Proxies. Do you use them? Do you let your opponent use them?

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**TheCadreofFi'rios**

Do you allow proxies to be used in your games? Do you allow your opponent to use proxies? If so why? Or why not?

**KonTheory**

When I play with my friends in our groups we proxy quite a bit, just like different weapons on models not anything crazy,

like if my friend has a riptide modelled with HBC and wants to use it as an IA then thats all good,
but if the guy doesnt own a riptide at all, then no we dont substitute out a completely different model

that being said... if a brand new model comes out and we are playing a friendly game we will do that to see if its worth buying

**Ascalam**

Other manufacturer models to rep expensive models, or the official model really doesn't suit your army and another model of equivalent size does ? Sure.

'All my meltas are now flamers' - ok, but i'll not be impressed.

'this armless marine is really a Centurion, but this identical one is a chaplain...' - No.

**Alexi**

I have no problem with wargear stuff, just make sure I know who/what. Recently I used a Jump Capt. as a Jump Chaplain testing the Chaplain out. Now...to kit bash me one

**djz05**

Yup mostly its been wargear thats proxied.
(Special weapons on tactical marines are gravguns, power swords are all axes)

I do it, and our gaming crowd is quite lenient about it. No one abuses it though unlike from what I've heard (an empty monstrous base as riptide is one of the worst ones i've read). For the longest time I ran stormravens as talons because i hate the flying guppy look (someone showed me a good conversion though so i bought 2 and did a gunship conversion which i like).
For thunderfires i didnt want to waste money on getting new TFC boxes when I already had the techmarines, so i use the mantic jotunn quad guns and i actually like their aesthetics more.

Often enough when someone plays a proxy game and decides he likes the changes, you will see them working on getting the proper models/gear soon enough.

If someday someone comes to me for a game with proxies, and proxies somethin like a screamstar or waac tau list with empty bases will be the day i say no to proxies.

**PrinceRaven**

I've proxied myself, I wanted to test out Biovores but didn't have any, so my opponent let me use a unit of Warriors as Biovores. I still proxy semicircles of foam as Mycetic Spores, as they don't have a model and I don't want to go through the trouble of converting 5 Mycetic Spores when rumours say it will be getting a model next year. Ultimately, as long as it's clear what you're proxying (I wouldn't have proxied Warriors for Biovores if I ran any actual Warriors), if you're proxying a whole model the proxy is a similar shape and size to the original, and you don't overdo the number of proxies in your army, you should do fine.
Also, this is relelvant:

Spoiler:

**Araenion**

Definitely allow them. I'm very guilty of using proxies myself. For a while since the Eldar codex came out, I've been using a friend's flyer base as my WK. Wraithknight is a very expensive model, I wasn't going to buy him if it didn't suit my playstyle. It turned out that it did and I bought him recently.

I wouldn't mind guardsmen being used as Eldar Guardians, for instance, but only if my opponent doesn't use other IG guardsmen models as something else. Cos then the game loses a lot of its charm, if I have to constantly be reminded of what's what.

**Swastakowey**

**Happyjew**

I use proxies as I've been playing for a few years and due to edition changes some wargear options are no longer viable. Unfortunately I do not have the time nor money to update my army.

Perfect example, when I first started playing Nids, Termagants had to buy a weapon. So I gave them all Spinefists to keep them cheap as possible. Then the new codex comes out and they come with a Fleshborer standard and Spinefists are an upgrade (a crappy one at that). So, I now run all my Termagants as stock regardless of what is actually modeled.

**Paradigm**

On the whole, I will avoid using proxies myself at all costs, in the same way I always try to play everything painted. When it comes to my opponent, it depends on what they want. If they want to use some GL as meltas, or AC as LC, then fine so long as it's a one off, but if it's something like 'this clear base is a C'tan' (I've actually seen this done) then I'm generally against it. It does ruin the immersion somewhat.

Where I will make an exception is if I know the player would otherwise have a very limited army time after time, then I'll let them change it up for the sake of variety.

**Happyjew**

To add on to what I said earlier, to make things easier for my opponent, I run identical units. So (for example), if I have 3 Tac squads they will all have the same special weapon and same heavy weapon so there is no confusion of "Which squad has the meltagun and which one has the plasmagun?" They either all have meltas or all have plasmas.

**Haight**

Yes i allow proxies.

GW models are too damn expensive to just willy nilly go out and buy, assemble and paint something that may sound great on paper, but fail on the table.

So proxies are a good way to test out ideas without committing with your wallet.

Also, some models are fugly. If someone wants to replace a fugly model with a nice one, as long as its reasonably easy for me to tell what it is, no problem. If it's converted in such a way that it's basically impossible to mis-identify, then I won't bat an eyelash.

I'll also give a bit of leeway with "Hey this squad has two plasma guns, one is actually a melta, he's the one with the scrap of paper hanging over his head that says "Imma Meltagun". I don't mind a couple models, maybe even a handful... if it's more than a handful, let's play a smaller game so you don't have to proxy so much.

**Ugavine**

Most of my Ork proxies are hardly noticeable; Warbiker as Nob Warbiker, Big Shoota as a Loota, Slugga Boy as Shoota Boy.

And to be honest I don't pay that much attention to the weapon modelling of my opponents figures. Personally I'd rather see an awesome looking army, and it's too expensive to own every option for an army.

Besides, it up to the individual what their army looks like. I personally don't want to play 40K against cardboard counters, but generally I really don't mind that much about proxies.

**Paradigm**

Just to clarify my earlier point, I am fine with almost ANY conversion or counts-as (different model/manufacturer). Mantic IG or Anvil marines? Go for it. (I have both, actually)

My only issue is when something literally one model acting as another (eg necron warriour counts as lychguard/tac marine counts as Vanguard veteran), or if one type of model counts as 2 different things. To use the examples above, Big Shoota= Loota or warbiker= nob are fine, it's when you get into the territory of 'That DK I borrowed is a riptide' or 'That leman russ is a manticore, but that one is a hellhound' that I don't like it. And even then, I'll still play, I just would prefer to play against models that are what they are.

**wallygator**

Ugavine wrote:
Most of my Ork proxies are hardly noticeable; Warbiker as Nob Warbiker, Big Shoota as a Loota, Slugga Boy as Shoota Boy.

I do exactly the same thing with my orks, warbikers with nob wargear, all my 5th ed slugga boyz are now shoota boyz,..

Some time ago i did a proxybattle with a friend. he had around 600 pts of nids, and wants to expand so we tested some lists of 1850 pts before actually buying the units.
We did it this way and it was very clear. First line of the squad genestealers were the GW model, rest of the squad little coins. If the first models die, we removed second line "coin units" and moved the GW models back.
His Iphone was a second termi, and so on.

It was a great way to test before buy, and he had enough units to field all the squads he wanted.

**Talore**

We had this thread a few weeks ago, didn't we? You'll get lots of opinions if you check back a few pages in the forum index.

**NuggzTheNinja**

Doesn't it also depend on the proxy?

Usually I don't have a big problem with people proxying different ICs and stuff. But proxying so that you can spam a unit that otherwise is sort of limited by the fact that it's very expensive and most people don't want to spend the money...that's pretty lame.

Sorry, I don't want to play against your 5 Riptide list, when not a single one of them is actually a Riptide, any more than you want to play against my 9 Vendetta list comprised entirely of paper airplanes.

**TheCadreofFi'rios**

The reason why I posted this was because I had one game that was total bs. And before I get into detail about it this was a guy that I just met, not a friendly laissez-faire kind of deal. I always play competitively but still try to have fun with my games but this guy said two of his space marine squads had grav guns (when they completely didn't) and made his list right in front of me after asking a series of questions like: do you have vehicles? or do you have flyers? I thought afterwards: this guy totally cheated.... unquestionably. He not only proxied half his army but tailored his list at the same time. This is why I'm making it a new policy of mine: NO PROXIES!!! If I find a guy has proxies from now on I'm probably going to say something like: play someone else please. The question I find myself asking is: how do you say it politely?

**Talore**

The issue isn't proxies. The issue is that you allowed him to tailor his list to you as you spoon-fed him the details of your army.

**Happyjew**

When someone tries to build a list right in front of me, I give them as much useless information as possible:
Do you have Flyers? I have 10 models with wings.
Do you have vehicles? I have something that costs as much as a Land Raider.

It's not my fault if they misinterpret my information and bring Lance weapons and anti-air against a Tyranid list with 10 Gargoyles and a Tyrannofex.

**Mr Morden**

Pretty happy with most stuff but then seldom play tournaments.....

**da001**

Yes I use proxies.
1) GW models are expensive as hell
2) I play many factions and I like to test stuff
3) some GW models are horrendous

**The Grumpy Eldar**

Yeah I do, and I let other people do to. As long as it's not a standart thing. I usually do it to try out new things for an army before buying and build/paint it.

**Daston**

I proxy similar units as stand in's for fluff reasons.

For example my IG force is Mechanicus based and as such I don't use Ogryns models, however I do have some FW Thallax Cohort to proxy them. They are on the same base and the same size and fit in.

Dont mind people proxying stuff as long as its not stupid like this wraith guard is a wraith knight.

**Happyjew**

I have two rules when it comes to proxying:
1. It must be on the same base as the model and must be approximately the same size.
2. All models/wargear must be the same. If using DA as Guardians, then all DA must be Guardians. If using Plasma Cannons as Heavy Bolters in a Tac squad then all Plasma cannons in Tac squads must be Heavy Bolters.

**Araenion**

That's not a problem with proxies, that's a problem with the TFG attitude of the guy you played.

My opponents more often than not have a list ready. And before we start the game, we always ask each other exactly what each of our unit has. My replies are usually simple.

This unit of Windrider jetbikes has 9 S6 Bladestorm shots(here I explain what Bladestorm does, so they know to be careful with their low-armour save or high toughness units around units with that rule) and 12 TL S4 Bladestorm shots, at range 24" and 12" respectivelly.

That Wraightknight has 2 S10 shots. Even though I don't actually have arms glued on atm, cos I'm waiting to magnetise them. So everything is perfectly clear and set in stone from the get go.

Same thing if I'm proxying something. This shoe here is a Wave Serpent and it has this this and that. Same as if it was actually a Wave Serpent.

So this has absolutely nothing to do with proxying. After all, proxying didn't convince him to cheat, but rather he used it as a convenient tool to cheat with. But with the above examples, that tool can be taken from him and anyone else who tries to pull that one off on you again.

**Savageconvoy**

I think the outcome of the game and your attitude towards it would have been the exact same if the guy had the correct models or not. I mean if he did the same thing of writing a list and pulling out models for every question he asked it still would have the same problem. Then you could probably justify the hatred and say you'll never play grav-guns or C: SM again.

Now there is some wiggle room, I'd imagine. Was he actually tailoring his list specifically to you or was he unsure of the meta? If I was in a new area I'd probably ask around if mech lists or flier heavy lists were popular, same basic questioning but the goal is to understand the meta and not win a specific game.

**chromedog**

Do I allow proxies?

Within reason, yes. This is the hard part. What is reasonable?

A model that is scratchbuilt/converted and looks "close enough" to be the actual unit? Yes. A dragon model converted with armour plating and symbols used as a Chaoschicken? Yes - because the GW one is uglier than a hatful of ****holes.

A voltron toy unmodified and still in its garish 70s paint scheme? Not a chance in hell, chucklehead!

X weapon = Y weapon? Only if ALL of X are Y. If you have some X=Y and some X=X, you can play someone else.

I came into 40k when RT was the game, and you HAD to either proxy or "count X as Y" because they just DIDN'T have the models for it (or artwork, in many cases). After so many years of doing this, it becomes normal.

Even now, I'm not opposed to it - GW might come out with the official models, but some of them look like stuff out of GI Joe or pokeyermom.

**PrinceRaven**

I think you're confusing proxy and counts-as, chromedog.

**chromedog**

I don't think so.

A proxy is using something as something else. Big armoured dragon model as hellchicken.

A counts-as is using something as something else. Blue marines playing as Red marines - whether or not they have dragons or hellchickens.