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 Inevitable_Faith wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
A good use for the 5 Special Weapons on the Command Squad is 5 Heavy bolters. Replaces the Retributors, you get 1 extra gun but no rending. Most importantly you have a spare Slot for another Exorcist. So overall, if you want to go to a more "shooty" Tau-Style, you can have a lot of Heavy Bolters and Exorcists in a standard CAD. Extra Canoness not really useful then, though.

I've used my command squad as all HB before too, also done up with 4 HB and a hospitaller, makes for a good camping unit that's tough to shift. Only downsides if I remember correctly is that the CS is more expensive than a ret squad per model, and their act of faith doesn't help out the HB at all. It does however free up a HS slot and that may be worth the two downsides in and of itself.

Never took the Hospitaller, there's enough S6 weapons trying to dislodge you and the 5th HB often made the difference. Most S5 or Below weapons just would not approach you anyway, as they are very area denying with 15 Shots at anything close lol.

Price per model is very close especially if you count the 5th HBolter (price up 4 CS squads against 5 Retributor Squads) but it's mainly the Free Heavy Support Slot which is the biggest reason for the swap.

I'd really really like it if they somehow made the celestians power "Any phase" rather than Assault Only. Heavy Bolter Command Squads would almost be a must take...

I think the hospitaller is most useful in a unit that you attach some ICs to and go charging things. Most of the incoming hits will be less than S6, but at that point you're dictating what units are hitting you.

Mavnas wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 pretre wrote:
For the same points, couldn't you use Jacobus and a battle conclave and get better results?

Not against 2+ saves, but against most other things, yes.

priests can et eviscerators and smash. So yeah...

Yeah, but you can stick those in either unit I mean, if you really wanted you could make a 5 priest unit with maces and one of them taking the book instead. It'd be pretty deadly if they didn't die before I3 came up. The cannoness is going to be our best character in a challenge though. Celestine has never done well for me against anything with a 2+ save.

But for less points, you can take a priest with rosarius and eviscerator and get the same performance (except EW). I just don't think taking her just for challenges is a good idea. Even Celestine with rerolls is better.

I run a Canoness, either with the above build, or with Rosarius + 2x Inferno Pistol.

 pretre wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 pretre wrote:
For the same points, couldn't you use Jacobus and a battle conclave and get better results?

Not against 2+ saves, but against most other things, yes.

priests can et eviscerators and smash. So yeah...

Yeah, but you can stick those in either unit I mean, if you really wanted you could make a 5 priest unit with maces and one of them taking the book instead. It'd be pretty deadly if they didn't die before I3 came up. The cannoness is going to be our best character in a challenge though. Celestine has never done well for me against anything with a 2+ save.

But for less points, you can take a priest with rosarius and eviscerator and get the same performance (except EW). I just don't think taking her just for challenges is a good idea. Even Celestine with rerolls is better.

The trouble with a priest with an eviscerator in a battle conclave is that you can't protect him from challenges without sacrificing another priest. Reroll able 4++ is nice, but still 25% chance to die before swinging. I wouldn't put that guy in a challenge against a normal MEQ sgt if I could help it. Too many points on a single wound. The canonness can take an average of 27 non-AP 3 wounds. The priest takes 4.

Yeah, hence why I fell back on Celestine. I want to say (and I don't feel like doing the math right now) that celestine is still better against 2+ armor than an evis canoness, but I'm probably wrong.

Could be fun

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, hence why I fell back on Celestine. I want to say (and I don't feel like doing the math right now) that celestine is still better against 2+ armor than an evis canoness, but I'm probably wrong.

Horribly so. The Canoness has better AP and higher S. That AP makes her 2-6 times as good per attack against 2+.

vs Terminators:

Canoness w/ Eviscerator: 3 Attacks at WS5 S6, 3+ To Hit, 2+ Wound, Termies get 5+ Invul = 1.11 Unsaved Wounds.

Celestine: 5 Attacks at WS7 S5, 3+ To Hit, 3+ to Wound, Termies get 2+ Armour = 0.37 Unsaved Wounds.

Celestine is at her best murdering MEQ or ICs with a 3+. The canonness is built to fight the enemy's big bad beatstick..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The more I think about it, the less I can think of a unit that could hold its own against a Cannoness and battle conclave at similar points cost.

So a little less than 3 times. Also doesn't take into account rerolls. Either way, I'll stick with Celestine. I have plenty of other things to deal with 2 plus. Celestine's mobility, solid trait and hit and run more than make up for it.


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Re units that hold up against conclave and canoness, I would imagine volume units would do well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, dreads and knights.

I love Celestine and never leave home without her

She is a solid character that murders anything with a 3+ or less save. I love challenging out powerfist Sargents either way my opponent is screwed . She also murders marine bike squads with her mobility and str 5 pw.

 pretre wrote:
So a little less than 3 times. Also doesn't take into account rerolls. Either way, I'll stick with Celestine. I have plenty of other things to deal with 2 plus. Celestine's mobility, solid trait and hit and run more than make up for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re units that hold up against conclave and canoness, I would imagine volume units would do well.


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Also, dreads and knights.

Well, 6 DCAs would get 24 attacks on the charge. If you toss in a couple priests, you get to reroll to hit, to wound, and saves. You would almost certainly sweep any non-fearless blob unit. Heck, if you got the charge against a pimped out Chapter Master and command squad with storm shields, you would probably be cursing the fact that ATSKNF is preventing you from sweeping him off the board.

Knights are of course going to do bad things to your Battle Conclave unless the priests have melta bombs... in which case you'll probably do nasty things to eachother. I seem to remember running the math last edition and deciding that in melee a 10 sister BSS with a priest with 2 total melta bombs should be able to take a knight assuming they made it into melee intact (which they might if you presented the knight with other scarier targets). I think the changes to the damage table skew that math a bit, but I could see a Cannoness + 2 priests all with melta bombs not having that much trouble with the knight unless bad rolls were made. You'd probably get a lot of your DCAs stomped on though.

But Celestine won't be any better against either of those either. I love her and take her as my warlord, but there's definitely a gap in terms of units that can go toe to toe with a melee death star and I have a tendency to lose her to the first bunch of S6 attacks that come in. (I guess she would be pretty broken if her toughness was higher.) I'm actually really looking forward to the BA book. I'm hoping they will have FA drop pods and more jetpack things that could keep up with Celestine. Realistically though, at the speed I paint, I would need to guess what will be awesome in 8th edition and get started now lol.

Celestine vs Chapter Master Smash*****
0.1646 wounds per round
-(5 attacks * (2/3 chance of hitting +* 1/3 chance needing MC * 2/3 chance of hitting)) * 1/2 chance of wounding * 1/6 chance of failing 2+ * 2/3 chance of failing FNP (Gorgon's chain adds +1) * 2/3 chance of failing IWND

Canoness w/ Eviscerator vs Smash*****
0.1491 wounds per round
-(3 attacks base * 1/2 chance of hitting) * 2/3 chance of wounding * 1/3 chance of failing 3++ * 2/3 chance of failing FNP * 2/3 chance of failing IWND

Iron Hands Chapter Master vs Celestine
.8333 wounds per round (or 83% chance of killing Celestine the first time) using a Thunder Hammer
-(4 attacks base * 1/2 chance of hittin) * 5/6 chance of wounding * 1/2 chance of failing 4++

Chapter Master vs Canoness
1.1852 wounds per round with Lightning Claw
-(4 attacks base * 2/3 chance of hitting) * (2/3 chance of wounding + 1/3 chance needing shred re-roll * 2/3 chance of wounding) * 1/2 chance of failing 4++

1.11 wounds per round with Thunder Hammer
-As above, except wounding chance is 5/6 instead of 7/9

Yeah, except the canoness has no reason not to have priests backing her up, whereas Celestine would not give up the mobility.

I guess really, I'd be counting on the canoness to be running with a supporting squad capable of wiping out Chapter Master Smash's squad easily, while Celestine would most likely be with Seraphim. Her job then would be to survive until wounds start spilling in.


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Consider a squad of 2 priests, one with book so they can activate hymns without chancing a roll, 6 DCAs, 4 crusaders (So 215 point squad, not a fair comparison to Celestine, but cheaper than a fully upgraded command squad for the CM or roughly equivalent to a command squad with grav guns or only shields.)

If the Sisters charge, 24 attacks * 8/9 hit * 5/9 wound * 1/3 save * 2/3 chance of failing FNP (assuming an apothecary there) = 2.66 dead bikers if they have shields, squad wiped out and wounds spilling into the challenge or into ICs attached to the squad otherwise. 2.33 marines attack back for 7 attacks * 1/2 hit * 5/6 wound (let's assume any melee weapon upgrade) * 1/9 fail saves = .32 dead crusaders. Priests and crusaders swing 11-12 times * 3/4 hit * 11/36 wound * 1/3 fail saves * 2/3 fail FNP = about .55 more.

So before the challenge happens at I1, there should be about 3 dead marines, with some chance the apothecary is one of them (priests have precision strikes). The part where the canoness shines is staying alive until your squad kills the enemy squad and with wounds spilling into challenges in 7th...

Non charge:

DCA 3 * 1/2 * 5/9 * 1/6 * 2/3 = about .1 wound

Multiply that by 6, add in the the priests + crusaders for another 11-12 attacks at about half that chance to wound and the squad is stripping off about a wound a turn.

Really what you need is a third priest with a mace. He'd have 3 * 1/2 * 3/4 * 1/3 * 2/3 = .25 wounds (Not great, but if we're assuming a gorgon chain he gets to swing after everyone else has had a chance to strip off wounds so he might have an easier time of it.)

The canoness is taking only half a wound with the rerollable 4++, which gives you an average of 6 rounds to break the CM's defenses, which should be enough.

Actually... as long as you've placed a crusader in base contact with the CM you could just decline the challenge and have him put wounds into rerollable 3++.

Unsupported the canoness doesn't have a chance to shine against the CM, but the main thing the canoness does is buy you time to have a battle conclave cut through things. Celestine and her typical squad will be cheaper and way more mobile. I feel like trying to compare the two is like trying to compare a dominion squad to Celestine's Seraphim squad. Totally different roles even if they compete for slots.

Actually, I can very much see Celestine in a blob squad with multiple Priests and Uriah Jacobus, tanking wounds as they march down field. It's not ideal but it's certainly viable.

The problem with Celestine is S6 and up insta kills her. This makes it hard to fight challenges against the toughest characters or advance slowly up the field not using terrain and her jump pack. With a small squad and the ability to leap tall buildings in a single bound, she can work wonders. Tie her to some infantry and her squishiness becomes more of a thing.

I have been considering Uriah in a 10 Seraphim squad though. Rerollable 5++ all the time would be pretty nice, but Celestine's trait is really growing on me. (When I was only playing 500 point games with Sisters, there was never a squad close enough to Celestine that she wasn't already attached to.)

Taikishi wrote:
Actually, I can very much see Celestine in a blob squad with multiple Priests and Uriah Jacobus, tanking wounds as they march down field. It's not ideal but it's certainly viable.

You missed my post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
As a side note to using Celestine in the 21+ blob with Jacobus and company, in a recent League game at 2000 points she Tanked all 17 Wounds from a SM Fellblade (the AP3 7" Blast) quite happily loosing no Wounds...

Would add that was his Turn 1 Shooting. She took another 3 or 6 Turn two, vague memory now... But definitely made all of those 2+ Saves! lol


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I think she died Turn 3 to his Fellblade Alternate Fire, but that was the turn i charged his main Grav Centurion+Libby+Tigurus in the middle of the board over the Relic.

They won that combat (Celestine reviving and charging back in helped) as the Centurions had been slightly weakened by Exorcsist fire.

Outflanking Doms had a really bad throw at the Fellblade though... But Won because i was walking away with the Relic =P

You're also missing the idea that Celestine has Hit and Run as well. So you can't lock that squad down. Canoness is stuck until she or her opponent dies.

I didn't miss it, BlackTalos. I also neglected to include acts of faith in my probabilities, but that leads me to this question:

Am I better using a Seraphim squad's Shred AoF during the shooting phase to soften up the squad I'm about to assault and for less overwatch shots, or should I use it during the assault itself? Celestine + a squad of Seraphim with four hand flamers (two models x two hand flamers) leads me to think I'm better off using it during the shooting phase because of the templates and gunfighter rules but I'm not as certain.

Did any of the above math take into account Celestine's weapon is master crafted?

Also, terminators aren't for stabbing, they are for Exorcising.

 deviantduck wrote:
Also, terminators aren't for stabbing, they are for Exorcising.

That was my point.

Mine did, but also included no charges on either side, no Acts of Faith, and no support from attached units.

Taikishi wrote:
I didn't miss it, BlackTalos. I also neglected to include acts of faith in my probabilities, but that leads me to this question:

Am I better using a Seraphim squad's Shred AoF during the shooting phase to soften up the squad I'm about to assault and for less overwatch shots, or should I use it during the assault itself? Celestine + a squad of Seraphim with four hand flamers (two models x two hand flamers) leads me to think I'm better off using it during the shooting phase because of the templates and gunfighter rules but I'm not as certain.

Definitely use it during the shooting phase. The Shred USR works really well on weapons that throw lots of hits out, which Flamers most certainly do. With 4 Hand Flamer Templates, plus Celestine's own Heavy Flamer Template, its not uncommon to be throwing out 25+ hits (even if you can only cover 4 models with each template, that's still 20 hits and then the other Seraphim effectively get to 'rapid fire' their two bolt pistols). Being able to re-roll all those wounds is gravy.

Of course if you've ended up in combat without a chance to use the AoF before hand, it's possibly not a bad idea. Seraphim are WS4 with 2 attacks in CC (since two Bolt Pistols = two Close Combat Weapons = +1 Attack), so they're not entirely terrible. Better to at least get some use out of the AoF rather than having the unit die without using it.

Except... you can't use the Seraphim's act of faith (shred) in the assault phase. It's shooting phase only.

oh lol, you're right. I was always thinking it was like Battle Sister squads, who can use theirs in either Shooting or Assault.

Oops! Somehow I missed the part that it was only shooting phase.

Nothing to see here...

Taikishi wrote:
Oops! Somehow I missed the part that it was only shooting phase.

Nothing to see here...

Even if there was such a choice, i would always recommend it for the Hand flamers shooting. Deep Striking Terminators especially love Celestine and the 4 Hand flamers.

An opponent of mine, wise to the method, elected to Run with shooty Terminators (DA too, so with TL) rather than stay in the perfect circle and roll 25+ dice and hope not to see 1s...

Yeah. I caught 10 cultists and a chaos sorc bunched up closely. Yet again, flamers were fired and Celestine failed to make the charge (typically in every game where I use flamers I fail at least one charge), but this time it was OK because the Handflamers had wiped out the whole unit before the other weapons in the squad had a chance to fire.

Indeed. Not much survives a seraphim pistol party.

Don't be fooled by the jump packs and paired weapons - that may be the mark of an assault unit in other armies, but seraphim are unashamedly a shooting unit. Paired with Celestine, they're superb - she gives them fearless, they give her Hit & Run, she lets them use her initiative for the check and throws and extra heavy flamer into the mix. Hold the squad in the middle of your lines to use celestine's warlord trait, then jump forwards and incinerate something.

You want melee troops, either get celestians or (better) forgo a purely sororitas force and get a battle conclave.

That doesn't mean 'don't charge' - after all, if the enemy's still there (albeit a bit crispy) then charging into them is probably safer than standing around to be shot in the following turn. But seraphim are all about firepower.