Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 raiden wrote:
I love painted models, I just discovered I cannot paint them to the level I want them to be painted. so I will have to pay others for painting :( (dam my shakey hands!)

and its not fun to spends 3 hours on a few models and then say, (man,, these guys don't look good) :(

Practice, practice, practice.

Also, now more than ever before it's really easy to get a TT standard paint job. Three or four steps, and two or three colours at a bare minimum. Easy.

Step 0: prime
Step 1: base
Step 2: wash/shade
Step 3: basic highlight

Done!

Yes, it's pretty crude by miniature painting standards and it's no golden demon. But it's infinitely better than a mass of grey or black. And, even doing this will improve your painting skills.

Good luck!

 Ratius wrote:

Painting is not for everyone. Anyone who says it is part of the Hobby is wrong. It's a part of THEIR hobby.

This Hobby can be all or just one of these and more that I may have forgotten.

Gaming
Collecting Minis
Painting
Converting
Fluff
People Interaction

So if only one applies to you, then Kudos for at least putting an army together, and then do what you like, Play and have fun.

Fair enough post, well written.

But how far do you push it then?
What if someone showed up to play you with a Landraider but hadnt bothered to glue the side sponsons on ("too much hassle!") or all their tactical marines had no bolters glued on ("hadnt got the time!").

So you now have half glued models, non painted, non WYSIWYG (I hate that rule btw - just saying).

Where can we draw the line?

Where do we draw the line? That is hard to say. I have had this happen to me. It was in a tourney no less. Nothing big, just a few people getting together and doing some gaming and like a $35 prize for winning. I don't like WYSIWYG, so I let it slide. I just like to have fun. I guess because I have a bad memory, I just keep asking every few minutes, "what is that again?" so even if it was WYSIWYG, I would have been doing it anyway.

Where to draw the line? I guess it all depends. Does a person get alot of games frequently? Is it hard for this person to get games? When all you do is play strangers all the time, it's hard because again, everyone is in the hobby differently for different reasons. If you have a gaming group and you keep seeing the same people over and over again, it gets a bit tougher again. Usually when you see the same people over and over again, you get to know them a bit. So you get to know the reasons why they are in the hobby. I guess you would say, you would like to see an improvement abit at least, each time. You would see a few more minis painted, or see the tank completed at least if not painted. Then over time you would see a completed army. Problem is, not everyone is motivated/into the hobby as others.

So we either have to accept it so we can get some gaming in. Lots of places it's hard to get a game in so some people can't really be so picky. Or we put our foot down, and KINDLY decline a game. Explain to the person that you would like to play a fully painted army today (or WYSIWYG etic) for that day. Explain you play alot of "incomplete armies" and would like to play a "full" army once in a while. Or maybe say, "Ok I will play you this time but hopefully next time, your army will be more "complete" or "progress" done to it.

I really tried to think of the other camp, and I can now see why people would want to play against fully painted armies. I think it comes down to they took the time to do so, and would have appreciated that the other person did as well. Problem is, as stated not everyone takes the time or energy to be part of "the persons hobby".

I know, it's tuff, the person wants to play. The person wants to play at what ever "level" that person plays at. It's hard to be polite all the time, when that person can't play at his "level" and it gets upsetting when he/she can't find a game to do so. Sorry for babbling, just kept thinking too much.

TL;DR So when to draw the line? I guess it all depends, on how often you can find a game and be picky about it. Some people just have no choice and accept what cards he is delt with to just get a game.

Was it really necessary to post this thread? OP already posted into another identical debate the same day this thread was started. Ridiculous.

Said it in the other thread (which was started yesterday i think?) on this - If a potential opponent will not play me because my army is not 100% painted, then we're both better off not playiing one another. He, so my partially painted army doesn't wound his delicate sensibilities, I because i can guarantee that's not someone i will want to spend my time gaming with or hanging out with.

I paint, i like it, but i paint slowly - very very very slowly. I have armies i've literally been making progress on for years that are not 100% painted. My entire gaming group have high pressure, long hours at the office (or working from home) careers - i'm lucky if i can find an hour or two a week to devote to any hobby.


The whole idea of righteous indignation that "i put the time in to paint my army, so should you" strikes me as entitlist. Similarly the "your army not being painted detracts from my enjoying the game" i simply find paltry and unconvincing.

... I mean are there REALLY people out there that, if someone walked up, extended their hand and said "Hey, my name's Remy, Yours ? Yyou play Necros right ? Wanna get a game ? Great ! " and then proceeds to take out his models which are not painted, ... you mean to tell me there are people out there that would in some manner say "Whoa, whoa whoa.... back up there, "friend". No paint, no game - you wan't to throw dice with me, i suggest you pick up a paint brush and get to work on a tabletop standard (since you're a non-painting heathen, that's no primer showing with at least 3 basecoat colors)."

Really ? Cuz if so... that's like the popped collar, awesome-blossom haircut version of a tabletop wargamer.

I just can't fathom that, i and i sure as hell wouldn't want to play against anyone that seemingly uptight.


-- Haight

I wouldn't mind if it's a once off and not a trend. I have a freind who has a unit for months and there still half primed. To make it worse it's a trend through out his army. So I dont like playing against him..

I don't really have a choice.
At my FLGS I'm one of the only people out of about 40 that bring a fully painted army to the table.
Most people either have just recently gotten back into the hobby and only have a handful of models painted and the rest grey/primed, or don't care to paint them because "They're bad at painting".
That excuse bugs me, we all started out bad at painting. It takes time and practice to get decent/good. At least put a little effort into it, helps with the immersion!

 OminusMarine wrote:
I don't really have a choice.
At my FLGS I'm one of the only people out of about 40 that bring a fully painted army to the table.
Most people either have just recently gotten back into the hobby and only have a handful of models painted and the rest grey/primed, or don't care to paint them because "They're bad at painting".
That excuse bugs me, we all started out bad at painting. It takes time and practice to get decent/good. At least put a little effort into it, helps with the immersion!

I'm bad at painting. But then again I have very, very little time to do any work on them.

"The only way to get better at walking on hills is by walking on hills." -Dad, to a young, terrified me as I bumshuffled down a steep slope on a tramping trip.

Similarly, the only way to improve your painting is to paint. The first model will likely be appalling. The second, slightly better. By the end of a ten-man unit, you have the basics down. By the time you're doing your fifth unit, you might even have the cajones to try a bit of highlighting.

On-topic, yes. I will hope to see progress being made over the following months though, otherwise I often lose interest.

I have no problem playing unpainted models (I like a basecoat though) as long as they are assembled. The one thing to keep in mind is that many tournaments enforce a "3-color minimum" standard, so you'll be out of luck if you want to frequent that scene.
I am a terrible painter, so I use paints from Walmart and have very little detail at all on my models; I put a little more time into characters but probably only 60% of my army is painted. If you picked up one of my terminators you would cringe. But from 5 feet away, 30 of them with my basic paintjob look far better on the table than the ones that are just spray painted silver.

Of course i'd play against unpainted miniatures. I'd always personally prefer to play against a painted force, but I'd never exclude anybody on that basis alone. That seems slightly pretentious, elitist, and unnecessary. There are a good amount of reasons why somebody would play an unpainted force and, in the end, what they do with their hobby, time, and products they purchase isn't any of my concern. I like to paint my models, if they don't that's cool too.

Personally, I play these games as a means to be part of a larger whole whose interests are similar to mine that, without the game, I may not be privy to otherwise. By shaming another player for not having models that are 'good enough' for you makes the hobby look worse, damages the community as a whole, and just generally makes you look like kind of an (expletive deleted). Play the game as you see fit and leave others to do the same.

 drock403 wrote:
Of course i'd play against unpainted miniatures. I'd always personally prefer to play against a painted force, but I'd never exclude anybody on that basis alone. That seems slightly pretentious, elitist, and unnecessary. There are a good amount of reasons why somebody would play an unpainted force and, in the end, what they do with their hobby, time, and products they purchase isn't any of my concern. I like to paint my models, if they don't that's cool too.

Personally, I play these games as a means to be part of a larger whole whose interests are similar to mine that, without the game, I may not be privy to otherwise. By shaming another player for not having models that are 'good enough' for you makes the hobby look worse, damages the community as a whole, and just generally makes you look like kind of an (expletive deleted). Play the game as you see fit and leave others to do the same.

You have earned, and received an exalt , and quite frankly that last part is very true, if when I had first entered I ran into that said you have to paint before you can play with us I probably would have quit

Although I prefer the look of two painted armies fighting over a well made table, I have no problem playing against an unpainted force. The only thing that really bothers me is when the opposing army's unfinished nature actually affects the game, which is usually more of a modeling thing, like Rhinos that are actually AV14 all around and belch out a squad of armless terminators that conjure combi-melta shots out of the aether before charging into combat with thunderhammers and stormshields...

Been a few threads like this popping up but I will say again, if anyone turned down a player just because his army is not painted then that guy seriously needs to get a life. Do I prefer playing against painted armies? Yes, will I ever refuse someone a game because they dont have a painted army? Never in a thousand years. When not playing the hobby for example I have work, military duties, school and social life outside of 40k (primarily when dating a great girl) that take point over painting and building my models and the same goes for other people.

I might go either way. I will never judge somebody for a badly painted army. If that's the best you've got, I don't mind. But if you didn't even bother and you're just half-assing it, I'd get offended.

I will play against unpainted or even just grey plastic. Obviously I much prefer to play against painted armies, it makes the game a lot more immersive and fun.
Personally I didn't even bring my first army, space marines, to the hobby store to play until I actually painted the entire army. I thought I would be a joke if I went with a half painted army, I was wrong. People were impressed that I had a fully painted army for my first time.

Some people have fully painted armies at my local game store but most are half painted and I don't mind, I know how long it takes to paint an army (I'm still working on a skaven army which is the definition of a horde army 200 models at 1500 points lol)
I still refuse to bring a half painted army to the game store because I want my army to look good or at least mediocre as my paint skills are just average.

For the people who say they suck at painting and that's why they don't paint their army I understand. My first space marine army was pretty poorly painted but looked fine on the tabletop. But if you paint more you get better and then one day you will paint a model and say to yourself "Damn I actually painted this? It's awesome!"

Just my 2 cents

Go down to Lowe's or Walmart and grab some simple green or an equivalent. Paint them all. The early ones will be rough but you can use the simple green to scrub them clean again and start over. This won't work well if you have to do it multiple times as the bits you can't get will build up.

Anyone that tells you they won't play against you because your army is a work in progress because it ruins the experience lacks imagination.



Correct for autocorrect

I'll play against unpainted, primed, basecoated, etc - I prefer to play against painted armies though.

One thing I won't do is play new opponents with partially assembled models (models must be fully built or be special circumstances with a friend).

As for the OP, poor painting skills shouldn't hold you back from "finishing" your army. An army can still be painted decently with zero technique if you just paint the mini 3 colours (2 layers each) and then apply a wash to the details/areas with shadow. Doing this as neatly as possible will yield surprisingly good results.

 raiden wrote:
so most of my army is primed or base coated. but I don't want to go any further than that due to the fact I Have tried before and I just completely ruin the models look. would most people play vs a primed/base coated army?

Couldn't care less as long as your force is otherwise WYSIWYG. As long as I know what I am facing, the painting is your problem and not mine.

I've been painting and playing for years and currently not a one of my armies is fully painted because I keep adding to them through the years. I get a good chuckle when some "armies must be painted" snob gets all uppity with me that my army isn't fully painted and he has a fully painted army, only has and ever will own one army and acts so superior. Just makes me laugh because I know that I have fully painted and sold off more armies than he will ever have...

Sure some people will flat out refuse to play you or expect you to use one of their painted armies instead of your chosen army for the "privilege" of having a game with them. They will oddly see nothing wrong with forcing you to bend to their demands if you want a game. Simplest response is "no thanks I'll play with someone a bit less anal about it" and move along...

Skriker

WYSIWYG is infinitely more important to me than painted miniatures, but both are preferred. Especially when playing someone new.

I wouldn't turn away a game against unpainted models. I would use it as an excuse if the guy seems to be a D-Bag, though.

 Ratius wrote:
But how far do you push it then?
What if someone showed up to play you with a Landraider but hadnt bothered to glue the side sponsons on ("too much hassle!") or all their tactical marines had no bolters glued on ("hadnt got the time!").

So you now have half glued models, non painted, non WYSIWYG (I hate that rule btw - just saying).

Where can we draw the line?

You draw the line at what matters most of playing a game:

State your codex and rules being used to make it totally clear what your army is and have an army that is built and easily identifiable on the table top. Occasional proxies are fine, but armies full of them are not. If all the marines with no weapons are bolter marines no harm and no foul for me. Start claiming some are bolter armed, some have a varying selection of special and heavy weapons and others are actually assault marines and we have a problem. WYSIWYG is there to improve the game and make it an easier experience for people to recognize and understand an opponent's army from across the table. Your opponent shouldn't have to waste all of their brain power in a game just trying to keep track of what your models really are. You have a resonsibility to make sure your opponent has a decent game too and WYSIWYG makes that happen. If every turn they get the, "Oh you forgot this space marine that looks exactly the same as all the others actually has a lascannon and I hit, penetrate and destroy your land raider" routine it ruins the game. Two fully painted armies on the table look fantastic, but without paint your opponent can still readily know what you are playing by you telling them the codex you are using and if your models are WYSIWYG.

Skriker

Yes, because otherwise I would never get a game in. Let's face it, some people just don't know how to paint, or they don't have the time. A job, family, other hobbies and commitments all make it tough for some players to put models together, much less paint them. For those players, as long as they try, I'll play 'em however they field the army- painted or unpainted.

The guys I don't want to play are the ones that come to the FLGS every week with a different grey/silver/white (Finecrap!) army and never paint ANYTHING. Army of the Weak Player is what I call them. I'd rather play the guy with a couple models painted every week then the guy that doesn't paint at all. At least the guy that paints is putting in the effort. The Army of the Weak Player is usually the hardcore metagamer that just read about the broken Screamerstar, or Tau 6x Riptide list, or the whatever broken list of the moment that was published somewhere on the internets.

For me, it's almost a respect thing. Don't expect me to respect you or your army when we play and I have a fully painted army and you don't. That's a harsh criticism to lay out, but it's the truth. Now, I'll also be the first to admit that I usually don't have a fully painted army, and it's sometimes a laziness thing on my part. Other times, it's a brand new model (like the recently released Centurion Devastators) that I want to get on the table ASAP to see what they can do. However, I'll get them painted within a week or two of release.

Tournaments? Fully painted all the way.

On the wysiwyg rule, I understand and like the basics of it, but the anal people who dictate that if you don't have a bolt pistol modeled on a marine you dont get it (something that comes with every freaking marine). But alas my group is so non wysiwyg that my friend who plays orks happens to have some choppa boyz that look strangely like black templar

I would play anyone painted or not. I paint my models, but it is extremely difficult for me to do, time issues, paint skill issues, interuption issues all get in the way of my painting time. I am slowly finishing my models, but it has been 9 years and I have about 2000 out of my 4000 points painted fully.

Bottom line, Paint or not come ready to play.

 Ratius wrote:

Painting is not for everyone. Anyone who says it is part of the Hobby is wrong. It's a part of THEIR hobby.

But how far do you push it then?
What if someone showed up to play you with a Landraider but hadnt bothered to glue the side sponsons on ("too much hassle!") or all their tactical marines had no bolters glued on ("hadnt got the time!").

So you now have half glued models, non painted, non WYSIWYG (I hate that rule btw - just saying).

Where can we draw the line?

I would play an opponent using cardboard circles for his units bases with no actual models on the bases, as long as he had a note card denoting the units name and stats that he put right behind the unit!

I have played against a guy that used a cardboard cutout of a Killa Kan (Or some ork, or space marine dreadnought thing can not remember which) that he got from the 2nd maybe 3rd ed set when they included it, so As long as the opponent has something to show where the units are, then ts all good.

I loath to play against a unpainted army, I can handle a squad or a unpainted tank if its primed. And its painted by the next game. But I will NEVER play against a 100% unpainted army, no matter the exuses

 Wardragoon wrote:
On the wysiwyg rule, I understand and like the basics of it, but the anal people who dictate that if you don't have a bolt pistol modeled on a marine you dont get it (something that comes with every freaking marine). But alas my group is so non wysiwyg that my friend who plays orks happens to have some choppa boyz that look strangely like black templar

A little off-topic, but I don't care about basic wargear like bolt pistols, grenades, and such.

Special issue/upgrade stuff, like melta guns, plasma guns, heavy weapons? Yes, have the right thing, please.

 kronk wrote:


Special issue/upgrade stuff, like melta guns, plasma guns, heavy weapons? Yes, have the right thing, please.

And thats the part I understand and like. granted occasionally I am guilty of this, but I am slowly getting the needed bits to convert everyone to where they should be (case in point in 5e my deathwing was all assault terminators so i painted a shoulderpad red on the termies that had Cyclones)

As long as it's clear and it's either something you're trying out and/or you're new to the army/game, I'm fine with it.

10 games in a row of "this melta is a flamer but this melta is a plasma" gets old. Really old.

 DeathReaper wrote:
I would play an opponent using cardboard circles for his units bases with no actual models on the bases, as long as he had a note card denoting the units name and stats that he put right behind the unit!

I have played against a guy that used a cardboard cutout of a Killa Kan (Or some ork, or space marine dreadnought thing can not remember which) that he got from the 2nd maybe 3rd ed set when they included it, so As long as the opponent has something to show where the units are, then ts all good.

I have a regular opponent who has tau. At an inopportune time he lost his job, right after his wife had their first child...:\ Understandably mini purchases became a distant second to the needs of the family. He wanted to play a big battle with his army, though, and asked if I minded him using paper army print outs for models/units. Didn't bother me in the least. They are still identifiable as the units they are and are the right height. So we played a good sized battle (2500 I believe) and he didn't have to use one of my armies to make it happen. Upped his enjoyment factor immensely.

When I was recovering from a lengthy illness I got used to painting solely in natural light next to the window. I painted up multiple armies during my recovery time AND built up every kit I had collected and had been waiting in the closet from the previous 10 years or so. Since I've been back to the working world my opportunity to paint with natural light has become practically non-existent. So trying to break the habit and hopefully get some painting done over the winter time when my charity event work tends to slow down a bit. Been working on making sure all the newer stuff I've gotten lately is primed and ready for paint. My big 3 chaos marine armies, with the exception of the latest pieces I've added, all have the base colors and highlighting done on every model and now need the detail work to happen. Thought that would speed up the process, but haven't done much painting since I got all of the armies to that point...

Skriker

 DeathReaper wrote:
I have played against a guy that used a cardboard cutout of a Killa Kan (Or some ork, or space marine dreadnought thing can not remember which) that he got from the 2nd maybe 3rd ed set when they included it, so As long as the opponent has something to show where the units are, then ts all good.

Funny thing is, because that came from a GW kit, it's technically a GW model in a similar vein to the old, tiny Terminators.

I've seen the cardboard Kan used, trying to work out the side arc for a slice of cardboard is hilarious.