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Made in us
Sinister Chaos Marine



michigan

i am a csm player and i got the daemon codex to start an ally division. after reading the codex over a few times i feel that the demons arent as versitile as other people say. everything deepstrikes which is cool but almost nothing shoots. can they assault on deep strike?

i read about the skull cannon, and it says if it makes a wound then they can assault at normal Int. in difficult terran, but does this also work for assaulting in cover?

they have no transports.

i feel that alot of the chaos artifacts and special rules only work againt pyskers and other deamons. they have some weapons ap3 but not much for tanks other then DPs.

i dont under stand why GW made the demons of "T" kinda bad. the warp flames is terrible for the user. pass a toughness test and the opponet gets fnp and its cummulitive

but not to just bitch i see a few good things. i like the hqs and i like you can take 4 hearlds as 1 hq spot. there points arent that bad for most of them.
fast attacks are pretty good too. some get a little expensive but i think most are reasonable for F.A.

now to get to my main question what would be good units and hqs to run with a csm primary.

i usually run a heldrake, oblitz, squads of 10 csm, bikers and a lord.

i feel iwould want to use the chaos fast attacks, and utilize DPs, also can chaos units go in csm transport because there blood brothers?

please help with any information you can. thanks alot dakkadakkites.

When in doubt do what seems hardest  
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




No.

Incorrect. Re-read the rules for the Skullcannon.

Correct.

So-so. *shrug*

Daemons of Tzeentch are good. Just have to use them right.

(oh joy, the standard Chaos Helldrake list)

Read the rules for Battle brothers.
   
Made in us
Sinister Chaos Marine



michigan

dont hate on the heldrake. im not in love with it like alot of people. its a flying dragon ( how cool is that!). and those are just the models i have. i cant afford to just buy whatever model i want whenever i want.

so what daemon units would fit best with that list.

When in doubt do what seems hardest  
   
Made in gb
Gavin Thorpe




There's a lot of questions there but I'll answer as best I can,

There is minimal shooting and no, you cannot assault from Deep Strike. The vast majority of your shooting is reliant on summoning Witchfire with Psychic Mastery or the use of Soulgrinders. Other than that, there are a few scattered units as well as the Warpstorm to shore it up. But you are correct, they are light on firepower and will do the majority of killing up close.

Yes the Skullcannon helps with assaulting in cover. It basically gives you everything assault grenades do, except they cannot be thrown as a weapon.

No, they have no transports. This is an army that variously walks, runs or flies. No, they don't really suffer for it either and play perfectly well without them.

They have a lot of gear that buffs or helps Daemons. Some stuff hurts psykers or enemy Invuls but the whole point is that you have the flexibility to list-tailor on the spot.
You have enormous amounts of AP2/3, that is really not a problem. There is anti-tank in the list but you have to be creative. Flying monsters are excellent at spamming S5+ into rear arcs while you can ultimately just smash them apart in combat. The Soulgrinder and Skullcannon do reasonable jobs as well.

Daemon of Tzeentch as a rule is fantastic. Daemon Princes, Lords of Change, Heralds, Horrors and Screamers are all fantastic units. Flamers are a bit situational and the Chariot is awful. Warpflame is basically an upgraded version of Soulblaze that either gives 6+ FNP or D3 AP2 wounds. It's amazing how often people forget that, it's a serious amount of damage to inflict. If you are really that concerned about it just focus fire and obliterate a unit, so there is nothing left to give FNP to.

Heralds are awesome. Love them. Heralds of Tzeentch are buff dispensers, Khorne make good missile-catchers, Slaanesh give ridiculous Locus abilities and Nurgle provides FNP and a Quad-Gun operator.
Fast Attack is similarly excellent. Seekers and Flesh Hounds are some of the best units in the game. Screamers can make a hideous deathstar, Drones are ludicrously tough Icon bearers and Furies are the cheapest Jump infantry in the game. Just don't touch the Hellflayer.

CSM Primary, look into a Telepathy Sorcerer for buffs or a Mace-Prince if you like a Flying Circus. Maybe Huron if you like the 'all up in your face' style. Unit-wise, consider Spawn + Juggerlord as a melee train, Heldrakes are always fun and provide reasonable anti-air, or you could get some anti-tank units to work as can openers. Remember that units with the 'Daemon' rule are generally eligible for some nice supporting wargear like the Grimoire or Icons, so you can get some free synergy there.

No, not even Blood Brothers can use each others transports. Also due to the way Daemons work, you cannot mix Daemonic characters with your Marine units and vice-versa.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/30 20:07:55


WarOne wrote:
At the very peak of his power, Mat Ward stood at the top echelons of the GW hierarchy, second only to Satan in terms of personal power within the company.
 
   
Made in nz
Disguised Speculo





Need more posts like the one above, and less like the first reply to this thread!

Cheers Mozza, I'm in a similar position to OP so advice like this is great
   
Made in gb
Gavin Thorpe




Happy to help.
As a very brief overview of the army, I'll give a very quick listing of what gives the most bang for your buck in my opinion. This is just to provide an idea of whether your ideas are going to be viable.
Also, in all cases please bear in mind that the book actually has really nice balance by the usual standards. What I consider to be 'average' is still perfectly usable, it just needs a little more care than you might need for the 'Unstoppable' units.
When I say 'Good', I mean that it is probably capable of standing up in an environment with Riptide spam, Wave Serpents and Grav Bikers. Anything from 'Good' and above will put you in a position to start placing in tournaments, so there's a lot of choice.


Unstoppable: Fateweaver, Herald of Tzeentch, Flesh Hounds w KHerald, Seekers
Excellent: Lord of Change, Daemon Prince (Slaanesh/Nurgle), Karanak, Herald of Slaanesh, Daemonettes, Soulgrinder
Good: Great Unclean One, Keeper of Secrets, Daemon Prince (Tzeentch), Horrors, Plaguebearers, Screamers, Skull Cannon
Average: Bloodthirster, Herald of Nurgle, Beasts, Flamers, Fiends, Plague Drones, Furies, Seeker Chariots
Weak: Kugath, Skarbrand, Skulltaker, Epidemius, Masque, Daemon Prince (Khorne), Bloodcrushers, Bloodletters, Nurglings, Hellflayer
Worthless: Blue Scribes, Changeling, Burning Chariot

WarOne wrote:
At the very peak of his power, Mat Ward stood at the top echelons of the GW hierarchy, second only to Satan in terms of personal power within the company.
 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





McKenzie, TN

Excellent post by Mozzamanx.

I would like to reinforce that the real strength of the book is that it basically allows you to tailor your list every game. It is a hard army to learn as you have to learn your own army, the basics of the other armies, the psychic disciplines and their effects, and finally good movement and DS practices. If you understand all of this and get the right rolls you will go supernova. If you roll poorly a proper daemons list should still be in the game just an up hill fight. The things you may be missing are the abilities psychic powers and gifts give you.
   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight






the GOAT 765 wrote:
everything deepstrikes


Correction: everything can deepstrike but doesn't have to.

Space Wolves: 3770
Orks: 3000
Chaos Daemons: 1750
Warriors of Chaos: 2000

My avatar 
   
Made in us
Sinister Chaos Marine



michigan

What would make kugath and skarbrand weak(there points?). I would assume you would want big string characters like that that are hard to kill.

Can the hearlds join units together and have 2 or 3 in same unit of the hounds? (If all had jugernaight upgrade).

Does anyone run monster spam



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry didn't use quotes

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/01 23:21:34


When in doubt do what seems hardest  
   
Made in gb
Gavin Thorpe




Kugath is weak because you can simply accomplish more with a stock GUO. He pays a lot of points for what is basically a S4 Battlecannon and +1 Wound. These are not bad things to have, but the tradeoff is that he has no real psychic presence and cannot take any upgrades.
The whole point of a GUO is to provide Grimoire/Biomancy support while being impossible to stop, and it is a job at which it excels. Kugath loses both of these in favour of a decent ranged attack, but ultimately you'd be paying essentially double the points cost of a Leman Russ with none of the anti-vehicle opportunities. A GUO with Biomancy and 1-2 Greater Gifts is almost always going to be tougher, offer greater army support and at a comparable cost.

Skarbrand is disappointing because I absolutely love him. He has a profile to make some Apocalypse units weep, an incredibly buff and simply murders anything without EW. However he loses his wings, and people know exactly how dangerous he is. That consigns him to Deepstrike because he will simply be shot by *everything* if he tries to walk it.
Furthermore, while he packs an absolutely mental melee punch, he loses the best defence a Bloodthirster has while also losing access to Greater Gifts. He is squishy, relatively speaking.
He is unbelievably cool and that Aura of his goes a long way, but it is rare that he will survive long enough to get stuck in. Most of the time he will Deep Strike just before a big charge and use that Aura for some carnage, then get shot off the board.

Heralds can certainly join each other and it is generally a very good idea to do so. Multiple Heralds working together will save points on Locus upgrades and make the most of any applied Blessings, saving you valuable Warp Charges.

Yes, monster-spam is very popular. Look up 'Flying Circus' for ideas, but it is generally Fateweaver, 3 Daemon Princes and a second Greater Daemon to unlock the 'best' Heavy Princes.

WarOne wrote:
At the very peak of his power, Mat Ward stood at the top echelons of the GW hierarchy, second only to Satan in terms of personal power within the company.
 
   
Made in au
Cultist of Nurgle with Open Sores





Another thanks to Mozzamanx for the excellent informative posts.

Good to know what I can potentially utilise when I want to ally with Daemons in the future.

Medium of Death wrote:
I am pleased at your Khorne themed list and your victories. Truly, Chaos is begin to grow once again.
 
   
 
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