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Rubenite wrote:
Quick and dirty math hammer, Power Axe seems to still be king of all situations except against T5, where sword and axe would both be wounding on 5+ . Fortunately this toughness value is reasonably uncommon.
(EDIT: Sword would also be better against T8 and above where Sword/Axe both wound on 6+)

The below chart of unsaved wounds assumes all 4 of the Canoness' attacks hit (pretty likely given WS2+ with rerolling 1s)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also Combi-Plasma seems like a great choice for the Canoness' ranged weapon as you can supercharge it and reroll the 1s using her ability. Not sure how to work out the overall probability for two dice (rapid fire), but it's a <3% chance to roll a one followed by another one.

Chance of rolling at least one 1 on 2d6 with a re-roll is 5.48%

C(at least one 1) = 1 - (odds of no 1s)
c(a1) = 1 - (5/6+(1/6*5/6) * (5/6+(1/6*5/6)
c(a1) = 1 - (35/36) * (35/36)
c(a1) = 1 - (35/36)^2
c(a1) = 1 - (1225/1296)
c(a1) = 1 - 0.9452
c(a1) = 0.0548

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
anyone considering inferno pistol seraphim? I thought to keep them on the board for a first turn objective grab/ shoot assault via AOF, roasting with hand flamers, but its entirely possible to get within 6inchs with two 12 + d6 movement phases.

They are hard to use due to only being 6 inches range, they are somewhat expensive and 4d6 str 3 hits is awesome to force saves on just about anything to be honest.

My two squads of seraphims with hand flamers did a number on Khorne Berserkers. I loved how they did.

I tried inferno pistols in the previous edition and found it incredibly hard to get them into range and almost impossible to get them into melta range. The one time I managed, I lost 2 seraphim when their target exploded in their face.

Using an act of faith on the seraphims helps a lot for the short range.

I played a squad of 10 with hand flamers last saturday, and flamers are great no doubt. But at some point I charged a razorback who was against a wall (blocking it in the process) so they were not shootable. I sure wished they had inferno pistol at that point so I could have shot the vehicle to death while staying engaged.

Inferno Pistol suicide squads have done work for my wife so far. They're so good flying up-table, turn-1 alongside a Celestine at removing a particularly troublesome target.

Yes, the Flamer Pistols will tend to do more work but neither are bad.

I feel like, with the number of Melta Dominions that we've got access too, that using St. Celestine and the Seraphim to roast larger blobs of things is probably a good idea, just so that we don't put all of our eggs into the 'kill tough, high wounds' basket.

 Paimon wrote:
I feel like, with the number of Melta Dominions that we've got access too, that using St. Celestine and the Seraphim to roast larger blobs of things is probably a good idea, just so that we don't put all of our eggs into the 'kill tough, high wounds' basket.

agreed, and I think it does depend on your opponent. If I am facing hordes, certainly take the flamers. But, consider the I go, you go, deployment. I feel like most people will see a 4x meltagun dominion squad in a MM immolator as a major threat to their vehicle/monster/etc, and so deploy accordingly. THAT is a situation I want inferno pistol seraphim, as they can counter deploy that and move 24+ 2d6 to get in that 6 inch range.

I'm trying the opposite direction. I've done the melta spam and it doesn't feel nearly as good with 2d6 damage pick highest instead of 2d6 for armour pen (You'd think they'd do 2d6 for wound pick the highest instead of damage). Instead I'm going back to exorcists and using Imagifiers on them for the acts of faith from turn 2. Turn 1 is to rush up all the HF rets.

2000 points:

Detachment 1:
HQ1: Celestine (250)
FA1: Seraphim x5, 2x2HF (79)
FA2: Seraphim x5, 2x2HF (79)
E1: Imagifier (40)
E2: Imagifier (40)
HS1: Rets 4xHF (103)
DT1: Immolator – Immolation Flamer (103)
HS2: Rets 4xHF (103)
DT2: Immolator – Immolation Flamer (103)
HS3: Rets 4xHF (103)
DT3: Immolator – Immolation Flamer (103)

Detachment 2:
HQ2: Cannoness (45)
FA3: Seraphim x5, 2x2HF (79)
E1: Imagifier (40)
E2: Imagifier (40)
HS4: Rets 4xHF (103)
DT4: Immolator – Immolation Flamer (103)
HS5: Exorcist (160)
HS6: Exorcist (160)
HS7: Exorcist (160)

I've ~15 2k games since 8th leaked and the meltas seem underwhelming, though most of my games have been against Daemons, Orkz, Quins, Tau and Marines so that will be skewing it somewhat. Facing knights tomorrow with this so that'll be the big test of if it can handle big tough guys.

Hello friends. I heard about our new AoF and very interested about it. When I saw the rule, I thought about melta-dominion squad with immolator who move scout moving and move more by AoF so they can bring the death of vehicle and monster.

But I'm little bit upset now because many people in this thread are saying that we can't use AoF when they are riding the vehicle. I re-read my index again and again but I can't find out the reason we can't use Aof in the vehicle. Is there any kind guy who can help this poor faith-binding brother?

jim300 wrote:
Hello friends. I heard about our new AoF and very interested about it. When I saw the rule, I thought about melta-dominion squad with immolator who move scout moving and move more by AoF so they can bring the death of vehicle and monster.

But I'm little bit upset now because many people in this thread are saying that we can't use AoF when they are riding the vehicle. I re-read my index again and again but I can't find out the reason we can't use Aof in the vehicle. Is there any kind guy who can help this poor faith-binding brother?

Firstly, just to clarify, it is NEVER possible to AoF someone IN a vehicle or for an imagifier to use it's AoF while it is embarked due to the transport rules.

Basically the Acts of Faith rules states that no one can use the 2+ role at the beginning of the turn who doesn't have AoF but doesn't specifically stop people from using acts of faith.

Add on to that that both Celestine and the Imagifiers rules allow their AoFs to apply to units that do not have the AoF rule and that's how we get Aofs on vehicles.

However it has been indicated by playtesters and people who have a more conservative interpretation of the rule was that the Intent of the rule was to stop anything that doesn't have AoF from benefiting from it, even though it doesn't actually do that.

Yeah, I imagine once we get faqs that it will get removed from anything without the AoF special rule.

Jim, there are two reasons we are saying this.

Firstly, in the Transports section of the core rules, it states that:

'embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no affect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.

As Acts of Faith occur at the start of your turn (before the movement phase where you disembark), this means:

- No Act of Faith on units inside a transport
- Embarked Imagifier cannot affect any other units with its ability
- You have to disembark and wait till the start of your next turn to use the Imagifier's ability

Secondly, and this is up for some debate, it is unclear whether the Imagifier can be used to grant an Act of Faith to a vehicle itself as the wording simply reads 'Pick an <ORDERr> unit within 6" and perform an Act of Faith with it'. Some people are reading this as bypassing the restriction in the Act of Faith Ability which states 'one unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform and Act of Faith chosen from the following list'. Vehicles do have the <ORDER> keyword but do not have the Act of Faith ability, nor have they in previous editions, so I would very much expect this to be FAQ'd very soon as not possible with the Imagifier. Same for Celestine's 'Saintly Blessings' ability (vehicles do also have the ADEPTA SORORITAS keyword.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Ynnari soulburst ability from last edition is a good precedent in that people also interpreted that the same way to grant vehicles a soulburst action when they did not inherently have this ability. They've reworded this ability in the new edition to be more explicit that vehicles can never perform a soulburst, and I full expect them to do the same with Acts of Faith.

I've got an idea of Inferno Pistol Seraphim.

I'm expecting to see a lot of mounted up troops.

Since Seraphim can cross the board on turn 1, I was thinking that I could AoF them forward, move 12", Inferno pistol a transport for half it's Wounds, then charge it and surround it completely and inferno pistol it with an AoF at the beginning of the turn two to blow it up and get the guys inside as a bargain.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I've got an idea of Inferno Pistol Seraphim.

I'm expecting to see a lot of mounted up troops.

Since Seraphim can cross the board on turn 1, I was thinking that I could AoF them forward, move 12", Inferno pistol a transport for half it's Wounds, then charge it and surround it completely and inferno pistol it with an AoF at the beginning of the turn two to blow it up and get the guys inside as a bargain.

Blocking the passenger from disembarking is a lot harder now.

Models that disembark are set up anywhere within (and not fully within) 3" of the vehicle, so you have to block an enormous zone to prevent them from being place don the board. Basically, you need one row of model 1-2" away fro, the hull, then a second row 3-4" away. I did it on a stormraven, but I had to use 10 seraphims, 10 sisters and a couple rhino/immolators.

I haven't seen the Index yet, but I thought I might float an idea. The buff to stormbolters may give me a reason to use all my unused SB Sisters.

Im assuming the vanguard rule works similar to scout, SBs get 4 shots under 12", and theres an AoF that allows 2 rounds of shooting for a squad. A 10 strong Dominion squad in a Rhino with 4x stormbolters and another on the Superior, would have 60 shots in one turn, from one squad. Plus another potential 8 if you give the rhino 2 of them. Thats almost 70 shots, how many points would this squad cost? I cant imagine its much.

I think this would be pretty cool. Thoughts?

Just realized something. Our hand flamers are d6 hits for 6pts, blood angels hand flamers are d3 for 8pts? hope the blood angels one is the typo.

Also their inferno pistols much more expensive, but maybe thats due to them having much better stats.

On another note, what do yall think of Uriah so far. worth the 100 pts???

oh and the__Jakman, yes that is pretty cool, but is it worth it over melta spam??

the_Jakman wrote:
I haven't seen the Index yet, but I thought I might float an idea. The buff to stormbolters may give me a reason to use all my unused SB Sisters.

Im assuming the vanguard rule works similar to scout, SBs get 4 shots under 12", and theres an AoF that allows 2 rounds of shooting for a squad. A 10 strong Dominion squad in a Rhino with 4x stormbolters and another on the Superior, would have 60 shots in one turn, from one squad. Plus another potential 8 if you give the rhino 2 of them. Thats almost 70 shots, how many points would this squad cost? I cant imagine its much.

I think this would be pretty cool. Thoughts?

197 points by my count.

I like the 102 point version with 3 stormbolters on a 10-strong BSS who maybe give up an early turn of shooting to advance into some midfield cover and hunker down. Running one of those up each flank while your Dominions draw fire in the center should set them up with good LoS and a 2+ save. 26 shots per turn at short range even without AoFs should see them making back their points over the course of a game.

I think Dominions using Vanguard without a transport could pull a similar stunt. I'd probably do the 70-point min/max version for 20 shots per turn at short range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Just realized something. Our hand flamers are d6 hits for 6pts, blood angels hand flamers are d3 for 8pts? hope the blood angels one is the typo.

Also their inferno pistols much more expensive, but maybe thats due to them having much better stats.

On another note, what do yall think of Uriah so far. worth the 100 pts???

oh and the__Jakman, yes that is pretty cool, but is it worth it over melta spam??

My thinking on Jacobus is that if he's worth it, it's probably not in a pure Sisters army. I think he'd be good standing between two conscript blobs with Commissars. LD 9, no big losses to Morale, extra attacks in CC. I think he's overcosted in general.

Ok.. I think I finalized my 2k list for the 3 inaugural 8th games i'm playing Friday. Our FLGS is doing an 11pm to 6am release party. We can pick up our books at midnight and it's BYOB with 12 open tables.

Vanguard
HQ
Celestine
2x Geminae

Elites
Imagifer x 3
Hospitaler x2
Vindicare Assasin x1

Fast Attack
Dominions Melta x1
Seraphim Flamer x1

Spearhead
HQ
Canoness x1

Fast Attack
Dominions Melta x2
Immolator x2

Heavy
Retributor Bolter x 3
Exorcist x3

I plan on making a nice rear blob with Retributors in front, imagifers, hospitalers, and canoness in middle, and 3 exorcists in back. So all 6 heavies get to reroll 1s, and the 3x 4+ AoF can go on anti horder bolters or exorcists. And 2x hospitalers to keep the rets at full strength and a meat shield. Celestine and Seraphim to harass. 2 Dominions in 1 immolater, and 1 dominion in the other, or save the other immolators to load up with canoness, 3x imagifers and hospitaler if i'd like to do some deployment shenanigans to go first. And the vindicare will hang out in some cover somewhere picking off the enemy characters.

At some point i'll stick a squad of 50 conscripts around the front as bubble wrap, but I don't have any suitable models for that yet.

By the way, are any of you at all worried about Celestine losing 1-2 of her Geminaes and then dying in the morale phase (with the wording preventing her from resurrecting)?

It's not possible for Celestine to die in the morale phase; her leadership is 10 and the highest you can roll if you lose both of her geminae is an 8. 6+2

Morale is models lost, not wounds lost.

Also, on the matter of eviscerators and power weapons (because Rubenite's data doesn't include chance to miss):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HnXYfQ5IYq6MZFIe3hD1ISOY1KAaglqM-y9Za0kwldY/edit#gid=0

Taikishi wrote:
It's not possible for Celestine to die in the morale phase; her leadership is 10 and the highest you can roll if you lose both of her geminae is an 8. 6+2

Morale is models lost, not wounds lost.

Ah, I hadn't noticed that morale only used one dice. Good catch.

Minor point, but Celestine actually only has Ld9 for some reason. I know it's irrelevant in this case but I might as well mention it.

Taikishi wrote:


Also, on the matter of eviscerators and power weapons (because Rubenite's data doesn't include chance to miss):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HnXYfQ5IYq6MZFIe3hD1ISOY1KAaglqM-y9Za0kwldY/edit#gid=0

Awesome stuff Taikishi! Thank you so much for doing the hard work and sharing it with us. That's certainly a comprehensive spreadsheet!

Whilst I do still think the Axe is the go-to, the Eviscerator is certainly a fun choice! The D3 damage per hit is is where it really shines, as so many 2+ saves have an Invul. It's perfect as a character killer. Expensive though, so you may wish for her to be accompanied by a small squad of Celestians to increase her survivability. Add a priest for the +1 attack, and a Power Axe on the Celestian Superior (who has 3 attacks base) and you have a pretty mean CC unit starting to come together - could this be a combo worth taking?

 vipoid wrote:

Taikishi wrote:
It's not possible for Celestine to die in the morale phase; her leadership is 10 and the highest you can roll if you lose both of her geminae is an 8. 6+2

Morale is models lost, not wounds lost.

Ah, I hadn't noticed that morale only used one dice. Good catch.

Minor point, but Celestine actually only has Ld9 for some reason. I know it's irrelevant in this case but I might as well mention it.

I screwed that up in a game and lost so many squads, including Celestine.

On the subject of Celestine, has anyone thought about or playtested only taking one Geminae over two?

In my theoryhammer, taking one seems like the better choice, as you could spend 55 points on 5 Seraphim instead of 50 points on one Geminae, and they have:

- More wounds (5 vs 2)
- 5++ reroll (thanks to Celestine's buff + Angelic visage) is better than 4++
- You can stick them in front of Celestine so her unit cannot be targeted (as they have Character keyword)
- More versatility as objective holders etc.
- Good synergy with Celestine's 6" bonus Act of Faith

Rubenite wrote:
On the subject of Celestine, has anyone thought about or playtested only taking one Geminae over two?

I've considered it. To be honest, I've also considered taking no Geminaes at all. It's a waste of Celestine's Healing Tears ability, but at the same time she's still insanely good for a mere 150pts (how many other HQs at that price can boast a 12" move, fly, 7 wounds, a 2+/4+, a 6++ aura, a heavy flamer, 6 S7 AP-3 D2 attacks that hit on 2s, an automatic Act of Faith each turn and resurrection on a 2+?).

Anyway, I think I'd view the Geminaes - and the second Geminae especially - as being a bonus rather than a must. I mean, they're well armoured but their damage output is pretty meh for 50pts. I'd be inclined to take one and then build the rest of my list to see whether I have enough points to add a second one.

However, I say this as someone considering Celestine to lead an IG army, so feel free to take this with a pinch of salt.

Why not both?

The problem I see with it is that once Big C takes a wound you then have to allocate wounds to the wounded model in a unit. She'd be taking all the wounds even if she had one or more geminae. you'd then have to spend you're AoF on healing her up to full so that you can allocate wounds to the geminae.

I, and i think most people, plan on running Big C with both geminae and by 10 seraphim. It seems pretty mandatory to take to take Celestine and it seems even more mandatory to bring the seraphim to tank for her.

Would you ever consider taking Celestine with no geminaes at all?

Drider wrote:
The problem I see with it is that once Big C takes a wound you then have to allocate wounds to the wounded model in a unit. She'd be taking all the wounds even if she had one or more geminae. you'd then have to spend you're AoF on healing her up to full so that you can allocate wounds to the geminae.

I, and i think most people, plan on running Big C with both geminae and by 10 seraphim. It seems pretty mandatory to take to take Celestine and it seems even more mandatory to bring the seraphim to tank for her.

Never allocate to Celestine if there are Geminae up.

 pretre wrote:

Drider wrote:
The problem I see with it is that once Big C takes a wound you then have to allocate wounds to the wounded model in a unit. She'd be taking all the wounds even if she had one or more geminae. you'd then have to spend you're AoF on healing her up to full so that you can allocate wounds to the geminae.

I, and i think most people, plan on running Big C with both geminae and by 10 seraphim. It seems pretty mandatory to take to take Celestine and it seems even more mandatory to bring the seraphim to tank for her.

Never allocate to Celestine if there are Geminae up.

Hmmmmm I see what Drider is saying - a common scenario will be:

- Celestine's unit gets hit with enough firepower to kill Geminae and wound Celestine
- Your next turn you revive Geminae, but as Celestine is still wounded any further hits will have to be allocated to her before Geminae as per core rules
- You can mitigate this somewhat by using AoF to heal D3 wounds, but you'd need to restore her to full to be able to allocate to Geminae again.

This to me just emphasises the value in taking the Seraphim in a ring around her so that her Character unit is never the closest target. I've got 6 Seraphim in my current list, but with big C handing out a leadership buff to 9 a blob of 10 would probably fare reasonably well under morale.