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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Don't forget that flamers get +d6 to their range due to being able to advance and shoot. It's actually a compelling choice now tbh, is just wish both were better.

Why are flamers able to fire after advance? Even with advancing, flamers achieve effectiveness out of 8+d6".

Also, Storm Bolters achieve equivalent effectiveness at 12" and half effectiveness out to 24"

pretre wrote:I'm thinking mixing weapons for Doms is a lot more important. After all, you can't ignore cover any more, so having a few flamers isn't as bad an idea.

It doesn't look like flamers ignore cover anymore, either, from the IG stuff. Eradicator Nova Cannon has a special clause to ignore cover, and flamers don't.

You may fire assault weapons after advancing.

So you can advance with melta as well...

 Melissia wrote:
I'm imagining a groundpounder list that's heavier on hospitallers, but I really don't know if I want to put it together right now. Thinking maybe 3*15 battle sisters with storm bolters and meltaguns, 2*5 celestians with storm bolters, 2 hospitallers, canoness, and 2*5 retributors with heavy bolters.

More just to try it out than anything else. The hospitallers look quite useful, but also a bit fragile.

Yeah Snipers would be a pain but its a cool idea

I wasn't saying taking flamers to ignore cover, I was saying since we don't have an IC AOF, it doesn't make it as worth it to go all out Melta.

 pretre wrote:
I wasn't saying taking flamers to ignore cover, I was saying since we don't have an IC AOF, it doesn't make it as worth it to go all out Melta.

Actually, since cover is a buff to armoursave and high AP is a penalty to armoursave, then the Melta effectively does ignore cover better than flamers and storm bolters.


From earlier post:



A flamer outperforms a storm bolter by a few percent. A Meltagun outperforms both rather drastically.

I think the Storm Bolter is just better than the flamer, considering it has flexibility granted by superior range and is 5 points cheaper.

The Meltagun is better in most cases, since the chance of killing a second 1-wound model is fairly low with the Storm Bolter and Flamer, but does marginal superiority against medium infantry and significant improvement against armor warrant the extra points spent?

Didn't you already post that?

 Melissia wrote:
Didn't you already post that?

Yes, I moved it here.

I didn't have any thoughts on it when I first posted it, so I figured since I decided to detail my own thoughts on the weapon comparison, then I might as well move it to where I was talking about it.

nevermind

lol monte carlo applied to toy soldiers, love it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
so on the subject of seraphim, is hand flamer still the weapon of choice? Celestine enabling AoF on a 2+ lets them shoot twice after deep striking in?

 troy_tempest wrote:
lol monte carlo applied to toy soldiers, love it!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
so on the subject of seraphim, is hand flamer still the weapon of choice? Celestine enabling AoF on a 2+ lets them shoot twice after deep striking in?

With regards to the latter, no, because it looks like Acts occur before movement, and therefore the Seraphim won't be on the board. But, conceivably, the Seraphim could stand next to Celestine, use her automatic one while she uses the 2+ one, then use Hand of the Emperor on turn 1 to move 12", then move 12", then shoot, then charge.

I'm not sure about hand flamers, but inferno pistols are still expensive, and both are better than bolt pistols.

can i also clarify - the days of ICs joining units are behind us? eg a canoness will always be on her own? Celestine will always be alone (apart from gemini)?

 troy_tempest wrote:
can i also clarify - the days of ICs joining units are behind us? eg a canoness will always be on her own? Celestine will always be alone (apart from gemini)?

Yes, but the Canoness and Celestine can't be targeted unless they're the closest model to the enemy, and provide aura buffs to friendly models.

what are ppls thoughs more generally on seraphim as a viable assult unit? They are so much cheaper now and pistols buffed in CC?

 troy_tempest wrote:
what are ppls thoughs more generally on seraphim as a viable assult unit? They are so much cheaper now and pistols buffed in CC?

Well, they're not really close combat units. They're shooting units with good mobility and hideously short range. As best, close quarters is for finishing off the unit they shot at.

It doesn't look like they have Hammer of Wrath anymore either, so they're just X+1 S3 AP0 melee attacks where X equals the number of Seraphim in your squad.

They could conceivably AoF move 12", Move 12", shoot, then charge, then next turn AoF shoot anyone left in the unit they charged, then move 12", then shoot, then charge again, and this would, at the very least, block some of the enemy shooting.

Yeah, I wouldn't use them as an assault unit.

Pretre: Since we can't shoot out of transports anymore, you need to revise your "Those you bail, fail." motto.

 deviantduck wrote:
Pretre: Since we can't shoot out of transports anymore, you need to revise your "Those you bail, fail." motto.

I know, right?

Anyone have the point roster for sob still? The 'full leaks' are missing SoB and the pic earlier in the thread looks like it's broken.

It's out there.

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, I wouldn't use them as an assault unit.

Do they have fly - if so they can go attack Flyers

ERJAK wrote:
Anyone have the point roster for sob still? The 'full leaks' are missing SoB and the pic earlier in the thread looks like it's broken.

Working for me.

But even then, we only have two weeks more to wait.

Looking more at it, I still honestly get the impression that Dialogous and Hospitaller characters will be more important to sisters than Imagifiers will. The ability to reroll failed morale checks-- and potentially not need to take casualties-- is really powerful, and Hospitallers will make battle sister squad bolter lines much more survivable for such a small investment. They're negligibly useful in combat compared to the imagifier, I will grant, but are also cheaper.

From what I got, the Imagifer are :
- Useless on embarked unit (not on the table at the beginning of the turn means no Act of Faith)
- Useless on tanks
- Useless if you can't keep up with the unit you want to buff (so no Seraphim)
So, basically I can only see two possible targets for imagifer: long-range Retributor (miam double shooting phase, but that won't really work on heavy flamer retrib because those need a transport) and foot-slogging BSS (and then usually maxed to maximize the AOF effect…).
If you have neither of those units just don't take any imagifer…

Still I wish the way the rule works exactly was made clearer!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
From what I got, the Imagifer are :
- Useless on embarked unit (not on the table at the beginning of the turn means no Act of Faith)
- Useless on tanks
- Useless if you can't keep up with the unit you want to buff (so no Seraphim)
So, basically I can only see two possible targets for imagifer: long-range Retributor (miam double shooting phase, but that won't really work on heavy flamer retrib because those need a transport) and foot-slogging BSS (and then usually maxed to maximize the AOF effect…).
If you have neither of those units just don't take any imagifer…

Still I wish the way the rule works exactly was made clearer!

It looks like almost everyone is misunderstanding how the Imagifiers work.


The Act of Faith special rule requires a unit with the "Act of faith" ability.

The imagifier requires a friendly unit with the "Order" keyword.


Essentially, they can AoF Rhinos, Immolators and... drumroll... Exorcists on a 4+

I'll let you workout the possibilities.

Voldrak wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
From what I got, the Imagifer are :
- Useless on embarked unit (not on the table at the beginning of the turn means no Act of Faith)
- Useless on tanks
- Useless if you can't keep up with the unit you want to buff (so no Seraphim)
So, basically I can only see two possible targets for imagifer: long-range Retributor (miam double shooting phase, but that won't really work on heavy flamer retrib because those need a transport) and foot-slogging BSS (and then usually maxed to maximize the AOF effect…).
If you have neither of those units just don't take any imagifer…

Still I wish the way the rule works exactly was made clearer!

It looks like almost everyone is misunderstanding how the Imagifiers work.


The Act of Faith special rule requires a unit with the "Act of faith" ability.

The imagifier requires a friendly unit with the "Order" keyword.


Essentially, they can AoF Rhinos, Immolators and... drumroll... Exorcists on a 4+

I'll let you workout the possibilities.

He's right, and the way AoF is worded on the main page doesn't technically contradict it (though it's a close thing) RAI might not be right but RAW this is how it works. Loopholes!

Yes, but you can't use that AoF aura of Imagifiers from within Rhinos, as the imagifier is not on the table.

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, but you can't use that AoF aura of Imagifiers from within Rhinos, as the imagifier is not on the table.

Sending transports 24" downfield, or going 12" and disembarking (again loopholes!) might still be worth though.

Yes, but in the process, you're leaving the imagifiers behind.

Leaving them behind is fine, it all depends on what you do with them afterwards.

Here are two possible scenarios

Put a rhino with 9 repentias and a mistress on your 12 inch line. Leave another squad nearby that the imagifier can get to for subsequent turns.
AoF the rhino 12 inches up. Move 12 inches up. Next turn you can disembark and threaten almost anything with a nasty assault on his side of the table.

Depending on how this is ruled, it might be that the AoF move is not an actual move since its not in the move phase per say. If that is the case, you could disembark repentias turn 1 and, if your opponent deployed too close, you stand a good chance at charging with the mistress reroll


Instead of buying three Exorcists. Buy two and use the 160 points left over to buy 4 imagifiers.
You gain tactical flexibility across your army, or leave all 4 with those 2 exorcists. You stand a good chance at getting them both an AoF effectively shooting 4 exorcists for the cost of 3.

And you also stand an equally good chance shooting two exorcists at the cost of three, as well.