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Can you target an unit, embarked within a transport, with psychic abilities or other effects like a DE Cronos Engine handing out pain tokens?

I looked through the BRB on transports and the FAQs and could not find anything that says you can't; however, figured I'd ask to clarify such.

UPDATE:

I just found a question in the BRB FAQ asking about targeting vehicles or embarked units with effects that force leadership tests. The answer is in that situation; however, I would presume this is because both are fearless and not because they are not able to be targeted. Am still curious on others' opinions.

You can't draw line of sight to them, nor can you draw measurement to the model or the base. So no, you can't target them with anything that requires a target - nor can you can use anything that requires a range. It pretty much covers just about everything out there, at least that I can think of.

It is the requirement to measure to the base of the targeted unit that prevents you from targeting units in a transport, though there is probably a straight up rule somewhere in the book reminding us that units in a transport can not be targeted. While logic would dictate that they are in the transport, therefore the distance is the same, the rules do not work on this logic. They tell us that the unit in the transport is currently 'off the table' which makes it impossible to make the measurements required. Even if you had a weapon that was an unlimited range and didn't require line of sight you still could not target the unit in the transport because you still are required to measure, and simply can not measure to or from a model that is not on the table.

Ok. I thoughts that what it was but i just couldn't find the ruling/rationale to back it up.

Thanks

JinxDragon wrote:
It is the requirement to measure to the base of the targeted unit that prevents you from targeting units in a transport

This is incorrect.

p78 wrote:If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.

You can absolutely measure to an embarked unit. You obviously can't draw LoS however.

Good catch, thought I was over-looking something.

What page has the rules telling you, outright, that you can not target a unit embarked into a transport?

For psykers, top of pg 67 under Declare Target.

What about standard shooting attacks?

Well, you can't draw LoS so any shooting attack that requires LoS is denied, and the bit that talks about using the vehicle's hull for measuring distance to the embarked unit expressly forbids using that for shooting, so you have no way to measure to the unit. I think between the combination of the two, shooting attacks are not an option. The only thing that I still see up in the air (haven't really dug deep enough for it though) is special rules/wargear/abilities (that don't require LoS).

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Well, you can't draw LoS so any shooting attack that requires LoS is denied, and the bit that talks about using the vehicle's hull for measuring distance to the embarked unit expressly forbids using that for shooting, so you have no way to measure to the unit. I think between the combination of the two, shooting attacks are not an option. The only thing that I still see up in the air (haven't really dug deep enough for it though) is special rules/wargear/abilities (that don't require LoS).

It specifically forbids using that for measuring the embarked unit's shooting. It does not forbid my Biovores from measuring to the hull of a Devilfish to get a range for your embarked Fire Warriors.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Well, you can't draw LoS so any shooting attack that requires LoS is denied, and the bit that talks about using the vehicle's hull for measuring distance to the embarked unit expressly forbids using that for shooting, so you have no way to measure to the unit. I think between the combination of the two, shooting attacks are not an option. The only thing that I still see up in the air (haven't really dug deep enough for it though) is special rules/wargear/abilities (that don't require LoS).

It specifically forbids using that for measuring the embarked unit's shooting. It does not forbid my Biovores from measuring to the hull of a Devilfish to get a range for your embarked Fire Warriors.

Good point, I must have glazed over the "it's" (meaning the embarked unit).

Which brings us in a full circle and answers all the questions.

Would that mean weapons that do not require LOS can shoot at embark units? Missile-sides.....

 c0j1r0 wrote:
Would that mean weapons that do not require LOS can shoot at embark units? Missile-sides.....

Furthermore if something just says "select a friendly unit within X inches" would such be able to select an embarked unit?

This reminds me of the polymorphine debate about allocating wounds to units in transports. Still not sure if that was answered.

 c0j1r0 wrote:
Would that mean weapons that do not require LOS can shoot at embark units? Missile-sides.....

I would say that SMS Broadsides won't be able to target an embarked unit since it's considered a shooting attack. - see rigeld2's p78 quote.

My interpretation of all of this is that you can target an embarked unit for non-shooting, non-psychic special abilities and wargear like the DE Cronos' abilities.

Concur?

 Unholyllama wrote:

 c0j1r0 wrote:
Would that mean weapons that do not require LOS can shoot at embark units? Missile-sides.....

I would say that SMS Broadsides won't be able to target an embarked unit since it's considered a shooting attack. - see rigeld2's p78 quote.

My interpretation of all of this is that you can target an embarked unit for non-shooting, non-psychic special abilities and wargear like the DE Cronos' abilities.

Concur?

You've misread the quote. The restriction for shooting only applies to the embarked unit firing out.

 Unholyllama wrote:

 c0j1r0 wrote:
Would that mean weapons that do not require LOS can shoot at embark units? Missile-sides.....

I would say that SMS Broadsides won't be able to target an embarked unit since it's considered a shooting attack. - see rigeld2's p78 quote.

My interpretation of all of this is that you can target an embarked unit for non-shooting, non-psychic special abilities and wargear like the DE Cronos' abilities.

Concur?

I think you are misreading the pg78 quote (much like I did). The bit in parentheses in that quote only restricts you from using the hull for measuring for the embarked unit's shooting attacks (because you are told earlier to measure from fire points).

EDIT: rigeld2 =

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 Unholyllama wrote:

 c0j1r0 wrote:
Would that mean weapons that do not require LOS can shoot at embark units? Missile-sides.....

I would say that SMS Broadsides won't be able to target an embarked unit since it's considered a shooting attack. - see rigeld2's p78 quote.

My interpretation of all of this is that you can target an embarked unit for non-shooting, non-psychic special abilities and wargear like the DE Cronos' abilities.

Concur?

I think you are misreading the pg78 quote (much like I did). The bit in parentheses in that quote only restricts you from using the hull for measuring for the embarked unit's shooting attacks (because you are told earlier to measure from fire points).

EDIT: rigeld2 =

Ah so yes....then it's still a gray area in terms of if you can select an embarked unit with such things. hmm.

What about open topped transports like Ork Trukks or Battlewagons? These vehicles usually cannot physically hold all the models that they are supposed to transport. Most players I know simply place a few models from the squad into the back of the vehicle and the rest off the table. Can these models that are "in play" be targetted (with shooting or Psychic attacks)?

Is there a requirement to physically place models into the back of an open topped vehicle or can they all be placed off table if desired?

What if a blast weapon scatters onto the exposed models in the open topped transport?

There is no requirement to place any models on an open-topped transport.
No, these models cannot be targeted as the unit should have been completely removed from the table.
It's just an easy way to show what unit is inside the transport.

To my knowledge, there is no rules requiring you to put any model on top of the transport and you are in fact informed to simply remove them from the table and 'remember' which transport they are in. Given that your players are likely doing so for ease of reference, to know which unit is in what transport easily, there is no reason to penalize them for this curtsy by simply stating 'I can see it on the table, therefore I can shoot it.' Those models representing the unit embarked are off the table along side the unit they came from for all real purposes.

PS: Still want to apologize for misreading the opening post at this time, I didn't realize it was limited to just psychic attacks and addressed it as a shooting attack. I've always believed the thing preventing the unit from being targeted was the fact it was not on the table, hence distance and line of sight could not be confirmed. I did know of the rule to measure to the hull of the vehicle but I thought that had a far smaller 'scope' then it apparently has, in short that it could only be used for special rules and abilities such as those which effect units without needing to directly target them but now I am left wondering what prevents me from shooting at embarked units if I can get around the line of sight requirements... which as Tau I can so easily.

Still hoping someone can direct me to a place where it outright states you can not target units inside a transport, cause I've always believed it was there.

JinxDragon wrote:

Still hoping someone can direct me to a place where it outright states you can not target units inside a transport, cause I've always believed it was there.

I did some searching on a pdf version of the rulebook I have (I also own a legal copy of the physical book) and I cannot find anywhere in the rules that says you cannot outright target an embarked unit. It seems to be inferred in many places due to measuring from the target model's base as well as LOS restrictions; however, I cannot not find it being explicitly stated.

That said, Rigeld2's response citing P78 of the BRB in conjunction with the context of talking about embarked units does make it sound like you COULD target an embarked unit if A) LOS is not needed and B) the transport's hull is within range. Blast Markers and Templates wouldn't be able to since they require visible base of models to calculate hits.

This seems like a loophole in the Transport Rules but I can't find a place that would close it. Until it's FAQ'ed, it would look like Missle-sides and things like the Cronos could select an embarked unit as their targets.

I know I am not one of 'those ******* guys,' the group which give us rule-lawyers a bad name, so I won't be applying that loophole to the table top. Ok, maybe I will try and use it once just to see the reaction of my opponent as my smart missiles simply teleport through the solid wall of the transport. It is defiantly something I will bring up in a 'did you know, the rules allow this' sort of way until we can find a outright rule or FAQ that closes this loophole for good.

JinxDragon wrote:
I know I am not one of 'those ******* guys,' the group which give us rule-lawyers a bad name, so I won't be applying that loophole to the table top. Ok, maybe I will try and use it once just to see the reaction of my opponent as my smart missiles simply teleport through the solid wall of the transport. It is defiantly something I will bring up in a 'did you know, the rules allow this' sort of way until we can find a outright rule or FAQ that closes this loophole for good.

Agreed. :-)

That said - I can see this being useful for effects like the DE Cronos Parasite engine that can buff troops within a 12" radius and does not call for a LoS. These type of abilities are few but I can see them being a less TFG move than missle-sides.