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I suggest you guys read about Kickstarter and what they (Kickstarter) guarantee:

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics?ref=faq_nav#Acco

Pretty relevant is this part:

If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps could include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers.

If you think you can get your money back from Kickstarter, you are very mistaken (they are VERY well protected by their terms), If you think any real lawyer is going to take your case to sue Defiance over a couple hundred bucks of pledge (or less) you are mistaken. I suspect even your credit card companies won't be of much use after the charge is 90 days old. Defiance has already proven they could care less about their reputation, so if you think shaming them will have an effect, again you are mistaken.

Jake

I'm not a lawyer but isn't there a kind of lawsuit where a group of people can sue a company as a whole? I get emails for ones against Walmart and Radioshack occasionally but I can't remember what its called. Class action maybe?

Whatever it is, couldn't the backers file one as a whole against Defiance if things go tits up?

Yep, a class action suit. Without millions on the line (which translates to 100s of thousands for the law firm) it isn't gonna happen.

It is like this. Defiance got under 50k. Kicktarter and Amazon grab almost 10% of that up front. Defiance will be able to show they spent a large portion of their take in a legitimate effort to fulfill their responsibilities to backers. Assuming you get a lawyer to take the class action suit (which will be a rough one due to the size of the action and the fact that backers are residents of multiple states and in fact multiple countries) you then would watch Defiance file bankruptcy, and be able to show the bankruptcy judge work orders/contracts/debt for way more than they took in from the Kickstarter. A company (like Proxie) would have a better chance of collecting damages from any assets Defiance does hold than the individual backers of the Kickstarter would.

But the odds of a law firm stepping up for a class action suit for the just over 40k (KS pledges minus the 10%) are not very high. Typically they will want 10%+ of awarded damages and filing the suit is likely going to make a 4k paycheck not very attractive.

I hear what you are all saying, but this is not the perfect world some of you seem to assume it is.

I mean seriously, the Swap Shop Mod thinks KS would have to kick out the funds? You think Dakka kicks out the funds if a swap shop trade goes bad? Nope, nor should they. KS's protections are going to be leaps and bounds above Dakka's.

There's a thread in the OT section where folks got their money back by filing with their credit card company over a year later on a project that didn't deliver. It's well documented... *shrug*

Credit card companies are bigger than KS

They are. But after 90 days they are not likely to be very helpful. If Defiance pushes it past 180 days (easy to do with a kickstarter) it is near impossible to get your money back from your CC company. Not saying it never happens, but it is damned rare. The odds of every backer of this going through the hassle (assume defiance completely fails to deliver) is pretty slim. The small handful that raise enough hell with their CC company may get their pledges refunded. May.

You can not get blood from a turnip. Sue all you want- if there is no money to get what is the point? Kick starter is based on trust alone. 600+ people trusted a company with a bad reputation on delivery to finally get it right. However, it is highly unlikely IMHO for this to go off with out some sort of problem. Already they have lost the supplier of the hard plastic mech. (me)

I am going to watch things because it is possible for the new crew to pull it off. If they decide to make a supreme effort. They might even pay me something someday, who knows? It is going to be a major success for the new crew if it works.

I am thinking it will go the other way and lost a lot of money to make certain my tiny little company would not become collateral damage.

 CptJake wrote:
If you think any real lawyer is going to take your case to sue Defiance over a couple hundred bucks of pledge (or less) you are mistaken.

If only there were a court system that catered to small claims such as these; easily accessible to the public, which don't require a lawyer and only need some forms to be filled out.

Your advice is wrong. While I agree Kickstarter themselves are likely immune; the creator most certainly is not; there are many avenues to pursue (but yes, no blood from a turnip).

kenofyork wrote:
You can not get blood from a turnip. Sue all you want- if there is no money to get what is the point?

This is the real issue facing backers of kickstarters. Most of these (though by no means all) of these are being done by companies who likely have very little working capital on hand. The whole point of kickstarters is after all, to raise capital. So they take the money, sink it into paying artists, producing product, paying staff, etc. You can sue the entity (that is probably incorporated, protecting those involved) all you want, but there likely isn't going to be more than a fraction of the $ to payout when it's all over.

Sum up, it's not that you can't sue, it's that the cost, effort and outcomes aren't worth it.

 Ouze wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
If you think any real lawyer is going to take your case to sue Defiance over a couple hundred bucks of pledge (or less) you are mistaken.

If only there were a court system that catered to small claims such as these; easily accessible to the public, which don't require a lawyer and only need some forms to be filled out.

Your advice is wrong. While I agree Kickstarter themselves are likely immune; the creator most certainly is not; there are many avenues to pursue (but yes, no blood from a turnip).

What advice did I give? I stated there is no feasible way to get back your pledge in most cases. Folks can try all they want. You think a guy in Japan or the UK can bring suit in his version of a small claims court? Even stateside, small claims courts have very limited jurisdiction and the filing fees will likely be close to if not more than your pledge value. Add in time away from work to do the filings and hearing and it just is very unlikely you will be compensated enough to make it worth the effort. Going through your credit card company is probably the best bet, but I have a very good customer service company (we bank with USAA) and have been told getting money back from charges over 6 months old just isn't gonna happen. I'm sure there are exceptions, but again those are gonna take time and a level of documentation that the typical backer isn't going to go through for less than a couple hundred bucks.

I also pointed out that Defiance is sure to be able to show they have legitimately spent the collected pledge money in pursuit of fulfilling the pledges. As a result, if they fail, there will be little even a good lawyer is going to do and the chances of being compensated are poor.


None of that is advice, it is a look at how the system works.

It's just that you were speaking in absolutes. Now you're adding caveats (ALL backers, or overseas ones, etc). I just think it's important to dispel the myth that a backer cannot get compensated. A determined backer most certainly can- whether they think it is worth the effort is another matter entirely.

I think we've covered all aspects of this tangent... any chance we could drop it and get back to the OP?

In the end, both sides are right. You can get refunded in quite a few ways, which take varying amounts of effort. But, most backers won't bother. So, agree to... agree? and get back on topic- Defiance Games not paying Proxie Models (or Rustforge) and their use of the KS funds.

Ok. We resolved the issue with the sale price on our site. So, until mid November, we are having a "YOU NEED SHIPPING CONTAINERS" sale. The Shipping Containers are on sale for US$10.99. That's right! Why are we doing this you ask? Because we want to see a shipping yard on every table across the land!

Now you may be thinking that you don't need any shipping containers. In that you are dead wrong. So you play Mercs, well then you need them. Opposing corporate forces look great when the are killed near shipping containers. Maybe you play Infinity. Then you really need them. MDF Noodle Huts are awesome, but those noodles can't be sold without them being delivered in a shipping container. "But I play 40K and the containers aren't grim dark enough." WHAT! Really!?! Them slap some red paint on them and glue a skeleton to the side! Dark enough for you now? Thought so!

No matter what modern or sci fi or post apoc or steam punk or whatever game you play, a dozen shipping containers will look awesome on your gaming table. What now? You only play games at your FLGS? No problem, just tell them to buy them and save your money for more minis instead. Just make sure those minis are purchased at that same FLGS. We will know!

And remember, if you actually do buy a dozen or more, Will will call you personally and talk to you for at least 5 minutes about his latest obsession. If you act now, them it will be home made bread and the weirdness of doomsday preppers shows. Act fast, this obsession could change anyway now.

P.S. if you are, in fact, a doomsday prepper, then our containers are realistically scaled so that you can know that the scale model of your bunker will match the real life one you plan to build for when the (insert paranoid scenario here) happens. So buy with confidence and increase you survival expectancy by at least 3 months with an accurately scaled model!

If I didn't still have a bunch of resin containers bought on impuls three years ago and never touched since, that sales pitch would have been enough to get me to buy more, just because. So, well played, sir.

 insaniak wrote:
If I didn't still have a bunch of resin containers bought on impuls three years ago and never touched since, that sales pitch would have been enough to get me to buy more, just because. So, well played, sir.

If I didn't have 80 dollars to my name, I would do the same.

 rustforge wrote:
And remember, if you actually do buy a dozen or more, Will will call you personally and talk to you for at least 5 minutes about his latest obsession.

This.

Having spoke at length with Will at Adepticon I can say that this is a great reward and should not be overlooked. They may say it's 5minutes but he'll easily blab for an hour if you prod him right.



Also ask for the Viagra story it's comic gold.

 rustforge wrote:
. MDF Noodle Huts are awesome, but those noodles can't be sold without them being delivered in a shipping container.

That's why the makers of said noodle hut sell their own shipping crates to go with them. Best of luck to you getting some money back from this whole affair though.

 WarMill wrote:
That's why the makers of said noodle hut sell their own shipping crates to go with them. Best of luck to you getting some money back from this whole affair though.

Well aren't you just being a Debbie Downer! Didn't mom teach about saying nice things and stuff? We aren't having the sale because we are desperate to get our money back (we are though). It's because we are nice guys and if we go out of business then you will never get to see my witty sales pitches anymore. Since I know that would cause suicidal depression in a vast majority of the gaming population, this sale is actually my attempt to save the gaming community as a whole! So help your fellow gamers (and me!) and get some hard plastic, superbly detailed, shipping containers already. The life you save may be your own. And you may cheer Warmill into saying something nice (maybe).

Anyway, since Paulson thinks its good stuff, I will make sure to regal all people who purchase a dozen containers with my story of Viagra. And NO, I didn't take it. I am not that old yet!

The only time a story with Will can truly be enjoyed is if there is pizza and maybe booze involved.

 Ouze wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
If you think any real lawyer is going to take your case to sue Defiance over a couple hundred bucks of pledge (or less) you are mistaken.

If only there were a court system that catered to small claims such as these; easily accessible to the public, which don't require a lawyer and only need some forms to be filled out.

Your advice is wrong. While I agree Kickstarter themselves are likely immune; the creator most certainly is not; there are many avenues to pursue (but yes, no blood from a turnip).

You can file in small claims court, but typically, you have to file in the municipality of where the defendant lives. Filing costs typically run in the $100-$200 range, depending on the area. If you don't live in the area of the defendant, you'll also have to either hire a lawyer to represent you in the court hearing or take on the expense and hassle of traveling to the courts at least once and maybe multiple times. Yes, all of these expenses can be added to the figures on the judgment, but getting a judgment absolutely in no way means that you'll ever see any money on it, even if the guy has the money to give you. Collecting on the judgment is far more difficult than obtaining the judgment.

It's unlikely that anyone would find all of this effort to be worth it over a KS donation of a couple hundred dollars.

Both of you got some of my money, and one of you has already shipped my package!

I hope in this case being the stand up guys has a positive effect for you two in the long run, you definatly earned points with me.

Ken, Mike and myself thank everyone who has supported us thru all this nonsense. We really appreciate the orders and I hope that all of you enjoy your purchases of plastic crack.

Caterpylius, your order should ship today if it hasn't already. Cut me some slack! Making these posts takes time. I am not nearly as witty as I make myself sound. As Alfendrate stated, food and sometimes alcohol are needed to make me sound this good.

After the letter were tony mud slung like a teenager I never realy liked the guy. Seemed realy unprofestional of the guy and even then didn't seem the whole truth. I never realy followed his antics once i was defience was makeing the same promises wargames did under tony. After reading about all the stand up guys who he has brought down thew all of this. Its prety disheartning.

Huh, I wonder if this is why they couldn't get the steel mold for bug plastics. They originally said that there were delays, perhaps they just weren't paying the mold-makers.

It seems really stupid because had they just done it the proper way and paid their debts, they'd be in a much better position even if there were delays.

Shepherd23 wrote:
Ken, Mike and myself thank everyone who has supported us thru all this nonsense. We really appreciate the orders and I hope that all of you enjoy your purchases of plastic crack.

Caterpylius, your order should ship today if it hasn't already. Cut me some slack! Making these posts takes time. I am not nearly as witty as I make myself sound. As Alfendrate stated, food and sometimes alcohol are needed to make me sound this good.

No worries I'm just being a wiseass.

All I can say is, I feel like a ass putting a model I got from Defiance on the table. Knowing my support is helping Defiance rip off other people.

Hope everyone noticed that it was Proxie that Defiance had tagged as the caster for their german mech. Which Proxie didn't know about and now (obviously) won't be doing.

So they ALREADY weren't paying one of the supposed suppliers for part of their KS fulfillment before the KS had even finished (or started for that matter).
And they now need to find a new caster for their mech or, *shudder* do it themselves.

I was popping in on TTGN, as I tend to do at least twice a day and noticed Rust Forge was having a sale.

This would be a great time to show your support....

 NoseGoblin wrote:
I was popping in on TTGN, as I tend to do at least twice a day and noticed Rust Forge was having a sale.

This would be a great time to show your support....

I also posted it further up this page AND in the news and rumors section as well as 3 other forum sites. This was just in case you missed the TTGN post. Now go order some so the eisenkern have something to die around!

Shepherd23 wrote:

 NoseGoblin wrote:
I was popping in on TTGN, as I tend to do at least twice a day and noticed Rust Forge was having a sale.

This would be a great time to show your support....

I also posted it further up this page AND in the news and rumors section as well as 3 other forum sites. This was just in case you missed the TTGN post. Now go order some so the eisenkern have something to die around!

Schaa..Noice.

Up on my FB and blog as well.

 NoseGoblin wrote:

Shepherd23 wrote:

 NoseGoblin wrote:
I was popping in on TTGN, as I tend to do at least twice a day and noticed Rust Forge was having a sale.

This would be a great time to show your support....

I also posted it further up this page AND in the news and rumors section as well as 3 other forum sites. This was just in case you missed the TTGN post. Now go order some so the eisenkern have something to die around!

Schaa..Noice.

Up on my FB and blog as well.

Thank you for that. We appreciate it more than you know. PM me your banner and we will place it on our site.

I know it's another topic, but everyone can go vote for Proxie Models to get a grant of sorts. He needs 250 votes!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/559591.page