Proxies. Do you use them? Do you let your opponent use them?

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**Talore**

Oaka wrote:
You both need to get over yourselves, just a little bit. I'm not saying I won't play against you because you don't have enough money to be in the hobby, I'm saying you should use the models you have rather than pretend they are something else because you don't like the rules for the models you bought. If you can field a legal army using Citadel miniatures, that is what you should do. Don't get regrets over how you built and modeled your miniatures, and expect me to be OK with it. If a new edition or new codex drops that makes a unit choice seem sub-par, then you should use it until you purchase and build the models to phase it out. You shouldn't expect an instant proxy situation.

You literally won't play with someone if they 'have any regrets' over what they made, even through codex and edition changes? Yeah nah, you're the one who needs to get over himself. God forbid someone wants to try something out before dropping a ton of time or money on something. It's a game, you don't need to be so anti-social about it.

**Happyjew**

Talore wrote:
You literally won't play with someone if they 'have any regrets' over what they made, even through codex and edition changes? Yeah nah, you're the one who needs to get over himself. God forbid someone wants to try something out before dropping a ton of time or money on something.

What money? I'm broke. There is a reason why I've not bought new models in the last couple of years.

**Makumba**

God forbid someone wants to try something out before dropping a ton of time or money on something. I

why isn't he using vassal to test it then . better player and doesn't waste time for people who want an actual game .

**Happyjew**

Makumba wrote:
God forbid someone wants to try something out before dropping a ton of time or money on something. I

why isn't he using vassal to test it then . better player and doesn't waste time for people who want an actual game .

Because I'd rather play an actual game of warhammer rather than a top-down computer simulation which in and of itself can cause all sorts of problems.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to point out that only the older codexes (specifically Orks) has anything close to a WYSIWYG rule.

**Talore**

Makumba wrote:
God forbid someone wants to try something out before dropping a ton of time or money on something. I

why isn't he using vassal to test it then . better player and doesn't waste time for people who want an actual game .

Requiring 100% Citadel Miniatures WYSIWYG isn't 'an actual game,' that's just being a snob. If I'm wasting your time because I want to hang out and play a tabletop game with you but I have something that clashes with your strict taste, you've got a problem.

**Uarg'Gaon'n**

Talore wrote:
Makumba wrote:
God forbid someone wants to try something out before dropping a ton of time or money on something. I

why isn't he using vassal to test it then . better player and doesn't waste time for people who want an actual game .
Requiring 100% Citadel Miniatures WYSIWYG isn't 'an actual game,' that's just being a snob. If I'm wasting your time because I want to hang out and play a tabletop game with you but I have something that clashes with your strict taste, you've got a problem.

I agree entirely. If you've got a list ahead of time, I'm all for it. If you tailor it right in front of me, not so cool. If you wanna be a snob about playing with me because I want to proxy out the sword on my daemon prince because I can't find a black mace model and/or don't have the time to build one due to my lack of time caused by my Active Duty military job, you can go screw yourself, I'd rather play with someone else.

**Tigramans**

As long as more than half of your army WON'T consist of proxied beer cans and cardboard contraptions, we're fine.

**PrinceRaven**

Tigramans wrote:
As long as more than half of your army WON'T consist of... cardboard contraptions, we're fine.

Unless they're playing Orks, right?

**Wardragoon**

Oaka wrote:
Davor wrote:

They will say that you should not be in the hobby then, because you can't afford it then.

I am flabbergasted how alot of people tell us how the game should be played.

Happyjew wrote:

Some people started this hobby when they had money. Now they are working a lower paying job and/or have more financial obligations. Who is to say they are not allowed to play?

If someone doesn't want to play against me because I'm using proxies, I don't care. I know of plenty other people who will play regardless. Sometimes people just want to play a game with little plastic (or metal/finecast) soldiers.

You both need to get over yourselves, just a little bit. I'm not saying I won't play against you because you don't have enough money to be in the hobby, I'm saying you should use the models you have rather than pretend they are something else because you don't like the rules for the models you bought. If you can field a legal army using Citadel miniatures, that is what you should do. Don't get regrets over how you built and modeled your miniatures, and expect me to be OK with it. If a new edition or new codex drops that makes a unit choice seem sub-par, then you should use it until you purchase and build the models to phase it out. You shouldn't expect an instant proxy situation.

Well then, I reckon you wont have to worry about playing my guard, I plan on grabbing mantic minis for the regular joes, while a little bit more static than standard GW models I prefer the look and price for them. Also on the price thing, I make 10$ an hour, now tell me how in the hell I am supposed to drop 500-600$ in order to buy an army I may not like, or heck even just trying a new unit e.g. Deathwing Knights underperform after proxy testing them, and I won't waste 60$ on them)

**Tigramans**

PrinceRaven wrote:

Unless they're playing Orks, right?

Well, the Orks are the exception, but even Ork players must have standards

**OminusMarine**

I never play with proxies. Its WYSIWYG for me.
I don't mind if people use them either, as long as they're either clearly marked, or they notify me what they do before we start the game.
I don't care like them because I've dealt with countless people that have proxied models, and during the game will change there weapon loadouts or their rules.
Annoying.

**Happyjew**

As I said proxies don't bother me that much because I will not play someone who does not have their codex, and does not have their army list written down. What irritates me is when someone says "This model has a power axe." and then points to an identical model and says "This model has power sword.".
As far as I'm concerned, if I'm running proxies, my units are identical. Of course I try to keep a common element so each unit is easily distinguishable for example, one squad will have all Fleshborers, one squad will have all Spinefists, one will have Devourers. According to my list, they all have Fleshborers.

**Oaka**

The posts in this thread lead me to believe that we have differing opinions on what a 'proxy', 'conversion', or 'counts-as' actually is.

**Ashiraya**

I tend to avoid proxies, but I mostly play in a single group of 7 or so people where we have rather good understandings. Counts-as is fine IMO, we mostly use it in the way "Here is my custom Captain, Captain Marius. He is treated as Captain Sicarius in all respects." and leave it at that.

Proxies? BURN THE WITCH! No but really... It would depend on situation. But as I quite enjoy immersion, I am perhaps a little bit harsh. But I am fine with unpainted models, on the other hand... Gah! It is complex! I judge it on a case per case basis, in all honesty.

**Happyjew**

Oaka wrote:
The posts in this thread lead me to believe that we have differing opinions on what a 'proxy', 'conversion', or 'counts-as' actually is.

Proxy and count-as tends to get swapped willy-nilly. Conversions are something else completely (such as my Parasite of Mortrex who is composed of Tyranid and Daemon pieces).

**Lord Gatlas**

I don't mind proxies as long as the proxy is in fact a model. No, you can't make that soda bottle a carnifex.