Is Chaos really so bad?

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**DarthOvious**

illuknisaa wrote:
ashrog wrote:
There are no 'good guys' in 40k. That is one of the major bullet points of the setting. Everyone is some level of amoral, bloodthirsty or downright evil. The difference between the Imperium and Chaos is:

The Imperium commits atrocities because it is necessary for the survival of the human race.
Chaos commits atrocities 'cause it's fun.

Can there be 'good' Chaos followers? Sure. For a while. But Chaos is a corrupting force. The noble knight who follows Khorne will eventually become a blood-mad berserker.

Someone may turn to Chaos believing it will give them the power to 'set things right', but once they have that power, they only crave more power and control.

Chaos did not create itself. Chaos mirrors the feelings of mortals (oomies and panzee).

Eldar partied (really) hard and that lead to the creation of Slaanesh. Slaanesh did not just "poof" into existance.

Chaos is only as evil as you are.

Thats the point however isn't it? Slaneesh only bursted into existence because the Eldar got so depraved in the first place. So Slaneesh is a manifestation of their depravity. When are going to see a chaos god burst into existence because someone became too charitable?

From what I been told, the big four chaos gods aren't the only chaos gods around and you do actually get benevolent chaos gods. They just don't fool around with the affairs of man.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyran wrote:
DarthOvious wrote:
I went for the total evil option. Only Tzeentch has any redeeming factors about him and thats only because he schemes for the sake of scheeming and will even mess up his own plans, for the day when Tzeentch stops scheming is the day he stops existing. So its a case of survival for him.

The others however are just totally evil beyond belief.

Khorne - The god of murder, need I say more? Some people say he is also the god of martial honour but so what? He craves skulls for the skull throne like some freaky psychopath who buries dead bodies in his basement and likes nothing better than to take enjoyment in massive slaughter. Totally evil.

Slaneesh - The god of sick and twisted deviant pleasures. I don't think I need to expand on this really. We're talking pleasure from torturing people, pleasure from being tortured, drugs, etc, etc. And thats without all the sick sexual stuff which I just won't go into.

Nurgle - The fat and smelly god who like to spread disease and suffering. Oh ghee great. And to think he is described as being one of the more caring chaos gods. If his idea of caring for people is to give them some sort of disease that eats away at their body and makes them infested with bugs, then he generally needs to see a psychiatrist.

Thats it really, I don't think I really need to say any more on this.

All the Chaos Gods have some redeeming qualities.
Tzeentch: God of hope
Slaanesh: God of pleasure and perfection.
Khorne: God of martial prowes and honor.
Nurgle: God of life (ironically) and love.
And Malice, which is the Chaos God of anarchy, so that makes it the God of freedom.

I already mentioned Khorne and explained why. Tzeentch is only redeeming because he is a schemer, rather than a deviant who takes pleasure in murder, deviant acts or casuses sickness and disease.

**sierra 1247**

Slaanesh, fair enough. It is a perverse, dishonourable and weak entity. The path of excess is without a doubt evil, there are no good sides to Slaanesh.
Tzeentch, im not too sure on really.
Khorne and Nurgle are the better gods though, Khorne is the god of martial honour and battle, he honours the strongest warriors who fight to win without using deception.
Nurgle is a slightly nicer god as well, i mean sure he spreads horrific plagues, but if you side with him he spares you the pain from the pestilence.

**PredaKhaine**

sierra 1247 wrote:
Slaanesh, fair enough. It is a perverse, dishonourable and weak entity. The path of excess is without a doubt evil, there are no good sides to Slaanesh.
Tzeentch, im not too sure on really.
Khorne and Nurgle are the better gods though, Khorne is the god of martial honour and battle, he honours the strongest warriors who fight to win without using deception.
Nurgle is a slightly nicer god as well, i mean sure he spreads horrific plagues, but if you side with him he spares you the pain from the pestilence.

There's gotta be good sides or people wouldn't be attracted to worship them - Slaanesh can give you charisma - whether you use it to get 'friendly' with people or become a demagogue is up to you.
Then there's love - Slaanesh can make people (possibly anyone?) love you.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthOvious wrote:
When are going to see a chaos god burst into existence because someone became too charitable?

erm... GW when people try to give rules/points values away over the internet?

**Tyran**

DarthOvious wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:
ashrog wrote:
There are no 'good guys' in 40k. That is one of the major bullet points of the setting. Everyone is some level of amoral, bloodthirsty or downright evil. The difference between the Imperium and Chaos is:

The Imperium commits atrocities because it is necessary for the survival of the human race.
Chaos commits atrocities 'cause it's fun.

Can there be 'good' Chaos followers? Sure. For a while. But Chaos is a corrupting force. The noble knight who follows Khorne will eventually become a blood-mad berserker.

Someone may turn to Chaos believing it will give them the power to 'set things right', but once they have that power, they only crave more power and control.

Chaos did not create itself. Chaos mirrors the feelings of mortals (oomies and panzee).

Eldar partied (really) hard and that lead to the creation of Slaanesh. Slaanesh did not just "poof" into existance.

Chaos is only as evil as you are.

Thats the point however isn't it? Slaneesh only bursted into existence because the Eldar got so depraved in the first place. So Slaneesh is a manifestation of their depravity. When are going to see a chaos god burst into existence because someone became too charitable?

From what I been told, the big four chaos gods aren't the only chaos gods around and you do actually get benevolent chaos gods. They just don't fool around with the affairs of man.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyran wrote:
DarthOvious wrote:
I went for the total evil option. Only Tzeentch has any redeeming factors about him and thats only because he schemes for the sake of scheeming and will even mess up his own plans, for the day when Tzeentch stops scheming is the day he stops existing. So its a case of survival for him.

The others however are just totally evil beyond belief.

Khorne - The god of murder, need I say more? Some people say he is also the god of martial honour but so what? He craves skulls for the skull throne like some freaky psychopath who buries dead bodies in his basement and likes nothing better than to take enjoyment in massive slaughter. Totally evil.

Slaneesh - The god of sick and twisted deviant pleasures. I don't think I need to expand on this really. We're talking pleasure from torturing people, pleasure from being tortured, drugs, etc, etc. And thats without all the sick sexual stuff which I just won't go into.

Nurgle - The fat and smelly god who like to spread disease and suffering. Oh ghee great. And to think he is described as being one of the more caring chaos gods. If his idea of caring for people is to give them some sort of disease that eats away at their body and makes them infested with bugs, then he generally needs to see a psychiatrist.

Thats it really, I don't think I really need to say any more on this.

All the Chaos Gods have some redeeming qualities.
Tzeentch: God of hope
Slaanesh: God of pleasure and perfection.
Khorne: God of martial prowes and honor.
Nurgle: God of life (ironically) and love.
And Malice, which is the Chaos God of anarchy, so that makes it the God of freedom.

I already mentioned Khorne and explained why. Tzeentch is only redeeming because he is a schemer, rather than a deviant who takes pleasure in murder, deviant acts or casuses sickness and disease.

The Chaos Gods are creations of the mortals in the Materium.
All the Chaos Gods have redeeming qualities, that doesn't mean that they aren't evil. It does mean that it is impossible to not feed them because their domains are far greater than "evil things". Do you love someone? feeding Nurgle. Are you an honorable person? feeding Khorne. Do you have pleasure in your life? feeding Slaanesh. Do you have hopes and dreams and plans for the future? feeding Tzeentch. Do you like freedom? feeding Malice.

And there is already a Chaos God of charity, and it is Nurgle.

**Melissia**

Even assuming that they DO have redeeming qualities-- which GW has not been consistent about at all...

Tyran wrote:
Tzeentch: God of hope

Which he twists in to destructive impulses and endless rebellion and schemes which will never amount to anything.

Tyran wrote:
Slaanesh: God of pleasure and perfection.

Which s/he twists in to hedonism and overindulgence, uncaring for the lives of those that are used, abused, wasted, and tossed aside for the pleasure of their chosen.

Tyran wrote:
Khorne: God of martial prowes and honor.

Which is quickly forgotten in a storm of blood and bone, and ritual sacrifice of the innocent as their skulls are piled on high.

Tyran wrote:
Nurgle: God of life (ironically) and love.

Whom loves disease and bugs more than humans, thus allowing them to waste human life away in order to allow the disease and bugs to live.

Twisting "good" emotions in to evil ones doesn't make them less evil . Arguably, it makes them MORE evil.

Tyran wrote:
It does mean that it is impossible to not feed them because their domains are far greater than "evil things". Do you love someone? feeding Nurgle. Are you an honorable person? feeding Khorne. Do you have pleasure in your life? feeding Slaanesh. Do you have hopes and dreams and plans for the future? feeding Tzeentch.

No.

Nurgle does not gain sustenance from love, nor does Khorne from honor, nor mere pleasure feed Slaanesh, nor dreams Tzeentch. Nurgle needs rot and decay to grow, and Khorne needs bloodshed and hate. Slaanesh does not need mere pleasure, but rather acts of EXCESS, whether they be pleasure or anything else. And Tzeentch needs plotting and scheming.

**Crimson**

Melissia wrote:

Twisting "good" emotions in to evil ones doesn't make them less evil . Arguably, it makes them MORE evil.

And Imperium's good quality of protecting humanity is twisted into oppressive fascist dystopia.

**DarthOvious**

Tyran wrote:
The Chaos Gods are creations of the mortals in the Materium.
All the Chaos Gods have redeeming qualities, that doesn't mean that they aren't evil. It does mean that it is impossible to not feed them because their domains are far greater than "evil things". Do you love someone? feeding Nurgle.

Yes because nothing says I love you like giving them a disease as a present.

Are you an honorable person? feeding Khorne.

And the throne made of skull? Just a little bit too creapy maybe?

Do you have pleasure in your life? feeding Slaanesh.

Pleasure from what exactly? We're talking torture, drugs and a all maner of sick things. He burst into creation at the height of the decadence of the Eldar empire. Really says a lot there.

Do you have hopes and dreams and plans for the future? feeding Tzeentch.

Thats why Tzeentch is redeemable. He is just about change. No more, no less.

Do you like freedom? feeding Malice.

We're sticking to the big four here I think.

And there is already a Chaos God of charity, and it is Nurgle.

So why have I never seen a Plague Marine work down at the local oxfam?

At the end of the day look at the actions of the followers. They don't like the imperium, fair enough, but they all too easily slaughter the innocents when they invade a planet and they get rewarded by their gods for it.

Having a slightly good side to you doesn't redeem the vast evil that those entitties do. They have no reasons for what they do other than selfishness. Its like calling the Paedophille down the road a decent bloke because he bought you a beer sometimes in the past.

**Melissia**

Crimson wrote:
Melissia wrote:

Twisting "good" emotions in to evil ones doesn't make them less evil . Arguably, it makes them MORE evil.

And Imperium's good quality of protecting humanity is twisted into oppressive fascist dystopia.

If it wasn't an oppressive dystopia (I dispute that it's fascist; that entails a set of values not necessarily shown by the Imperium), it'd have fallen to the traitors of Chaos long ago. Just look at the Great Crusade and what happened when idealism and rationalism was relied upon then.

40k is not a nice place to live in. It's a horrible place by default. It isn't the Imperium that is necessarily held in high esteem, but the heroes and saints that keep the Imperium running, that grant a little bit of light in the darkness of the everyday lives of a person in 40k.

The "heroes" of Chaos, meanwhile, actively seek to turn their worlds in to living nightmares for the sake of turning their worlds in to living nightmares.

**sierra 1247**

[

Tyran wrote:
Khorne: God of martial prowes and honor.

Which is quickly forgotten in a storm of blood and bone, and ritual sacrifice of the innocent as their skulls are piled on high.

The first casualty of war is innocence, this entire setting is an unforgiving universe where the slightest mistake will see you killed and slaughtered in horrific manners. In hindsight being butchered by some Khornate bezerkers would be much less painless than the constant mutation from Tzeentch and the "stuff" that Slaanesh would do to you..

**Melissia**

That's assuming the berserkers get to you. But you could simply be rounded up to be a painful blood sacrifice as your soul is devoured by daemons to grant cultists power instead.

**Crimson**

Melissia wrote:

The "heroes" of Chaos, meanwhile, actively seek to turn their worlds in to living nightmares for the sake of turning their worlds in to living nightmares.

But you only think that's bad because of your limited perspective. What you call living nightmare is resplendent manifestation of divine to the followers of Chaos.

**iGuy91**

Chaos falls into the realm of "chaotic evil" the only thing the respect is strength and accomplishments. You can do as you wish, as long as the will of your stronger superiors is not impinged.
The Imperium falls into the realm of "Lawful Evil/Lawful Neutral"
They do what they must to maintain their domination by authoritarian means. Some Parts are more evil and others more neutral.

The dark eldar are Neutral Evil by definition, and are by far the most terrifying, seeking to actively go out and do evil and cause pain.

This page adaquately explains this if you read the definitions.
http://easydamus.com/alignment.html

**GorillaWarfare**

If you don't think Chaos is evil enough to justify the Imperium's brutal policies, then you are not imaging something evil enough.

**clively**

In a grimdark universe where there is only war I'd say that the least "evil" faction is the one that is totally honest with itself and it's members.

That would be chaos.

Everyone else are lying d*bags. At least with Chaos you *know* their goal is the obliteration or enslavement of all others.

**Tyran**

clively wrote:
In a grimdark universe where there is only war I'd say that the least "evil" faction is the one that is totally honest with itself and it's members.

That would be chaos.

Everyone else are lying d*bags. At least with Chaos you *know* their goal is the obliteration or enslavement of all others.

Tyranids and Orks are more "honest" than Chaos.

**illuknisaa**

The difference between good and evil is very small.

There are two goat herder. Both have 2 goats but the next day one herder gains a third goat while the other does not. If the other herder is good he wishes he would also get a goat but if he is evil he wishes the other herder loses a goat.

Imperium spends it's entire existance enslaving and eradiating the unclean/xenos. The imperium is filled with hate and has always been. This lead to the creation of chaos which mirrors emotions of the imperium.

Chaos is nothing but manifestation of emotions. Emotions may lead to evil things but no emotion is evil. Only actions can be evil. If a person is fully lead by emotions (ie the person is hopelessly in love with someone) is that person responsible of his or her actions?

**Tyran**

illuknisaa wrote:
The difference between good and evil is very small.

There are two goat herder. Both have 2 goats but the next day one herder gains a third goat while the other does not. If the other herder is good he wishes he would also get a goat but if he is evil he wishes the other herder loses a goat.

Imperium spends it's entire existance enslaving and eradiating the unclean/xenos. The imperium is filled with hate and has always been. This lead to the creation of chaos which mirrors emotions of the imperium.

Chaos is nothing but manifestation of emotions. Emotions may lead to evil things but no emotion is evil. Only actions can be evil. If a person is fully lead by emotions (ie the person is hopelessly in love with someone) is that person responsible of his or her actions?

Yes he/she is.

**gaovinni**

Sure they are bad guys but to me the Dark Eldar seem way more evil and sinister in the end than Chaos does.

**Tyran**

gaovinni wrote:
Sure they are bad guys but to me the Dark Eldar seem way more evil and sinister in the end than Chaos does.

Chaos is evil by nature, DE are evil just to be dicks.

**illuknisaa**

Tyran wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:
The difference between good and evil is very small.

There are two goat herder. Both have 2 goats but the next day one herder gains a third goat while the other does not. If the other herder is good he wishes he would also get a goat but if he is evil he wishes the other herder loses a goat.

Imperium spends it's entire existance enslaving and eradiating the unclean/xenos. The imperium is filled with hate and has always been. This lead to the creation of chaos which mirrors emotions of the imperium.

Chaos is nothing but manifestation of emotions. Emotions may lead to evil things but no emotion is evil. Only actions can be evil. If a person is fully lead by emotions (ie the person is hopelessly in love with someone) is that person responsible of his or her actions?

Yes he/she is.

In our society (ie not 40k) many mental illnesses makes you unfit to be judged because we cannot control or even understand ourselves. Emotions and insticts are also something we cannot control. Why should we be judged by our emotions or instincs?

Tyran wrote:
gaovinni wrote:
Sure they are bad guys but to me the Dark Eldar seem way more evil and sinister in the end than Chaos does.

Chaos is evil by nature, DE are evil just to be dicks.

So DE are less evil because they chose evil over good? It's like you are saying a person that voluntary murders someone is less evil than a person has know nothing but murder through his whole life.

**sing your life**

THEY ARE HERESY BURN THEM!!!!!!!

[That was fun to write]

**BladeSwinga**

Tyran wrote:
gaovinni wrote:
Sure they are bad guys but to me the Dark Eldar seem way more evil and sinister in the end than Chaos does.

Chaos is evil by nature, DE are evil just to be dicks.

DE must inflict pain to survive, same as you or I need to eat. The DE's nature has twisted to the point where they are evil by it. With the probable exception of Khorne, you could further the ways of your gods without resorting to what everyone is damning as 'evil' acts. Chaos is not evil by nature, but the seemingly easiest way of worship is violence. What also needs to be kept in mind is that these are gods and practices developed for a wargame. Most civilian life we hear about is Imperial, and even the CSM codex is told from the point of view of the Imperium. There will be a considerable amount of bias against Chaos, because they were designed to be antagonists. While this skewed lens is in place, it'd make sense for a lot of people to be vehemently against Chaos. I'm not claiming that they are saints, but they do have good qualities as discussed earlier in the thread.

**Tyran**

illuknisaa wrote:
Tyran wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:
The difference between good and evil is very small.

There are two goat herder. Both have 2 goats but the next day one herder gains a third goat while the other does not. If the other herder is good he wishes he would also get a goat but if he is evil he wishes the other herder loses a goat.

Imperium spends it's entire existance enslaving and eradiating the unclean/xenos. The imperium is filled with hate and has always been. This lead to the creation of chaos which mirrors emotions of the imperium.

Chaos is nothing but manifestation of emotions. Emotions may lead to evil things but no emotion is evil. Only actions can be evil. If a person is fully lead by emotions (ie the person is hopelessly in love with someone) is that person responsible of his or her actions?

Yes he/she is.

In our society (ie not 40k) many mental illnesses makes you unfit to be judged because we cannot control or even understand ourselves. Emotions and insticts are also something we cannot control. Why should we be judged by our emotions or instincs?

You can't be judged on your emotions or instincts, but you can be judged if you act upon them.

Tyran wrote:
gaovinni wrote:
Sure they are bad guys but to me the Dark Eldar seem way more evil and sinister in the end than Chaos does.

Chaos is evil by nature, DE are evil just to be dicks.

So DE are less evil because they chose evil over good? It's like you are saying a person that voluntary murders someone is less evil than a person has know nothing but murder through his whole life.

Actually there I wanted to say the opposite.

**Melissia**

Crimson wrote:
But you only think that's bad because of your limited perspective.

No, it's a living nightmare from their perspective, too.

They fully admit that turning all planets in to a living hell, causing everyone to suffer and die horrible deaths and have their souls consumed in incredibly painful ways by daemons is their goal. It's kind of silly watching people defend someone who is not only obviously evil, but REVELS in being evil. They're evil and they love it and admit it and glorify it. I'm fairly certain that they'd kill you for suggesting that they are insufficiently evil.

**Tyran**

BladeSwinga wrote:
Tyran wrote:
gaovinni wrote:
Sure they are bad guys but to me the Dark Eldar seem way more evil and sinister in the end than Chaos does.

Chaos is evil by nature, DE are evil just to be dicks.

DE must inflict pain to survive, same as you or I need to eat. The DE's nature has twisted to the point where they are evil by it. With the probable exception of Khorne, you could further the ways of your gods without resorting to what everyone is damning as 'evil' acts. Chaos is not evil by nature, but the seemingly easiest way of worship is violence. What also needs to be kept in mind is that these are gods and practices developed for a wargame. Most civilian life we hear about is Imperial, and even the CSM codex is told from the point of view of the Imperium. There will be a considerable amount of bias against Chaos, because they were designed to be antagonists. While this skewed lens is in place, it'd make sense for a lot of people to be vehemently against Chaos. I'm not claiming that they are saints, but they do have good qualities as discussed earlier in the thread.

DE could simply go the Craftworld way, but they refuse to do that.
As for Chaos, while it encompass things that aren't evil, it eventually corrupts them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
Crimson wrote:
But you only think that's bad because of your limited perspective.
No, it's a living nightmare from their perspective, too.

They fully admit that turning all planets in to a living hell, causing everyone to suffer and die horrible deaths and have their souls consumed in incredibly painful ways by daemons is their goal.

It's kind of silly watching people defend someone who is not only obviously evil, but REVELS in being evil. They're evil and they love it and admit it and glorify it.

To be fair, Chaos is far funnier and more interesting that the IoM.

**Melissia**

Tyran wrote:
To be fair, Chaos is far funnier and more interesting that the IoM.

I find the Imperium of man far more interesting. Oddly enough, the Imperium is also far more varied than Chaos is, as well.

As for funny, I don't go to 40k for laughs. But if I did, I wouldn't go to the forces of Chaos for it. I'd watch some Orks

**Tyran**

Melissia wrote:
Tyran wrote:
To be fair, Chaos is far funnier and more interesting that the IoM.
I find the Imperium of man far more interesting. Oddly enough, the Imperium is also far more varied than Chaos is, as well.

As for funny, I don't go to 40k for laughs. But if I did, I wouldn't go to the forces of Chaos for it. I'd watch some Orks

Fair enough, I'm in 40k for the Nids.

**Crimson**

I think Chaos worshippers are mostly happy bunch. World Eaters have great time when they butcher some poor bastards, and of course pleasure is the whole point of Slaanesh. So it works for them. Sure it means some unlucky sods gets horribly sacrificed or few planets get eaten by daemons, but you know, eggs, omelets.

**Kain**

Crimson wrote:
Or maybe because Chaos is reflection of human psyches, and most humans live in a horrible fascist hell-hole, the evilness of chaos is indirectly caused by inhuman attitudes of the Imperium?

Chaos being horrible dates back to the War in Heaven where the turmoil of the millions upon millions of years of increasingly desperate warfare to stop the Necron advance resulted in more and more highly psychic races mucking up everything warpside. The current face of Chaos is influenced primarily by Humans and Eldar primarily because they're the flavor of the month while other factions either have their own gods that hog the lions share of their power or are too minor/unconnected to the warp as we know it to contribute.

As for Chaos.

The Mortal followers of Chaos have quotes like "do evil for evil's sake". They know they're doing wrong, and they love every second of it.

**Tyran**

Maybe we should separate Chaos in the mortal/ex-mortal followers and the immortal host.

The followers are evil for evil sake, the Daemons and Gods are evil because it is in their nature.