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Hi Dakkites,

Sorry if this has already been asked but I cannot find it.

Hope you guys can help me.

Two questions to confirm.

First
Entropic Strike affects vehicles before armour penetration rolls.
If used against non vehicles, when exactly does the armour negation effect take place?
So if I charge, say Centurions, with multiple units eg Lychguard and Praetorians with Voidblades.
I choose to resolve the Praetorians rolls first and wound 1 Centurion, than would it mean my Lychguard can wound that Centurion without allowing an armour save?
My FLGS is saying it takes effect after the Initiative step is completed, thus since Praetorians and Lychguard are the same Initiative the Centurion is still allowed a save.

What do you guys think?

Second
Entropic Strike turns Armour Save to '-' rather then ignoring armour therefore Invulnerable saves becomes '-' which means NO saves for Greater Daemons, Farseers or C'tans if wounded. Agreed?
How about units with more then 1 type of save? Terminators with 2+, 5++ or Stormshield 3++? Does it only negate the save used or all types of save?

Thanks for your help


-Dert

 DerT84 wrote:
Entropic Strike turns Armour Save to '-' rather then ignoring armour therefore Invulnerable saves becomes '-' which means NO saves for Greater Daemons, Farseers or C'tans if wounded. Agreed?

No.
Invulnerable saves are not armour saves, so are unaffected by Entropic Strike.

1) You do exactly as it tells you - an *unsaved* wound from ES means the model loses its armour save. You cannot have an unsaved wound until you have made any appropriate saves.

2) An armour save of "-" has no bearing on invulnerable saves. Invulnerable, Armour and Cover are different types of saves, and negating one has no automatic effect on the others.

Entropic Strike doesn't ignore armor either. They still get any armor saves they are allowed. But the instant they suffer an unsaved wound they lose all armor saves. Invulnerable saves are unaffected.

And since all attacks at the same initiative step are simultaneous you would not delete their armor save till the end of the step. You can't choose to resolve the Entropic Strike first and deny armor to the attacks that follow it.

You allocate wounds one at a time so if the first wound allocated to a model becomes unsaved, the rest will wound the model automatically.

Invulnerable saves are unaffected of course...

 Grey Templar wrote:
And since all attacks at the same initiative step are simultaneous you would not delete their armor save till the end of the step.

Attacks are, allocation of those wounds are not.

You can't choose to resolve the Entropic Strike first and deny armor to the attacks that follow it.

You explicitly can. You must, in fact, separate wounds with special rules attached from wounds with no special rules attached and tell your opponent which ones you wish to allocate first.

 grendel083 wrote:

 DerT84 wrote:
Entropic Strike turns Armour Save to '-' rather then ignoring armour therefore Invulnerable saves becomes '-' which means NO saves for Greater Daemons, Farseers or C'tans if wounded. Agreed?

No.
Invulnerable saves are not armour saves, so are unaffected by Entropic Strike.

Ahh ok that explains the Second question then.


Regarding the first one, in the example I meant to say "Unsaved Wound".
So would the Lychguard bypass the Centurion's armour if they managed to hit and wound?

You must, in fact, separate wounds with special rules attached from wounds with no special rules attached and tell your opponent which ones you wish to allocate first.

Does this mean I would roll each To Wound separate with my Voidblade Praetorians in case there was a Rending rolled to see if further Successful Wound rolls do not allow a save?


Thanks in advance.

-Dert

 DerT84 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 DerT84 wrote:
Entropic Strike turns Armour Save to '-' rather then ignoring armour therefore Invulnerable saves becomes '-' which means NO saves for Greater Daemons, Farseers or C'tans if wounded. Agreed?

No.
Invulnerable saves are not armour saves, so are unaffected by Entropic Strike.

Ahh ok that explains the Second question then.


Regarding the first one, in the example I meant to say "Unsaved Wound".
So would the Lychguard bypass the Centurion's armour if they managed to hit and wound?

You must, in fact, separate wounds with special rules attached from wounds with no special rules attached and tell your opponent which ones you wish to allocate first.

Does this mean I would roll each To Wound separate with my Voidblade Praetorians in case there was a Rending rolled to see if further Successful Wound rolls do not allow a save?


Thanks in advance.

-Dert

You'd roll all rolls to-hit. Roll to-wound. Amongst those you'll have wounds , rending wounds and failures to wound.
IIRC You'll then choose to allocate either the normal saves ones or the rending ones first.
Once you've been through the wound pool you started with, you 'll allocate the other ones.

I cant remember the voidblade rules off the top of my head, but if they are rending and entropic strike, you would roll all of that units attacks, keep track of any 6's to wound and could therefore resolve the wounds in the order of your choosing.

An example, you attack 3 centurions and inflict 3 normal wounds and 3 rending wounds. you choose for all 3 guys (provided they have the same saves, to each take one rending and one regular. This would in essence kill all 3 because each would take a rending, which ignores their armor and applies entropic strike, then take a normal, which they now cant save and so die.

 gameandwatch wrote:
I cant remember the voidblade rules off the top of my head, but if they are rending and entropic strike, you would roll all of that units attacks, keep track of any 6's to wound and could therefore resolve the wounds in the order of your choosing.

An example, you attack 3 centurions and inflict 3 normal wounds and 3 rending wounds. you choose for all 3 guys (provided they have the same saves, to each take one rending and one regular. This would in essence kill all 3 because each would take a rending, which ignores their armor and applies entropic strike, then take a normal, which they now cant save and so die.

This is incorrect. Wounds would not be spread. You allocate to the nearest model until it is dead or the wound pool is empty. In your example, the first centurion takes 2 rending wounds and dies, the second takes a rending and loses his armor save due to entropic strike and then dies to the first regular wound (since he has no armor save ). The last two wounds would go to the last centurion, who can make his normal saves.

I am not saying they are spread, but couldnt you to the first guy, one rend and one regular, then second guy the same, third guy the same, allocating nearest to furthest?

All the wounds from one wound pool must be allocated before moving to the next one. Pg 15. So you either allocate all the Rending first, or the regular ones.

gotcha, IGNORE MEE!!!

Fragile wrote:
All the wounds from one wound pool must be allocated before moving to the next one. Pg 15. So you either allocate all the Rending first, or the regular ones.

There is only one wound pool, which is then grouped into different S//Ap/special rules.

You resolve each group of wounding-hits in total, as you state

Same result, just being more precise on terminology

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
All the wounds from one wound pool must be allocated before moving to the next one. Pg 15. So you either allocate all the Rending first, or the regular ones.

There is only one wound pool, which is then grouped into different S//Ap/special rules.

You resolve each group of wounding-hits in total, as you state

Same result, just being more precise on terminology

True enough.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
All the wounds from one wound pool must be allocated before moving to the next one. Pg 15. So you either allocate all the Rending first, or the regular ones.

There is only one wound pool, which is then grouped into different S//Ap/special rules.

You resolve each group of wounding-hits in total, as you state

Same result, just being more precise on terminology

Awesome, thanks guys