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Alright so this is a topic that has crossed the section of my local game store many MANY times on the Pros and Cons of both Las- small arms ( Rifles , Pistols carbines ect. ) and Kinetic small arms being your normal Lead ( or steel ) spitting awesomeness that we all love the Quandary that comes forth is the Effectivness between Auto- and Las- Guns and the advantages and disadvantages in both , i personally am in the process of converting all of my Guardsmen to have Autoguns because hell they seem ultimately more badass . But here im going to talk about the pros and cons of both and hopefully you guys can add and debate this topic .



Las-guns ( Typical Rifle Varient we are assuming standard Varients )


Pros -

- extensive ammunition supply
,- this is contributed to the fact that the power-packs can last you though an entire campaign and in a dire emergancy can be recharged in a fire

-Magazine size
- while i am not exactly sure how large the Standard Autogun magazine is i would assume between 35-45 Rounds where as a Lasgun holds anywhere between 60 ( low end ) to 160 shots (high end of the spectrum ) this combine with the fact that several Magazines can last a trooper much longer in the field in a sustained battle provide a critical advantage

- Logistics ---
combine with the possiblity that 5 or so magazines can last a soldier ( if hes lucky ) though an entire campaign which makes for a much more reliable way to maintain ammunition supplies to troops when supply lines are indeed shaky at best ( when reliant on Warp Travel Shipping )

Atmospheric conditions -----
While las weapons are not affected by Wind , Bullet drop ect allowing for not having to Train troops on how to account for said issues


- Mechanical Reliability
--- Now im not to sure the maintenance that goes into las-guns so i could be brutally wrong and please correct me if that is so . -- from what i have read and understand lasguns require very little in the way of cleaning the primary requirements being clearing the barrel , focusing mirror for the laser and the Magazine/ battery feed which in terms of a firearm er... las arm ... is actually very little in comparison to the amount of moving parts needed to be cleaned in order to keep the weapon functional



Cons ---

Ammunition types ----
While an autogun or other similar projectile firearm can simply switch magazines to an ammunition type suited to the problem ( HE . AP . API ( Armor Piercing Incendiary ) and HEAP ( High-Explosive-Armor-Piercing ) ) a lasgun is extremely limited to the types of ammunition it can fire , for Hot-shot packs you either expend the entire magazine to fire a single high power shot ( as is used in Long-Las Varients ) or in the case of Automatic or semi-automatic variants is required to be attached to a Backpack mounted Powercell in order to supply the weapon , this setup requires a large amount of maintenance and specialized training in order to keep them functioning at peak performance . This in terms of flexibility greatly reduces the ability of the common soldier



Stopping Power -
In 40k fluff it is suggested that lasguns have little to no recoil , and as per Newtons law stating that for each reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction , the "beam" from a lasgun is never portrayed as having any sort of stopping power in comparison to solid slug projectiles this could be a critical draw back when fighting enemies that in the face of any kinetic projectile would be stopped or at least slowed would simply shrug off las-fire . This is critical in that the basic trooper would get extra seconds needed (hopefully ) from a weapon that had physical "kick" to it rather then something that was a simply beam of light


Rate of Fire -
While lasguns are known to have fully-automatic function it is described that the shot-per-shot power decreases dramatically and this rapidly drains the power pack , while the Rate of fire is important a lasgun sacrifices MUCH needed power to simply increase the RoF where as an Autogun or other projectile weapon is not sacrificing shot-per-shot power by going to fully automatic , while both drain the power-pack/magazine i do believe that despite the lasguns superior magazine size the autogun would make a mucher larger dent in an enemy

Armor Penetration -
ah the Famous downfall of the simply lasgun its lack of ability to pierce any armor , even that piece of leather worn by the creepy Slannash cultist ( joke )
regardless in fluff and in many books ( ill agree isn't exactly a consistant source ) Las-guns to posses the ability to slice though standard imperial Body armor its effect is greatly dimished when anyone decides they want to wear something with even a remote heat-dissipation ability this effect is greatly diminished and even in some cases almost entirely lost ( mainly looking at space marine adamantium and similar materials ) while an Autogun firing simple Steel Jacketed ammunition ( i personally have put a 7.62x54mm steel jacketed round though a 1.5 inch steel plate 9/10 times it penetrated ) would be much more capable of dealing with armor that was ballistically rated armor as well as heat rated armor - Mainly due to that when a ceramic plate ( for current body armor i can only assume that a similar standard would apply with futuristic armor and bullet propelants ) the impact from the round will most likely crack or shatter the plate rendering it ineffective , this is mainly solved by having multiple overlapping plates to disperse energy over a large area so the plates do not become over stressed and crack . Alot of my Argument will fall to the " Its science fiction " or " its 40k no reason here !! " However i can only speculate as to the different advantages and disadvantages at this time --- anyway back on track i do believe that the lasguns lack of ability to defeat very simple heat absorbent armor is its ultimate downfall here



Damage to Target ( high speculated ) -- So it is commonly accepted that a las-bolt when it strikes causes a mini-explosion as the liquid in the cells surrounding the impact site instantly boil from the head and explode causing a suprisingly large amount of damage - this would be awesome if the wound didn't mostly cauterize upon impact as well as leaving behind very little pain due to the fact that when the nerves are exposed to flash heat such as that , the die and are sealed before they can transmit any signals of pain to the brain . Further more the cauterizing effect also makes it impossible for the victim to bleed out enough to cause shock , where as the shock that does ensue will most likely be from the mental mindset and seeing the injury , this is all fine and dandy when fighting other humans but when engaging a foe that feels no pain or is on a combat "high " ( Orks ect ) the shock won't set in and lacking of bleeding caused by the wound will make it extremely unlikely to render such an opponent incapacitated by a las-shot . This brings up the point where Slugs from an Autogun would be prefered As when the slug hits , the round entering first would have an immediate entry wound afterward the round would ( usually) begin to tumble after the primary expansion in which case Fragments break off from the round , this causes massive internal hemorrhaging and after several rounds could very well incapacitate a larger opponent though blood loss , as the shot itself may not be felt by the victim they will not be able to ignore the fact that their blood is now pouring onto the ground . granted this process will be very different depending on the Size , strength , and endurance of varying opponents but at least its something compared to our auto-cauterizeing friend






Autogun - ( for the basis of this we are going to assume 7.62x54mm steel jacketed rounds and a 35 round Magazine )


Pros-

Highly Adaptable

While a lasgun in order to fit some roles will require an entirely additional system (hellguns hotshots ect.) to change out the requirement for an autogun would simply require a change of ammunition in order to fit different roles , this combine with the ability to change out parts rather quickly to convert from a carbine to rifle or visa-versa would on a very basic level would only require a change of Stock or barrel length - while this may seem like a very small point it is actually extremely important when serving in a protracted campaign an unit that uses Long barrel rifles could switch to Carbine length rifles when transitioning from large open areas to very dense urban combat zones is actually a very large advantage that could contribute to the survival of the average soldier and in turn make operations involving them much more successful


Stopping Power

While a single Round may not have the necessary power to stop a foe in his tracks , a burst of several rounds would certainly be enough to stagger an opponent even if only for a moment which could very well be critical to safe a soldiers life in a close encounter with an enemy combatant . While this again may seem extremely minor in the scope of things this is fundamentally important as the basic rifleman could very well be critical to a mission be it marking targets for an airstrike with smoke or simply holding a mission critical area . When dealing with larger opponents who would remain unaffected by traditional las-weaponry




Mechanical Reliability -

while not nearly as much so as the humble lasgun however i do believe it deserves a mention as the primary parts that need to be cleaned are the Firing assembly ( firing pen , ejection port , magazine port and feed , charging assembly ect. ) Barrel and Gas assembly would require minimal cleaning depending on the design of the firearm


damage to Target -

While i have already discussed the fact that a standard round upon will more then likely begin to tumble when it hits the target and with expansion from rounds with very rudimentary hollow-point shape ( very easily can be done by hand with a a file or drill bit ) with that expansion comes fragmentation which will cause large amounts of internal damage from a single round , while this may not be nearly enough to stop a large opponent several rounds ( our several hundred if firing en mass like the guard do ) not to mention on targets that are hit will have to survive losing tremendous amounts of blood after several rounds impact the organic tissue , while larger opponents ( such as Ork Nobs and Tyranid Warriors ) would most likely not have an immediate affect due to the physiology of said creatures however lesser ones ( normal Orks and genestealers ) that usually shrug off las-fire would indeed be halted by several rounds piercing their hide/armor which in comparison would certainly increase the amount of Guardsmen surviving encounters with said creatures


Armor Penetration

As this has been covered before i will only go into slight detail - Sum of the point is while las-bolts may be outright ignored by a space marine ( traitor and loyalist ) due to the extremely head absorbent properties of both adamantium and cremite ( they armor re-entry capable vehicles with it for god sake lol ) I however think that in the face of Ballistic projectiles would be much more likely to eventually cause stress fractures in the power armor allowing for further concentrated fire to indeed begin chipping substantial portions away , while i do not believe this alone could sway this to be advantageous to the Autogun i would say this leads to my argument for Ballistic projectiles working better against standard infantry protection . As some enemies do use normal steel plates as armor ( Orks , cultist ect.) and that a 7.62x54 does posses the ability to easily penetrate such protection it would fall mainly down to an orks sheer willpower which in the face of suffering internal bleeding on multiple injurys while they are tough eventually these would catch up and kill the creature .


Cons

Ammunition -- As compared to the lasgun logistics would be an absolute nightmare , supplying millions of tons of Beans, Bullets and band-aids to soldiers on a campaign is a hard task , but on a scale of a galactic conflict , i'd say nearly impossible without more stable travel though the warp . So Unless the guardsmen are fighting on a world that manufactures Bullets instead of Las-batterys 90% of the supplies these guard forces use are going to have to be brought in from Navel vessels , a characteristic relatively unheard of in the guard to my knowledge , this also would mostly invalidate the concept of having multiple ammunition types ( HE , API , AP , HEAP ) as supplying multiple types of ammunition in addition to the tons of munitions already required by the guard is a duanting task , not impossible but extremely dependent on supplys brought with them


Atmospheric conditions -
As is the normal thing with bullets is they don't magically go in a straight line forever , there is an amazing force called gravity which has something amazing called bullet drop , over longer distances the drop increases and the round eventually hits the dirt at some point , Now this is in perfect conditions , Range is only shortned by other conditions such as Wind , Heavy rain temperature ( will explain shortly ) and in some cases depending on other conditions on the planet ( snow storms , corrosive enviroment ect, ) now back to temperature i said i would explain , proportionally higher temperatures will allow a round to travel further and faster as the heat makes combustion of the powder inside a Bullet quicker and more even combustion of the powder ( longest shot in the world was made by two canadian snipers who left their .50 cal ammo in the sun in Afghanstan before firing ) where as a cold environment will actually make the combustion take longer ( not by much ) and the powder will not ignite evenly making range shorter and bullet drop quicker ( to my knowledge i have yet to go to sniper school going in 3 months ) a good example of this is during the winter war in Stalingrad during WW2 Artillery actually had decreased range and somewhat common mis-fires as the powder inside shells would not ignite when the primer was struck
Now im not sure if this is a good example because its very possible that new advances in chemicals for Powder render these problems no longer an issue .



Jamming , Squibs , misfires ect.
- While a las-gun can not physically jam as there is no moving parts ( aside from mag release and trigger to my knowledge) and there is not solid projectile for a squib to take place ( when the round ignites and propels halfway down the barrel and actually turn blocking the barrel , pain in the ass to clear ) a Las-gun has already proven superior in these manners , a Jam is vastly easier to clear is it usually involves simply pulling the charging handle , clearing said obstruction and loading another round into the chamber , this could take seconds which are potentially vital in any combat situation , a Squib on the other-hand can range from rendering the weapon inoperable until it is cleared to actually causing the weapon to explode if more rounds are fired unintentionally ( think firing on burst or automatic ) This is extremely hazardous because you created a small fragmentation weapon in enough to wound and even kill those in close proximity , this is only increased dramatically if you are firing High Explosive or High-Explosive-Armor-Piercing (HEAP) as when the explosive core impacts the round infront of it during a squib it has a good chance of setting off the explosive charge


Recoil -

while this is part of the advantages it is also a disadvantage , in the hands of an untrained operator recoil can be a small inconvinence to outright dangerous to the forces nearby as an untrained trooper unable to contain the recoil could unleash a burst into his own men. While a lasgun has absolutely no to minimal recoil even when firing fully automatic this presents us with the issue of firing a 7.62x54mm cartridge ( approx .308) on fully automatic where as a larger male ( personally im 6'1 and a trained Soldier ) has difficulty firing on automatic with said cartridge and keeping it pointing in a safe direction ( i go by 15 degree arcs from holding the rifle 90 parallel about to your body ) firing with any accuracy on fully automatic is entirely out of the question , unless of course your target is 10 feet tall and standing in Bayonet range and you happen to not be changing magazines -- in terms of managing recoil , semi-automatic and burst fire options are the only two that would be resonable at trying to engage targets at a long distance



Magazine Size -

As GW has stated that the autoguns are indeed " Caseless" ( im not even sure if they know what that means lol ) and that the magazines hold between 35 and 45 rounds depending on magazine type ect, ( Straight , bannana , drum ect. ) this puts them at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to comparing the magazine ,,um battery capacity of a lasgun ( 160 shots in some cases and 45 in others depending on power setting ) this would require a large amount of ammunition to be carried onto the battlefield by each individual trooper for an extended deployment on the battlefield - I.E my grandfather in vietnam had to carry nearly 35 magazines for his M-16 ( which 5.56 is actually a fairly light weight round in comparison ) for a two week patrol action and that wasn't even for prolonged combat as the Guard would more then likely face . This in terms of a Guardsmen would add extreme weight to his combat gear




for those of you who suffered though this wall of text , i Salute you o7 , and please commit below any arguments you may have for either side , please be intelligent in your arguments and be willing to accept when your wrong .


Thanks !












Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone at all ?

A typo in your OP-- it's weaponry, not weaponary. It struck me as even more odd, since you spelled it right later on in the post.

Sorry typed that up on my phone , but seriously that's the only reason you commented ? Really dude ?

i feel they both have their merits (which is why vets get shotties free =p). you CAN get lots of nasty stuff fromconventional firearms but the logistics of supplying the grunts detracts from that. so for grunts i would say no but for units like vets who would have spent time in the field learning the strengths and weaknesses of there opponents i could see where ammo variety would play a greater part. But the imperium really doesnt need to supply those troops with them either as they could probably just pick one up of some cultist ( just dont let the chaplain or commisar see, also if it starts talking/bleeding/glowing get rid of it) giving the vet a weapon that he can use and cook up nasty rounds for without detracting from imperial supplies.

I think Lasguns can be disabled/destroyed with super-strong electromagnetic field, which generates unwanted currents in internal wires. It may fry some components, making it useless...
Imagine this at global scale... Entire IG army fethed up.
But I haven't heard about any cases of electronic warfare in 40k. (Maybe it's because I havent read not enough books.)

Auroguns are most likely immune.

Thanks for a very interesting read!

In the 41st millenium the IoM probably values resources like guns and space transports more than human lives which lead to the conclusion that lasguns are superior when viewed from the IoM's point of view since they are easier to opperate and require less logistics whereas the guardsman wuold probably value an autogun more

Just one thing to the penetration/stopping power of the lasgun:
Keep in mind that it is an energy weapon that uses heat to damage its target. Forget the recoil/Newton's law thing, because as an energy weapon the energy transference is not kinetic but heat-based and not a one-off event but a continuous projection.

Also, it must be noted that WH40k scale armour is super-durable. By all accounts the humble IG flak armour should have the protection rating of a HUMVEE armour plate. 33% chance to counter a 15mm machine gun round (Heavy Stubber)? That's awesome! They have the wet-wc paper feel only because the weapons are even more powerful (everyone is running around with an automatic RPG launcher aka boltgun and such).

Also, las weapons don't cauterize the wound. Boiled water can't set stuff on fire y'know .

On the weather side of things, las weapons would be affected by humidity, cloud and any particulates. Also while las weapons won't jam as such, any build up of muck on the optics will affect the weapon, potentially leading to it setting itself on fire

And Caseless refers to a round where there is no brass casing to hold the propellant behind the bullet. The propellant is moulded into a solid lump with the bullet embedded inside. Key reference is the Heckler and Koch G11. Its lighter, but without super magic space materials can suffer from durability issues as the propellant is not protected by the casing.

The tricky thing about such comparisons is that the details depend heavily upon where you look. A lot of authors have their own ideas, and 40k grants considerable artistic license, so essentially you can fluff your las- and autoguns how you want.

I will, however, comment based on GW's original material:

- Ammunition size of an autogun magazine is given as 30 rounds in "Inquisitor"
- Lasguns suffer in accuracy and power over long range due to particles in atmosphere diffusing the beam
- Lasguns actually do have a kinetic impact as the rapid extension of supraheated materials of the impact zone causes a small explosion (perhaps unexpectedly, the science between this actually seems sound)
- In GW's material, automatic fire does not drain the chargepack any faster than if you'd fire the same amount of blasts in single shot. In this, it acts exactly the same as an autogun. However, not all lasguns actually have this functionality; in "Inquisitor", only the Necromunda-pattern is capable of autofire
- Then again, not all autoguns may have automatic fire as well (see modern day assault rifles)
- Simultaneously, the Triplex-pattern (mentioned in both Inquisitor and the 5E Guard Codex) includes a variable charge setting that allows single shots to be increased in power, essentially acting like ad-hoc special ammo, without the need to actually switch magazines (however, the Triplex is said to be "highly sought after" for this feature, so this seems to be a rare trait)
- Standard lasgun blasts have a similar damage profile as standard autogun rounds. In Inquisitor, a single shot has a ~17% chance to punch through Marine-grade power armour and cause an injury to the wearer - this is in line with PA fluff from Codex Angels of Death, which personally I would hold to higher standards than "Hollywood" novels with protagonists and plot armour
- Whilst las hits do cauterise the wound and thus largely prevent blood loss, the 6E rulebook's section on "las wound dressing" in the back mentions that the main cause of death of victims not immediately slain by a hit is rapid swelling around the impact site followed by widespread failures of bodily functions
- Mechanic adaptability is no inherent advantage of autoguns. A folding stock, for example, could technically be a feature of both autoguns as well as lasguns, although existing artworks and miniatures suggest that such traits are not popular in the Imperium of M41, for either weapon
- Autoguns can fire caseless as well as cased rounds depending on model; this portrayal has changed fairly early in the fluff, similar to how bolters fired caseless rounds in 1E but ever since 2E use cased projectiles

Thank you everyone who has responded

- on the topic about recoil I was pretty exhausted last night so that would attribute as to why it doesn't make all that much sense in some areas , but recoil does have an equation to literal stopping power and as the lasgun has no recoil it would also have no stopping power .

As for damage _>>> in every source I've looked into the explosion takes place and the wound almost instantly cauterizes After the flesh is vaporized , so yes the water would instantly boil but with the extreme heat and the fact that it vaporizes flesh it would certainly cause the water to turn to steam - granted this process happens in milli-seconds

Armor - I saw mention about the durability of Flak armor , that is comparing to Modern propellants and rounds , it would be safe to assume that propellant technology would have advanced as well as the material that the physical rounds are made from which could overall have much greater penetration - a real world example of this -
The first rifle to use cartridges and a bolt-action design was built in Prussia in the mid -1800's If I recall correctly , compare a modern round from the exact same caliber and the modern one would have high power due to advances made in only 160 years , now imagine this stretched over thousands --- just some speculation



->>> early it was mentioned that about how las, auto guns are better in different situations so would it be safe to say that the lasgun is a better weapon Strategically and the auto gun is better tactically ?

Based on the contents of the old Guard accessories sprue, folding stock las guns are routinely issued to tank crews, so they can't be that uncommon.

 Flinty wrote:
Key reference is the Heckler and Koch G11. Its lighter, but without super magic space materials can suffer from durability issues as the propellant is not protected by the casing.

Are you kidding? The H&K G11 is an engineering marvel powered by clockwork and gypsy magic! You can't go further than that gun!

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Key reference is the Heckler and Koch G11. Its lighter, but without super magic space materials can suffer from durability issues as the propellant is not protected by the casing.

Are you kidding? The H&K G11 is an engineering marvel powered by clockwork and gypsy magic! You can't go further than that gun!

Watching the 3 shot burst fire is awesome

For more info, and links to video footage:
http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=23:the-g11-caseless-military-rifle&catid=11:rare-prototypes&Itemid=5


[edit] - the video links are busted, but its all on youtube

 Lynata wrote:
The tricky thing about such comparisons is that the details depend heavily upon where you look. A lot of authors have their own ideas, and 40k grants considerable artistic license, so essentially you can fluff your las- and autoguns how you want.

I will, however, comment based on GW's original material:

- Ammunition size of an autogun magazine is given as 30 rounds in "Inquisitor"
- Lasguns suffer in accuracy and power over long range due to particles in atmosphere diffusing the beam
- Lasguns actually do have a kinetic impact as the rapid extension of supraheated materials of the impact zone causes a small explosion (perhaps unexpectedly, the science between this actually seems sound)
- In GW's material, automatic fire does not drain the chargepack any faster than if you'd fire the same amount of blasts in single shot. In this, it acts exactly the same as an autogun. However, not all lasguns actually have this functionality; in "Inquisitor", only the Necromunda-pattern is capable of autofire
- Then again, not all autoguns may have automatic fire as well (see modern day assault rifles)
- Simultaneously, the Triplex-pattern (mentioned in both Inquisitor and the 5E Guard Codex) includes a variable charge setting that allows single shots to be increased in power, essentially acting like ad-hoc special ammo, without the need to actually switch magazines (however, the Triplex is said to be "highly sought after" for this feature, so this seems to be a rare trait)
- Standard lasgun blasts have a similar damage profile as standard autogun rounds. In Inquisitor, a single shot has a ~17% chance to punch through Marine-grade power armour and cause an injury to the wearer - this is in line with PA fluff from Codex Angels of Death, which personally I would hold to higher standards than "Hollywood" novels with protagonists and plot armour
- Whilst las hits do cauterise the wound and thus largely prevent blood loss, the 6E rulebook's section on "las wound dressing" in the back mentions that the main cause of death of victims not immediately slain by a hit is rapid swelling around the impact site followed by widespread failures of bodily functions
- Mechanic adaptability is no inherent advantage of autoguns. A folding stock, for example, could technically be a feature of both autoguns as well as lasguns, although existing artworks and miniatures suggest that such traits are not popular in the Imperium of M41, for either weapon
- Autoguns can fire caseless as well as cased rounds depending on model; this portrayal has changed fairly early in the fluff, similar to how bolters fired caseless rounds in 1E but ever since 2E use cased projectiles

Extremely good points , however I would argue that stating that auto guns posses 30 round magazines isn't exactly a good argument as auto guns like lasgun a vary widly between models however you do raise excellant points on the disadvantages of both , for the sake of consistency I am encompassing novels, and the GW works as well as forge world as GW to me st least has proven inconsistent at best when it comes to some areas of fluff -

Kasrkin229 wrote:early it was mentioned that about how las, auto guns are better in different situations so would it be safe to say that the lasgun is a better weapon Strategically and the auto gun is better tactically ?

That sounds like a viable point to make.
Although it would depend on specifics ... for example, I'd regard a Triplex lasgun as flat-out better than an autogun, since you don't need to actually load any "special ammo", you simply flip a switch and suddenly your next shot has more power. Greater shot capacity also means that you'll require fewer reloads in the midst of battle, and the gun is less likely to cease functioning in the worst moment imaginable.

In Inquisitor and Necromunda, the primary reason for why some people love to run around with autoguns was the psychological effect of their rather loud discharge, and the fact that there's no shortage of bullets in the local Hive. It tends to be the ganger's weapon of choice.

Kasrkin229 wrote:however I would argue that stating that auto guns posses 30 round magazines isn't exactly a good argument as auto guns like lasgun a vary widly between models

Indeed, especially as you could also use drum mags etc - it would probably be best to regard those numbers as averages. It still implies that autoguns have a notably smaller magazine though.

Kasrkin229 wrote:for the sake of consistency I am encompassing novels, and the GW works as well as forge world as GW to me st least has proven inconsistent at best when it comes to some areas of fluff

The more sources you adopt into your debate, the less consistency you will have, though. "Many cooks spoil the broth."
I can only caution against such an approach, and recommend deciding on a single origin. Said single origin, however, of course does not have to be GW.

Well I was reading up on the Tripex and as you increase shot power you decrease the amount of shots I'm the battery (naturally ) but can anyone find a reference as to how more powerful the Tripex is compared to other lasguns ?

And looking at The consistency aspect it would seem better to perhaps use forge world and GW ?

When I did my write up on magazine size I did not include the possibility of drum magazines (I did but not largely ) however drum magazines dramatically increase malfunction rate as there is no time for the weapon to cool between magazines ( ie when reloading ) as the drums have a much larger capacity they would overheat faster


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 Flinty wrote:
On the weather side of things, las weapons would be affected by humidity, cloud and any particulates. Also while las weapons won't jam as such, any build up of muck on the optics will affect the weapon, potentially leading to it setting itself on fire

And Caseless refers to a round where there is no brass casing to hold the propellant behind the bullet. The propellant is moulded into a solid lump with the bullet embedded inside. Key reference is the Heckler and Koch G11. Its lighter, but without super magic space materials can suffer from durability issues as the propellant is not protected by the casing.

Oh I know what case less is but I doubt the writers at GW do ,

 Kasrkin229 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flinty wrote:
On the weather side of things, las weapons would be affected by humidity, cloud and any particulates. Also while las weapons won't jam as such, any build up of muck on the optics will affect the weapon, potentially leading to it setting itself on fire

And Caseless refers to a round where there is no brass casing to hold the propellant behind the bullet. The propellant is moulded into a solid lump with the bullet embedded inside. Key reference is the Heckler and Koch G11. Its lighter, but without super magic space materials can suffer from durability issues as the propellant is not protected by the casing.

Oh I know what case less is but I doubt the writers at GW do ,

D'oh totally misread your post... apologies, no offence intended!

Haha that's fine , glad your throwing valuable input toward the debate

Kasrkin229 wrote:Well I was reading up on the Tripex and as you increase shot power you decrease the amount of shots I'm the battery (naturally ) but can anyone find a reference as to how more powerful the Tripex is compared to other lasguns ?

I can only offer the stats from GW's Inquisitor game:

For comparison, to injure a Space Marine in that game you'd have to cause more than 10 points of Damage. This seems roughly in line with both the 40k TT rules as well as the C:AoD fluff.
All in all, the weapon profiles seem very circumstancial, each having their niche, which is probably exactly why they were written this way.

Comparing an overcharged Triplex to an autogun with Manstopper rounds, you'd arrive at 2d6+5 versus 3d6+2 Damage, for an average of 12 vs 12.5, with the autogun offering a greater maximum damage but the lasgun a more reliable performance. That being said, the autogun can do burst fire, whereas the Triplex (unlike the Necromunda) cannot.
Maybe there is a lasgun that combines the features of the Triplex and the Necromunda into one, but if there is, it's not listed.

It should be pointed out, however, that these stats too are obviously not a consistent thing, thanks to 40k allowing for a lot of interpretation. For example, in FFG's 40k RPGs, las- and autoguns do feature a similar general damage profile, but - depending on the exact game you play - either feature fewer differences between the patterns, or have every single las weapon (even pistols) have a charge slider (this was not intended at first, but the players were lobbying for this feature on the forums, and the designers ultimately relented), or none at all (because the charge slider first showed up in "Black Crusade", back then mentioned as a tech-heretical modification by cultists, only to become a standard feature for all Imperial troops in "Only War" ... yay consistency!).

Kasrkin229 wrote:And looking at The consistency aspect it would seem better to perhaps use forge world and GW ?

Even then you're bound to run into contradictions, for that's still two different teams of writers.
I could only shake my head when, in the Siege of Vraks books, I had to read about hotshot las rounds ricocheting off Marine power armour. Ricocheting!
Not to mention the twisted treatment of the SoB and neglection of their Codex fluff, but that's for another thread.

Kasrkin229 wrote:When I did my write up on magazine size I did not include the possibility of drum magazines (I did but not largely ) however drum magazines dramatically increase malfunction rate as there is no time for the weapon to cool between magazines ( ie when reloading ) as the drums have a much larger capacity they would overheat faster

Yeah, it's a mixed bag! I remember drum magazines actually increasing jam chances in Inquisitor, too.
Although there it was a feature only used for bolt weapons. I'm just assuming it could be available for autoguns as well.

 Flinty wrote:
On the weather side of things, las weapons would be affected by humidity, cloud and any particulates. Also while las weapons won't jam as such, any build up of muck on the optics will affect the weapon, potentially leading to it setting itself on fire

And Caseless refers to a round where there is no brass casing to hold the propellant behind the bullet. The propellant is moulded into a solid lump with the bullet embedded inside. Key reference is the Heckler and Koch G11. Its lighter, but without super magic space materials can suffer from durability issues as the propellant is not protected by the casing.

Very important considering the dust and debris associated with warfare. The air is never clear.

I hadn't actually considered that , almost embarrassing that I forgot , about battlefield debris affecting both weapons platforms , I personally believe the auto gun would perform better in that situation

As for the Tripex vs auto gun part from what you've described it would seem a lasgun and auto gun can inflict similar types of damage of both are using upgrades types of ammunition (man stopper = hydro shock ? )

Kasrkin229 wrote:]I hadn't actually considered that , almost embarrassing that I forgot , about battlefield debris affecting both weapons platforms , I personally believe the auto gun would perform better in that situation

I do, too.
I think I would sum it up as the autogun being more resistant to stress, whereas the lasgun requires less maintenance. An autogun still has a chance to just jam in the midst of battle due to all the moving parts and oil etc.

In short, the lasgun is more reliable until it stops working, whereas with autoguns you may run into complications more often but they are often easier/quicker to fix (such as simply clearing a fouled round from the chamber).

Kasrkin229 wrote:As for the Tripex vs auto gun part from what you've described it would seem a lasgun and auto gun can inflict similar types of damage of both are using upgrades types of ammunition (man stopper = hydro shock ? )

Similar in severity, perhaps? Don't ask me which is easier to treat, though - the lasgun wound fluff in the 6E rulebook sounded suitably dangerous, but I have almost zero medical experience.

I recall we had at least one paramedic on dakka, maybe we'll yet get some professional comments regarding such details!

Well I've been asking some of the medics in my platoon and they all have agreed that cauterized wounds are much easier to treat on the field where as they are more difficult to treat in surgery because the cells have been Burned shut requiring skin grafts and such to help it heal , where as a bullet is more immediately threatening but is much more easy to recover from due to being able to effectively bandage the wound


- I'm no medic but that's a rough summery of what I picked up when they started discussing it so if there are any things not true blame it on me not understanding them lol

Oh, the cauterisation part, sure, but what about the swelling? That's the threatening bit, as supposedly this can lead to the body just "shutting down" ... depending on where you've been hit for how many deciseconds.
Not sure if there is any medical science behind this, but that's what it says in the 6E book, and it sounds somewhat plausible.

Cool that you have such a ready source of information to tap, though!

Lasweapons wouldn't cauterize to begin with. It would cause wounds that violently explode as blood gets superheated. Anything weak enough to merely cauterize isn't likely to kill someone.

I'm just repeating what it says in the book.

It can possibly be argued away by the high temperature not dropping immediately, so the cauterisation effect would occur after the explosive expansion (which is over within the blink of an eye).
No, I have no idea whether that's scientifically or medically plausible, but it sounds good enough in my head to accept it as an excuseexplanation.

Areas away from the actual point of impact may be heated slowly enough that the water doesn't vaporize immediately and you get a scorching of the tissue.

That's certainly possible, I'm really glad that you guys are responding to this , now for sniper rifles what would be the advantages and disadvantages of a long-las to an Average sniper rifle firing slugs

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
That's certainly possible, I'm really glad that you guys are responding to this , now for sniper rifles what would be the advantages and disadvantages of a long-las to an Average sniper rifle firing slugs

Las weapons are proably considerably quieter

I would argue not , as lasguns of any type are always noted to make a distinctive "crack" as the Air ionizes around the bolt , which could be quite loud , a Rifle firing Bullets can use a suppressor which disperses the gas to make the normally explosive sound of the gas exiting the barrel little more then a loud cough as the gas escapes much more slowly . Las weapons in no accounts have I ever heard can be silenced