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Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Peregrine wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Not true, the allowance to move through is allowance to end the move at that location.


Please cite the rule where it says this. You are granted permission to trace a model's movement path through certain obstacles, but you are not ever given permission to point at a spot and declare that the model is ending its move there without actually placing the model in that location.

In the rules that allow you to freely move through a wall as if it were not there with a DT test.

You need to find a restriction on a model not being able to stop in a place it is legally allowed to go. Not the other way around...

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 DeathReaper wrote:
You need to find a restriction on a model not being able to stop in a place it is legally allowed to go. Not the other way around...


No, you have this completely backwards again. You need permission to treat a model as being somewhere other than the exact spot that it is in on the table. The fact that the laws of physics do not allow you to place a model in a location that you would like to place it in, even one where the rules of the game would have no objection, does not change this fact. If you don't place a model in a spot then it hasn't moved there.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 insaniak wrote:
 Dozer Blades wrote:
@ insaniak - you make things way too difficult for nothing gained. Your PoV is peculiar.

Odd, I don't recall having anything to do with the writing of the 6th edition rules...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DJGietzen wrote:
But through mean to go in one side and out the other.

No it doesn't. If you're swimming in a bowl of treacle, you're moving through treacle. 'Through' simply means 'passing within'... It doesn't have to mean you come out the other side at all.

Otherwise the 'Move Through Cover'rule would suddenly be a whole lot less useful...


Ok, I'll give you that. GW uses through and within interchangeably (and incorrectly).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/19 10:15:28


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Peregrine wrote:
If you don't place a model in a spot then it hasn't moved there.

Why not?

WMS says that you leave the model somewhere else. Not that you place it an then move it somewhere else.

 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 insaniak wrote:
WMS says that you leave the model somewhere else. Not that you place it an then move it somewhere else.


The WMS rule:

Sometimes you may find that a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance it in place, it is likely to fall as soon as somebody nudges the table, leaving your beautifully painted miniature damaged or even broken. In cases like this, we find it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its 'actual' location. If, later on, your opponent is considering shooting at the model, you will have to hold it back in the proper place so he can check line of sight.

Highlighted parts in order:

1) WMS describes the permitted situation as when it is hard to place a model. Hard, not impossible. Balancing a model on top of an uneven bit of rubble at the top of a tall ruin is hard. Placing a model inside another object is impossible.

2) WMS describes the permitted situation as balancing a model, not being unable to place it at all (for example, because you are trying to make two pieces of plastic occupy the same space).

3) WMS is permitted in cases like the ones previously described. Now you have the burden of proof to establish that a case where the laws of physics do not permit you to place a model where you want is sufficiently similar to one where you could place the model if you try hard enough, but would risk dropping it.

4) WMS allows you to place the model in a safer position, not in a more convenient position. Again, reinforcing the fact that WMS is only allowed when the issue is protecting a model.

5) WMS requires you to hold the model in place to check LOS, something that would be impossible if the model must be placed inside another object. And no, the argument that this happens later so it's irrelevant doesn't work. Not only does it reinforce the argument that WMS is only about model safety, not extra movement options, as soon as I declare that I want to check LOS to your physics-defying model you are cheating.


Conclusion: WMS only applies when you are able to place a model in a desired location but are concerned about knocking it off that spot. You are NOT permitted to use WMS to point at an arbitrary spot inside of a hill and declare that your model is standing there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/19 08:56:10


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





United States

BRB p.74. Wrecked Vehicles
"Wrecked vehicles are left on the table and effectively become a piece of terrain (conferring a 5+ cover save), counting as both difficult and dangerous terrain. Players must clearly mark that a vehicle has been Wrecked in a way they consider suitable."

-they- consider suitable guys.. -they-. The Rhino you are using as a 'counts as' wreck should not provide LOS blocking like an unscratched model. Nobody is agreeing to a Rhino you can stand inside of and gain LOS blocks from everything. The mutual agreement clause is right in the rules.

I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Rismonite wrote:
BRB p.74. Wrecked Vehicles
"Wrecked vehicles are left on the table and effectively become a piece of terrain (conferring a 5+ cover save), counting as both difficult and dangerous terrain. Players must clearly mark that a vehicle has been Wrecked in a way they consider suitable."

-they- consider suitable guys.. -they-. The Rhino you are using as a 'counts as' wreck should not provide LOS blocking like an unscratched model. Nobody is agreeing to a Rhino you can stand inside of and gain LOS blocks from everything. The mutual agreement clause is right in the rules.


You should not be removing the vehicle model from the table as wrecked vehicles are left on the table. They will block LoS (not LOS as 'of' does not get capitalized) just like they did before. You are only given permission to mark the vehicle as a wreck in a mutually agreeable way. Marking it and replacing it are different things.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





United States

So I'm gonna move my model inside here and gain los on all sides ok? "I do not agree to that"

I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works. 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Raw doesn't seem to matter in this one. Both rules say the players must mutually agree to placement.

Just say no and move on.

   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Peregrine wrote:

The WMS rule:

Sometimes you may find that a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance it in place, it is likely to fall as soon as somebody nudges the table, leaving your beautifully painted miniature damaged or even broken. In cases like this, we find it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its 'actual' location. If, later on, your opponent is considering shooting at the model, you will have to hold it back in the proper place so he can check line of sight.

Nothing in that rule says that the model physically had to be placed in the position before you put it somewhere else. This is an assumption that you have made.

 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





United States

 insaniak wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:

The WMS rule:

Sometimes you may find that a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where you want. If you delicately balance it in place, it is likely to fall as soon as somebody nudges the table, leaving your beautifully painted miniature damaged or even broken. In cases like this, we find it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its 'actual' location. If, later on, your opponent is considering shooting at the model, you will have to hold it back in the proper place so he can check line of sight.

Nothing in that rule says that the model physically had to be placed in the position before you put it somewhere else. This is an assumption that you have made.


I specifically want to see you delicately hold your model inside the rhino while I check for LOS.

EDIT I don't mean it rude, just a lulz point I wanted to make about the ridiculous in this. Honestly if I dont agree that you can be wholey inside the dangerous terrain I don't see how we agree the model can be there.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/19 12:26:48


I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works. 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Rismonite wrote:
I specifically want to see you delicately hold your model inside the rhino while I check for LOS.

We already covered that.


Just to be clear here, once again, I am not arguing that anyone should actually play with models being allowed to hide inside wrecks. Just pointing out that the rules covering the situation are a little messy.


Not allowing the model to finish its movement there is one potential house rule to get around the problem. As I suggested earlier in the thread, just assuming that the model inside is visible but in cover would be another.

 
   
Made in us
Reverent Tech-Adept





Read the thread, and it seems like the ability to "move through" is granted but not the ability to 'stop inside of.' So, doesn't ending movement in a wall/hill/wreck require using WMS which the requires consent, making this whole thing kind of moot at this point?

Think first. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 insaniak wrote:
 Rismonite wrote:
I specifically want to see you delicately hold your model inside the rhino while I check for LOS.

We already covered that.


Just to be clear here, once again, I am not arguing that anyone should actually play with models being allowed to hide inside wrecks. Just pointing out that the rules covering the situation are a little messy.


Not allowing the model to finish its movement there is one potential house rule to get around the problem. As I suggested earlier in the thread, just assuming that the model inside is visible but in cover would be another.


But you are arguing for it. The rules are only messy if you try to stretch them in a direction. WMS describes the reasoning for it, DT explains what examples you can move through solid items. Neither have an allowance for blanket burrowing through terrain, which you are advocating.
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




San Diego Ca

You should have used the True LoS rules against him (for being a DB with such a cheesy move) and told him the ONLY way he can hide the model "inside" the wrecked tank is to actually place the model INSIDE the tank. Since the model was on top of the tank, you may draw LoS to the model and shoot it dead (granting the appropriate cover save of course).

Life isn't fair. But wouldn't it be worse if Life were fair, and all of the really terrible things that happen to us were because we deserved them?
M. Cole.
 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Fragile wrote:

But you are arguing for it. The rules are only messy if you try to stretch them in a direction. WMS describes the reasoning for it, DT explains what examples you can move through solid items. Neither have an allowance for blanket burrowing through terrain, which you are advocating.

And, again, I explained why.

The rules give examples of things that can be moved through... But examples are not exhaustive, they are just examples. So it's left up to players to determine just what can be moved through, which is sloppy design.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rapture wrote:
Read the thread, and it seems like the ability to "move through" is granted but not the ability to 'stop inside of.'

'move through' does not automatically mean 'move completely through from one side to the other, in one single movement'.

Otherwise, again, Move Through Cover will only give a benefit if a model starts and finishes their movement outside the terrain as well...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/19 19:51:25


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






The idea that you can end a move in a place where the model cannot physically exist is a complete fabrication and no way supported by the rules. You could just as well move directly upwards and use WMS to claim that the models actual position is six inches above the tabletop.

   
Made in us
Reverent Tech-Adept





 insaniak wrote:

'move through' does not automatically mean 'move completely through from one side to the other, in one single movement'.

Otherwise, again, Move Through Cover will only give a benefit if a model starts and finishes their movement outside the terrain as well...

I don't understand - the definition of 'through' seems to mean exactly that. 'Through' means 'through.' Nothing more and nothing less. Anything else taken from the word of the rule would have to be implied and if we are resorting to what is implied, then this whole conversation is worthless as the avoidance of abuse like this is always implied in GW's rules. For example, if a TSA representative told you to walk 'through' a metal detector at the airport, that is an express statement that is meant to be taken literally, meaning that you cannot stop in the middle of the device, but must walk 'through' it to the opposite side.

I also don't understand what you mean about MTC. The trigger for that rules is "when rolling to move through difficult terrain," which you can do regardless of where you start or end you move provided that at any point the unit is required to roll for difficult terrain.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/19 20:12:12


Think first. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Crimson wrote:
The idea that you can end a move in a place where the model cannot physically exist is a complete fabrication and no way supported by the rules.

As noted my Insaniak, your statement is not true.

You could just as well move directly upwards and use WMS to claim that the models actual position is six inches above the tabletop.

This is "no way supported by the rules." though.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 DeathReaper wrote:

You could just as well move directly upwards and use WMS to claim that the models actual position is six inches above the tabletop.

This is "no way supported by the rules." though.

I couldn't find a rule that says in which direction moves may be made. This is actually more valid use of WMS, as then you could at least hold the model in the air for LoS purposes as instructed.
(Or then we could just accept that rules are written with the assumption that laws of physics must be followed when placing the models.)

   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Rapture wrote:

I don't understand - the definition of 'through' seems to mean exactly that. 'Through' means 'through.' Nothing more and nothing less. Anything else taken from the word of the rule would have to be implied and if we are resorting to what is implied, then this whole conversation is worthless as the avoidance of abuse like this is always implied in GW's rules. For example, if a TSA representative told you to walk 'through' a metal detector at the airport, that is an express statement that is meant to be taken literally, meaning that you cannot stop in the middle of the device, but must walk 'through' it to the opposite side.

That's only one usage of the word, though. Moving 'within' is also moving 'through'. See my treacle example from earlier.

There is also, a I said, no time limit. In your metal detector example, yes, you would be expected to move through without stopping. But that's because people don't generally walk 6 inches and then stop and wait for everyone else to have a go before moving further.

If you move a model into a terrain piece this turn, and then move it out the other side of the retain piece next turn, the model moved through the terrain piece. It just didn't do it in one hit.




I also don't understand what you mean about MTC. The trigger for that rules is "when rolling to move through difficult terrain," which you can do regardless of where you start or end you move provided that at any point the unit is required to roll for difficult terrain.

If you interpret 'through' as meaning 'completely through from one side to the other in a single movement phase as people are doing here with the difficult terrain rules, then MTC will only give a model a bonus movement die if the model moves completely through the terrain from one side to another in a single movement phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/19 20:58:40


 
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




The wreck is difficult and dangerous terrain period. It's not something someone can embark within.

If there were holes in the doors, like open doors (which most Rhinos do not have modeled as such) then the model could move through the door, in which case it could be shot at and assaulted assuming someone from the offensive unit could see inside the Rhino.

If the doors were closed then the model could not open them, as it's just plain DnD terrain, not something to be opened and embarked within, and the model would have to move onto or over the Rhino.

Models do not get to move pieces of terrain, like opening a door either. If it's a wreck, that damn door wouldn't work!

   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Nobody is saying that the rhino can be embarked into. But as difficult terrain, a model can technically move through it.

Trees and rocks don't have functional doors either, but can be moved through because of the same rule.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Eye of Terror

You're attempting to say that moves through is the same as move into, which is false.

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Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You're attempting to say that moves through is the same as move into, which is false.

So a model with MTC in open terrain, moving into a forest base, rolls how many dice?

 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




As above. Stating "moves through" can only mean "moves completely through" is adding in a qualifier that does not exist - the clue is, you have to add additional words to get to the phrase you are claiming is written.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Crimson wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

You could just as well move directly upwards and use WMS to claim that the models actual position is six inches above the tabletop.

This is "no way supported by the rules." though.

I couldn't find a rule that says in which direction moves may be made. This is actually more valid use of WMS, as then you could at least hold the model in the air for LoS purposes as instructed.
(Or then we could just accept that rules are written with the assumption that laws of physics must be followed when placing the models.)

Well the only allowance is lateral movement, except in ruins that specify you can move vertically...

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






nosferatu1001 wrote:
As above. Stating "moves through" can only mean "moves completely through" is adding in a qualifier that does not exist - the clue is, you have to add additional words to get to the phrase you are claiming is written.


completely through and through are the same thing, the completely is redundant. The definition of through is clear. You go in one side and come out the other.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/through?q=through
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/british/through_1?q=through
http://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=through&submit.x=48&submit.y=15
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/through?s=t

Trouble is, as it has been pointed out in this thread, Games Workshop has used "through" where they should have used "within" on more then one occasion. So the definition of "through"has no weight on the discussion.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

The second adverb bullet in your first link is the definition of 'through' that GW are using here. It's not incorrect at all.

It's also the second definition in your third link. So both UK and US usage allows that definition.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/19 23:24:23


 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

through


/θruː/

preposition & adverb

preposition: through; adverb: through

1. moving in one side and out of the other side of (an opening, channel, or location).

"stepping boldly through the doorway"

synonyms:

into and out of, to the other/far side of, from one side of … to the other, from end to end of, between, past, by, down, along, across, by way of, via; More

throughout, around in, all over

"it takes about twenty-five minutes to get through the tunnel"

from one side to the other, from one end to another, from end to end, from side to side, from top to bottom, in and out the other end/side

"cosmic rays strike against atoms in the atmosphere as they pass through"


so as to make a hole or opening in (a physical object).


"the lorry smashed through a brick wall"



moving around or from one side to the other within (a crowd or group).


"making my way through the guests"

so as to be perceived from the other side of (an intervening obstacle).

the sun was streaming in through the window"

expressing the position or location of something beyond or at the far end of (an opening or an obstacle).

"the approach to the church is through a gate"

expressing the extent of turning from one orientation to another.


"each joint can move through an angle within fixed limits"





This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/19 23:39:40


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