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Scenario: A unit consisting of a T6 Warboss on Bike and a T2 Grot is engaged in Close Combat. Majority Toughness for the unit is T6.The Warboss is involved in a Challenge. Does the Grot still benefit from the T6 Majority Toughness?

Q: Do models in a multiple Toughness value unit who are
involved in a Challenge still use the majority Toughness of their
unit? (p64)
A: No, they use their own Toughness value.

Based on this, I would say that the Grot no longer benefits.

 Happyjew wrote:
Q: Do models in a multiple Toughness value unit who are
involved in a Challenge still use the majority Toughness of their
unit? (p64)
A: No, they use their own Toughness value.

Based on this, I would say that the Grot no longer benefits.

This FAQ only refers to the models in the Challenge, not the models 'outside' of the Challenge.

That's why he said "based on" not "according"

using the FAQ as an example though, I would say it is treated as two separate combats: Challenge then non-challenge.

otherwise you will get scenarios where people try and cut this the other way, giving the Bikerboss a value of T2

 IHateNids wrote:
otherwise you will get scenarios where people try and cut this the other way, giving the Bikerboss a value of T2

Er... how...?

you have, for example, abaddon and 3 Tzeentch Termies.

There is one person with T5, 3 with T4. People will try and say Ab has T4 with the Majority toughness.

Unless you treat challenge and non-challenge as different combats. Which is what you should do.

Which is what I said

 IHateNids wrote:
you have, for example, abaddon and 3 Tzeentch Termies.

There is one person with T5, 3 with T4. People will try and say Ab has T4 with the Majority toughness.

Unless you treat challenge and non-challenge as different combats. Which is what you should do.

Which is what I said

The FAQ addresses exactly that.
What I'd doesn't do, is the other way round.
Abbadon and 1 terminator, while the former is in a challenge, is the later still bound by majority?

That's a completely different example to the original question, though, which was a unit of 1 IC and one model with lesser toughness.


It's also not an issue. The guy in the challenge doesn't use majority toughness because the FAQ says so. There is nothing saying that the inverse is true.

It's a reasonable assumption, but for the moment it's not actually supported by the rules.

Which was my point, or at least that's how I intended it to be.

Using that FAQ, to give it one way, would get people trying to force it the other way. Which it clearly disallows.

So I would say treat them as different combats.

In my example, one Ab vs Overlord, one 3 Terms vs 5 Lychguard, in yours, one Grot vs w/e one Bikerboss vs the attached IC.

Majority toughness aside

 IHateNids wrote:
Which was my point, or at least that's how I intended it to be.

Using that FAQ, to give it one way, would get people trying to force it the other way. Which it clearly disallows.

Either that makes no sense, or I am still missing your point. Are you seriously trying to suggest that because the FAQ says you can't do it, people will try to say that you can?

Raw would seem clear. The unit uses majority toughness, show me anything that allows you to avoid this. In the challenge, the model fight the challenge benefits from his and only his toughness as it is only that model fighting in said challenge and the FAQ made that quite clear.

So, you get a T6 Grot, not that it is likely to matter, but still.

Ive seen it happen, and it is probably correct that it makes no sense.

And im saying that if it works in one direction, people will try and force it in the other. Which it doesn't allow, as you've said.

So it is better to forget all about it.

Apologies if this is just more confusing...

 IHateNids wrote:
Ive seen it happen, and it is probably correct that it makes no sense.

And im saying that if it works in one direction, people will try and force it in the other. Which it doesn't allow, as you've said.

So there is no problem, since you have a clear ruling to point to.


The thing is, the FAQ entry on this is a rules change masquerading as a clarification. As per the rules in the rulebook, majority toughness would apply both ways, because there is nothing that says it doesn't.

The FAQ 'clarifies' that the model int he challenge doesn't consider the unit's toughness, without offering any rules support as to why this would be the case. So we know that this is the way it works, we just don't know why. And without that 'why', there is no way to say whether or not we are also supposed to ignore the written rules to determine majority toughness for the unit.

As I said, it's a reasonable assumption, but until GW get their act together, start reading their own rules, and actually write clear FAQs that address those actual written rules, we won't know for sure just what they intend us to do here.

Yeah, I agree with those points. GW has gotten steadily worse with rules writing, and that's just in the 3 years ive been playing properly

The Warboss is still in the unit and there is nothing that prevents the Grot from using 'majority toughness' since the FAQ only applies to models in the challenge. So I would say that he also has T6.

I am not imaging a 'challenge' between a Grot and anything else, it's amazing