but given these marines managed to rebuild their entire chapter in about 100 years says something. I'm guessing the 1st company was not filled with veterans, but the fact that they managed to create at least 10 marines per year plus losses in combat is quite astonishing.

Apologies if I went OT a little


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
My tabletop experience says that scouts have about 98% casualty rate...

Touchè.

 Crimson wrote:
My tabletop experience says that scouts have about 98% casualty rate...

Don't confuse the game with the fluff. Unlike in our tabletop games, the Marines should almost never be deploying without guard or mechanicum support.,
Unlike in the fluff, in the game all units need to be reasonably kill-able without being the story's spiritual liege. ;-]

 Crimson wrote:
My tabletop experience says that scouts have about 98% casualty rate...

Yeah... and my tabletop experience says plenty of other things about the game that aren't true/reflected in the setting/fluff.

TT =/= fluff. C'mon, this is elementary.

Link for those unfamiliar with the concept.

It really depends on how many initiates the chapter has at the time of the massive losses.


Once a recruit reaches the Scout squads, he has all the implants except the Black Carapace. He's basically waiting on a opening in one of the companies.

If a massive opening appears, the Chapter will likely immediately promote all their scouts into vacant positions. This will give them an immediate influx of full marines.

Secondly, they will step up their recruitment. It takes roughly 8-10 years for the implantation process.


Lets assume the Chapter was cut down to 30%. Roughly 300 marines and a hundred or so Scouts(scout numbers are not limited by the Codex so it could be more)

With immediate promotion, the Chapter is now sitting at 400 marines.

Now, Marines normally have a fairly low casualty rate. So they'll only have a few recruits going at a time. Maybe 20 scouts get promoted or die a year. So they have their normal recruitment cycle set up to produce 20 scouts a year.

This would mean in 10 years they would have 200 new marines.

If they started with 400, it would only take about 30 years to get back to full company strength. Assuming they were careful with their numbers and also had enough geneseed to maintain normal recruitment cycles.


Most chapters will store geneseed for a rainy day such as this. So with Geneseed not being a factor they can rebuild fairly quickly, but if they lost a massive chunk of geneseed it would take much longer.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It really depends on how many initiates the chapter has at the time of the massive losses.


Once a recruit reaches the Scout squads, he has all the implants except the Black Carapace. He's basically waiting on a opening in one of the companies.

If a massive opening appears, the Chapter will likely immediately promote all their scouts into vacant positions. This will give them an immediate influx of full marines.

Secondly, they will step up their recruitment. It takes roughly 8-10 years for the implantation process.


Lets assume the Chapter was cut down to 30%. Roughly 300 marines and a hundred or so Scouts(scout numbers are not limited by the Codex so it could be more)

With immediate promotion, the Chapter is now sitting at 400 marines.

Now, Marines normally have a fairly low casualty rate. So they'll only have a few recruits going at a time. Maybe 20 scouts get promoted or die a year. So they have their normal recruitment cycle set up to produce 20 scouts a year.

This would mean in 10 years they would have 200 new marines.

If they started with 400, it would only take about 30 years to get back to full company strength. Assuming they were careful with their numbers and also had enough geneseed to maintain normal recruitment cycles.

Most chapters will store geneseed for a rainy day such as this. So with Geneseed not being a factor they can rebuild fairly quickly, but if they lost a massive chunk of geneseed it would take much longer.

This makes a lot of sense. My guess is that in these circumstances, assuming the 1st company was completely wiped out, there would be no 'veteran' company, rather one made up of the initial 300 marines, with the promoted scouts filling in the other companies, usually filling in existing companies before creating new ones.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Spoiler:

It really depends on how many initiates the chapter has at the time of the massive losses.


Once a recruit reaches the Scout squads, he has all the implants except the Black Carapace. He's basically waiting on a opening in one of the companies.

If a massive opening appears, the Chapter will likely immediately promote all their scouts into vacant positions. This will give them an immediate influx of full marines.

Secondly, they will step up their recruitment. It takes roughly 8-10 years for the implantation process.


Lets assume the Chapter was cut down to 30%. Roughly 300 marines and a hundred or so Scouts(scout numbers are not limited by the Codex so it could be more)

With immediate promotion, the Chapter is now sitting at 400 marines.

Now, Marines normally have a fairly low casualty rate. So they'll only have a few recruits going at a time. Maybe 20 scouts get promoted or die a year. So they have their normal recruitment cycle set up to produce 20 scouts a year.

This would mean in 10 years they would have 200 new marines.

If they started with 400, it would only take about 30 years to get back to full company strength. Assuming they were careful with their numbers and also had enough geneseed to maintain normal recruitment cycles.


Most chapters will store geneseed for a rainy day such as this. So with Geneseed not being a factor they can rebuild fairly quickly, but if they lost a massive chunk of geneseed it would take much longer.

Pretty much this. I could imagine that if a Chapter wanted to, they could replace 50 members of the 1st Company fairly quickly, if not instantly. Here would be a 5 year plan:

Each year promote 10 veterans already present in the other 8 companies and their leadership to the 1st company, so each company looses an average of 1.25 marines.
Promote other members of those companies into the now vacant positions, either in the command squad, new sergeants, new tactical marines.
Promote 10 devastators from the reserve squad into the new positions.
Promote 10 scouts a year to Devastators (1 per squad in the 9th company).

It they absolutely had to do it in a year, then each Devastator squad in the entire chapter could take on 2-3 Scouts and promote the 2-3 experienced devastators up the usual chain of training.

Well I would assume whatever conflict took out the First company would leave no shortage of Marines eligible to take their place. So you'd not be without a First for very long.


Say we have this conflict that wipes out the First, and the 5th-9th companies.

The captain of the 3rd is really the biggest hero of this tragic battle and becomes the new Chapter Master.

We have 4 squads left in the 2nd. 3 from the 3rd. and 7 from the 4th.

The new Chapter Master appoints the Captain of the 2nd to be the new Captain of the 1st. With him go the members of the 2nd's Command Squad and one squad each from the remaining companies. All told, 20 marines now make up the 1st.

All the surviving scouts from the chapter get promoted to full battle brothers and fill out the remaining companies.

As time goes on the most skilled Sergeants from the surviving companies get appointed to be the new Captains of the companies that were totally destroyed. Each company being founded with a single squad from another company and gradually being filled out over time.


Mostly as a point of pride, I doubt many chapters would leave the 1st company memberless for very long. At the very least they would have a dozen or so marines worthy of the honor. But it would take a long time for them to make it to full strength, what with most of the chapter being relative newbies.

Regarding the tt casualties one thing you have to realize is that in battle a casualty is just someone who can't fight in that battle anymore. In fact part of why marines are so expensive to make is they can survive being a casualty many many time before they finally stay down.

If a normal human can survive being ripped limb form limb by a mine (not that they'll fight anymore but we'll touch on that later) a marine should be able to survive much more than that before they're dead for good. In fact several of their implants are for making sure they aren't a permanent casualty.

Add to that even if they are shredded like the poor guy that took a mine medical and augmentation tech is such that they slap on a shiny new prosthetic and the marine is back in no time.

In short, even though you're losing 90% of your marines on tt, in the lore 90% of those will be able to fight in the next battle.

I am trying to recall if there has ever been mention if they can harvest Progenoid glands from failed aspirants - I was kinda assuming not but could be wrong?

As long as the glands themselves are not affected/mutated by the Aspirant, I don't see why it shouldn't work. Of course, extraction of the primary gland would probably be lethal, but when a failed aspirant cannot even serve as a serf anymore (at which point he may well keep both glands and breed them until they're ready for harvest, similar to the test-slaves of the Adeptus Mechanicus' geneseed breeding program), he's probably not enjoying his life much anyways.

Random theory: perhaps geneseed affected by aspirant rejection is a factor influencing the degree of corruption over the millennia? I don't think this idea ever comes up anywhere, but it's an interesting thought.

Indeed - Its something that this thread got me to thinking about - just can't recall it being mentioned - could be another interesting plot device somewhere

That's actually a brilliant idea, it would account for a lot of unknowns. Also, I could see the chaos gods specifically going after failed aspirants in an attempt to corrupt the space marines form within over time.

Also what's to stop the marines from just leaving the failed aspirants in a vat to keep them semi-living until the prgenoids mature and then lobotomizing them and turning them into servitors?

The treatment of failed aspirants in Chapters is hugely variable - from death through slavery to honoured serfs and even auxilaries. I think Many Chapters need them more than they would like to admit - like all support personnel.

I guess that makes a fair amount of sense.

Does the fluff ever give us reasonably hard numbers of aspirant failure rates?

I know Raven Guard, and successors, slow their recruitment rate due to after effects of Corax trying to pump up their numbers for the heresy. Whereas, Ultramarines, and successors, seem to breed like rabbits in a Viagra plant.

-Edit-
Spelling

Not to my knowledge - likely depends too much on the individual Chapters and their methods - According to the Salamander novels for instance, once you join the Scouts you either become a full Marine or die trying.....in contrast the reclaimers have a goodly number of their failed Aspirants on thier ships as Elite crew - which makes a lot ofsense - after all they are still highly skilled and more than human.

Just to clarify the above, failed aspirant is an aspirant that is not yet a neophyte (that is, an aspirant that has begun surgery to make him into a scout/space marine) so yes, they are used as an elite crew because they are highly skilled, and were not transformed into space marines for other reasons, such as organ incompatibilities and other medical reasons. These elite crewmembers may recieve some augumentation, but no where near enough to make them space marines.