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I don't know about you guys, but looking at the new Chapter Traits I can't help but feel that the Black Templars are kind of the odd-man out in terms of usefulness and potency. The vast majority of the other Chapter Traits are extremely useful, if not outright potent, but Black Templars seem to be left in the dust.

So I came up with the following to (hopefully) kind of make up for that. Note that they still have access to the Emperor's Champion and Crusader Squads.

Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds: Black Templars are Fearless when engaged in close combat. In addition, when engaged in a challenge, Black Templars characters re-roll all failed To Hit rolls and have the Rending special rule.

Suffer Not the Unclean to Live: Black Templars models have the Adamantium Will, Crusader and Furious Charge special rules.


I didn't want to go with a 6+ invulnerable save as that makes them feel too similar to Iron Hands with their Feel No Pain (6+). As for the argument of "well they also get two unique units" and while that is true, they get the Emperor's Champion at the expense of Librarians (ouch, getting rid of a very versatile, customization unit for a static unit with a singular purpose) and the Crusader Squads, while interesting, are essentially just watered-down, larger Assault Squad. Though I think their problem can easily be solved by letting the Special Weapon dude also swap out those options for a power weapon or fist. An option to make the Emperor's Champion better to would be to simply allow him to be taken and not take up a Force Org slot.

So anyways, thoughts, comments, suggestions? Please keep everything civil and constructive and no road-blocking please.

Fearless in CC seems a bit over the top, I'd say make them stubborn instead.

Then give them Hatred in a challenge.

Not sure about the last three.

ATSKNF trumps Fearless. If you lose and would get swept you stay and fight with no penalty, if you break you automatically regroup 3" then act as normal, giving you a 9" movement, followed by a phase of shooting and a 2D6" charge range to get back in.

Honestly though, if it's pounding your face in, chances are you might want to be shooting it, not punching it back. Plus the shooting phase might help you soften your target some more before you go and try punching it again.

Frankly I think where people need to start before they "fix" the Templars is just actually playing them. Play the hell out of them, and then once you've had a few months of consistent, regular play, look at what really isn't working and then address that. Until then people are just making rash judgment calls on what they think is wrong with the army, not what they know is wrong with the army. You want to "fix" something in this game then you need to play test the hell out of it in as many different combinations and against as many armies as possible. Until then you're just making assumptions that might just make it worse.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Fearless in CC seems a bit over the top, I'd say make them stubborn instead.

Then give them Hatred in a challenge.

I'm going to go ahead and question if you've even read Codex: Space Marines or Codex: Black Templars, because:

1. BT have been Fearless in CC for 8 years. How is it "over the top"?

2. The current Accept Any Challenges is "rerolls to-hit in challenges and Rending". Why do you want to water it down to Hatred? The point of the thread is to improve the Chapter Tactics, not make it worse.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
ATSKNF trumps Fearless. If you lose and would get swept you stay and fight with no penalty, if you break you automatically regroup 3" then act as normal, giving you a 9" movement, followed by a phase of shooting and a 2D6" charge range to get back in.

Honestly though, if it's pounding your face in, chances are you might want to be shooting it, not punching it back. Plus the shooting phase might help you soften your target some more before you go and try punching it again.

Frankly I think where people need to start before they "fix" the Templars is just actually playing them. Play the hell out of them, and then once you've had a few months of consistent, regular play, look at what really isn't working and then address that. Until then people are just making rash judgment calls on what they think is wrong with the army, not what they know is wrong with the army. You want to "fix" something in this game then you need to play test the hell out of it in as many different combinations and against as many armies as possible. Until then you're just making assumptions that might just make it worse.

I have been playing them and have been getting feedback from others who play not only them but Marines as well. Overall they just aren't up to the caliber of the rest of the Chapter Traits. I can explain why as well.

Accept Any Challenge, No Matter the Odds: This rule doesn't need much, if any, more help, it works pretty good as-is. While the usefulness of Rending highly depends on what character you are facing off against and what weapons your character is equipped with, the ability to re-roll all failed To Hit rolls in close combat is very good.

Crusaders: This is where one of the problems come from. Unless you're playing against a psyker heavy army like Grey Knights, Space Wolves, or Chaos Daemons you're not going to see much use out of Adamantium Will. The rule is sadly very limited in its usefulness as most armies only bring with them a single psyker.

As for Crusader it is the more useful of the two rules, though a unit which runs cannot shoot or assault so actually using this half of the special rule can leave your unit in a state where they are unable to charge or dish out any damage with shooting (using terrain will help them survive, but still won't help you kill anything).

Simply put, when you compare these benefits to most of the other Chapter Traits they come up very short. Virtually every other set of Chapter Traits are useful in virtually every match, however many of the Black Templars traits are situational at best and very limited in usefulness at worst.

Emperor's Champion: An exceptionally great challenge character. Not only is he one of the few 6th Edition units who has an AP 2 Melee weapon that isn't Unwieldy, but his WS 6 and getting Instant Death in challenges on a 6+ To Wound is pretty mean as well. One of the only perks to playing Black Templars at the moment, but I wish he could at least take a bike or a jump pack as options (though that has nothing to do with the unit's usefulness or balance).

Crusader Squads: Basically an assaulty Tactical Squad that can take 10 point meat shields and can swap out their Heavy Weapon with a power weapon or power fist. This unit would work a lot better if the Black Templars Chapter Traits were simply better, but for right now its simply just a modified Tactical Squad with meat shields. While there's no reason to not take them over Tactical Squads (as they do the same thing, but Crusader Squads also get the option of swapping out their Heavy Weapon with a power fist or power sword and the ability to take 10 points meat shields). They only really have to compete with Scout Squads for Troops choices, who are cheaper and have very good ranged capabilities thanks to their sniper rifles.



So really the only problems lay in the Chapter Traits themselves, but as I said earlier this is probably a very easy fix.

Another idea would be to bring back Righteous Zeal, but in a far less confusing/complex form.

Righteous Zeal: Black Templars models have the Adamantium Will and Crusader special rules. Place a counter next to each Black Templars Infantry unit that are not in combat but sustained a casualty during the enemy's turn and did not fall back. A Black Templars unit with one of these counters on them may Run and still perform ranged attacks in the Shooting phase and may still charge in the Assault phase. Remove these counters at the end of your turn.

BT already have the best troops choice in the codex, why do they need any more advantages?

Here, let me 'fix' Black Templars for you:

Black Templars treat Adepta Sororitas armies as Battle Brothers in an allied force.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Fearless in CC seems a bit over the top, I'd say make them stubborn instead.

Then give them Hatred in a challenge.

Not sure about the last three.

The thing is, with ATSKNF, Fearless actually becomes something of a hindrance because it means once you're stuck in, you're not going to get out and shoot them up like most marines want to.

My friend Whos played BT Religiously most of the time we've played does quite well with them and there cahpter Tactics are fine and are fluffly and work very well, Crusader is amazing, If your running fluffly Crusader sqauds with bolt pistol chain sword they arent gonna be able to assault anything first turn and used correctly a good run distance can get you into cover and ready for the charge next turn, saying that there sepcial rule for running is useless is saying Running is useless in general, (which it isnt).
Rending and reroll failed hits in Challenges makes them monsters in close combat and hero Killers. The fact that they can take power fists on models that aren't characters means they can hide in the back and dish out a crap load of damage at the end of a fight (much like Orks used to be able to do). and lastly adamantium will even though not "useful" against armies with not alot of pysker powers, Give them that much extra capability of stopping a psychic power that could wreck them.

I feel it is too soon to try to "fix" anything until you get a few games in.

Just looking at words on paper is not the same as seeing it all work out on the tabletop.

I find trying to make a new house rule for your army is a somewhat useless mental exercise since you need others to accept it.

The Crusader squads add some interesting options the other marines do not get and some of the traits have their use and address some of the "fluff" and not being able to use a character with a psychic hood.

Be patient...

 Guitarquero wrote:
Crusader is amazing

It adds around 0.98" to a run move on average. It's a fething joke.

I still think that Templars are playable, but the Chapter Tactics don't add any sort of significant buff to melee the way IF or UM Chapter Tactics buff shooting, and it gets even worse when you look at our old Chapter Tactics equivalents.

While I do agree they should be slightly better, as it is now they are pretty damn good in CC. Re-rolls to-hit and rending in challenges is amazing, especially for an Emperor's Champion, Company/Honor guard champion, or Sword Brothers. Honestly, the only problem is that they don't have the same scope of rules as the others do; they're rules are very specific to foot soldiers and CC.

Sword Brother can have up to four attacks on the charge; but wait, what's this? He can have a lightning claw? With Shred? In a Challenge? With rending in challenges? God forbid he takes two and actually has the four attacks on the charge. You could always save the points and give him the chainsword and hope he rends a bunch, but that's not nearly as fun as Shred+Rending.

It also, surprisingly, makes assault centurions slightly less fail-tastic because they can now run a decent distance. Of course, they'll get shot to dust anyway, but hey.

Oh, plus the whole "Land Raider Crusader as Dedicated Transport for Crusader squads" thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Guitarquero wrote:
Crusader is amazing

It adds around 0.98" to a run move on average. It's a fething joke.

I still think that Templars are playable, but the Chapter Tactics don't add any sort of significant buff to melee the way IF or UM Chapter Tactics buff shooting, and it gets even worse when you look at our old Chapter Tactics equivalents.

I'm not sure if it's THAT big of a joke, I mean, I wasn't laughing too hard... but maybe that's just me. To be honest, Crusader should have added something like a flat +X" to run or something. The fact that it doesn't affect charging at all is another concern.

You'd think the dudes who specialize in CC would be better at getting there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, bear in mind that Helbrecht gives every model with Chapter Tactics (Black Templars) hatred and fleet once per game. If you set your army up for one big assault, you could potentially have an entire army with fleet assaulting at once.

 McNinja wrote:

Sword Brother can have up to four attacks on the charge; but wait, what's this? He can have a lightning claw? With Shred? In a Challenge? With rending in challenges? God forbid he takes two and actually has the four attacks on the charge. You could always save the points and give him the chainsword and hope he rends a bunch, but that's not nearly as fun as Shred+Rending.

Which requires the enemy to play along with your challenge or that there's something worthwhile to challenge in the first place.

 McNinja wrote:

You'd think the dudes who specialize in CC would be better at getting there.

And that's my main beef. With the loss of Righteous Zeal we're slower into Close Combat in an edition that favours shooting. With the loss of Rage we don't hit as hard when we get there, and with the loss of Chaplains that aren't crap we have to rely on a shoddy Chaplain or Helbrecht's Waaagh! to make our units any better than anyone else in Close Combat.

Just for example, a Salamander Vanguard Veteran is exactly the same as a Black Templars Vanguard Veteran. If the Black Templars are supposed to be a melee army, why are the rules we get to be better in melee only work if we win in the first place or in Challenges?

Because you get Crusader Squads.

I cannot stress this enough. Crusader squads. They are awesome in assault compared to either tactical marines or scouts. They let you build your entire army around assault instead of having to mix assault and shooting.

Crusader squads make you an assault specialised army.

And they're weak in melee. Does anyone fawn over how awesome Assault Marines are at CC? Again, we have NO special rules outside of Challenges or already winning CC that helps us be better at CC. Blood Angels get Assault Marine troops AND access to stuff like FNP and Furoius Charge (yes, I know they're in a tough spot right now, just using it as an example), Space Wolves get Grey Hunters and their eleventyfive options. Templars get Assault Marines on foot with an extra Power Weapon. That's it.

But nobody uses BA assault marines with jump packs anyway, because free rhinos are still better.

Face it, BT get the same bonusses as any other assault-based marine chapter: assault marines as troops.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
But nobody uses BA assault marines with jump packs anyway, because free rhinos are still better.

Face it, BT get the same bonusses as any other assault-based marine chapter: assault marines as troops.

I just demonstrated that that isn't true and you just ignored it. What's the point?