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Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






I bought the DZC starter set and have got a couple of games in as both UCM and Scourge with double force allocations ( a mate bought the starter as well so we combined mats and forces.)

Somehow the game is lacking a certain something, be it the fragility of units, the general lack of tactical mobility (being unable to shoot after dropping really kills the 'drop' aspect of the game) or the general inability of infantry to be dislodged once entrenched in a building. This may be a problem due to -the restricted scope of unit- I miss the list building aspect of 40k - or the general lack of competitiveness/opponents I don't find it quite as fun as 40k?

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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

We felt this way about infantry at first, too- but once folks get the hang of the game, you can decimate infantry in a building.

The scourge flame tank, the fact that so many scourge units have demolisher, the fact that anything hits a building a 2+, so even their AA tanks can lay into them... my friend knocked down a large (30 HP) building on my firstborns in a single turn with Scourge shooting!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/24 19:47:00


 
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






Infantry aren't the only problem with the ruleset; in general it feels too static and one-dimensional. Once you take out his AA you can snowball quite hard with your aircraft units, and there isn't a response.

Dropships are largely obsolescent after the first or second turn.

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Civil War Re-enactor





Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Once you take out his AA you can snowball quite hard with your aircraft units, and there isn't a response.

This sounds an awful lot like 40K though.

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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






Well in 40k you can at least snap fire, in Dropzone you literally cannot shoot at any aircraft with ground weapons.

It might be a limitation of the starter set rather than a reflection of the gameplay though.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





Saratoga Springs, NY

Well I guess that's some of the realism of the game. Other than specialized shoulder launched missiles there's not much you can shoot at an aircraft, even a helicopter, that would have the range and damage to do anything to it.

I'm no expert but I bet that once you started playing bigger games the dropships would be more important. "oh, I won this battle over here. Let's move the troops over here were they're more needed"

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BrianDavion wrote:
Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.


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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator






 dementedwombat wrote:
Well I guess that's some of the realism of the game. Other than specialized shoulder launched missiles there's not much you can shoot at an aircraft, even a helicopter, that would have the range and damage to do anything to it.

I'm no expert but I bet that once you started playing bigger games the dropships would be more important. "oh, I won this battle over here. Let's move the troops over here were they're more needed"


Maybe, but the day a game allows me to do this



I'd take that over realism. Though on topic I get the point, small arms fire isn't exactly efficient, and once a fire fight was over you wouldn't leave troops cooling their heals guarding bodies, you'd shift them to where they could do the most good as soon as you're able.

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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






 dementedwombat wrote:
Well I guess that's some of the realism of the game. Other than specialized shoulder launched missiles there's not much you can shoot at an aircraft, even a helicopter, that would have the range and damage to do anything to it.

I'm no expert but I bet that once you started playing bigger games the dropships would be more important. "oh, I won this battle over here. Let's move the troops over here were they're more needed"


The problem being that units you move by dropship can't act the turn they disembark. You'd always be better off just moving them normally and firing on the way than missing a turn of shooting whilst embarked on the dropship.

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Ghastly Grave Guard





UK

Considering how dull 40k is its a surprise someone finds DZC uncompelling. Possibly you are too stuck in the gw mindset. Have you thoroughly read the rules properly cos it seems you are missing some points. Do you just use the two boxes, have you added the required command vehicles, have you used command cards etc?
   
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Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
 dementedwombat wrote:
Well I guess that's some of the realism of the game. Other than specialized shoulder launched missiles there's not much you can shoot at an aircraft, even a helicopter, that would have the range and damage to do anything to it.

I'm no expert but I bet that once you started playing bigger games the dropships would be more important. "oh, I won this battle over here. Let's move the troops over here were they're more needed"


The problem being that units you move by dropship can't act the turn they disembark. You'd always be better off just moving them normally and firing on the way than missing a turn of shooting whilst embarked on the dropship.

This simply isn't true! I could go into more depth, but am on a phone. Mostly, I think you're mostly making way to many assumptions after limited games, likely against opponents who also don't know the possible strategies yet.

Also note that infantry can do combined fire at an aircraft, if you're desperate.
   
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Waaagh! Warbiker



wales

I couldnt agree more with ritides if you allow units to shoot after disembarking the game just becomes a game about who gets Alpha strike in instead of a really tactical game.

currently playing dropzone commander, battlegroup and gorkamorka  
   
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Skillful Swordsman




Thornton - Cleveleys UK

I have just come over from 40k and got into DZC. I looked into the background first and the scourge ticked all my boxes. Had my first game yesterday with my little brother playing ucm (we were a little slow as he has never wargamed and I'm trying not to mix up 40k with DZC) the game went right down to the wire and my scourge just edged it!! Our forces were really evenly matched!! My little bro enjoyed it and I loved it too. I'm now busy painting up my scourge and have my eyes on a desolator!!!
   
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Pious Warrior Priest




UK

You just have to think a bit more with it is all.

40k games are mainly won during the army list writing stage.
   
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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






Yes and no, but the lack of Dropzone players and models means it hard to get to the stage where list-building matters in DZC.

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Brigadier General






Chicago

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Yes and no, but the lack of Dropzone players and models means it hard to get to the stage where list-building matters in DZC.


The desire for list-building to matter might be the root of your non-enjoyment.

Many wargamers and wargame designers find the List-building focus of 40k to be a detriment to the game. While list-building does allow the player another way to interact with the game system when not actually playing, an emphasis on it can diminish the value of sound tactics in a game. Many designers have deliberately tried to design rules where all the units are effective when taken in a balanced manner, and players are NOT rewarded for probing every aspect of an army list until they come up with a combination that is very hard-to-counter. Rather they prefer that in-game tactics win the day, not pre-game list-building. Of course there will always be some list-building in any game that lets you choose your units, but 40k is made for listbuilders and many other games are not.

I haven't heard from the designers whether DZ is deliberately designed this way, but it's a strong possibility.

Finding other -and more experienced- DZ players is a bit more difficult, and even if you do find them, the game might still not be your cup-o-tea, but I think it's possible that you're looking for an aspect of the game that is (possibly deliberately) not present.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/12 23:05:07


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Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

 scarletsquig wrote:
You just have to think a bit more with it is all.

40k games are mainly won during the army list writing stage.


I am assured that skilled players win with ANY list.
This must be an error, SS

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Waaagh! Warbiker



wales

List building is still important to dzc but its more about getting your balence in the army right then being tactical with it.

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Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer




Charleston, SC

Somehow the game is lacking a certain something, be it the fragility of units, the general lack of tactical mobility (being unable to shoot after dropping really kills the 'drop' aspect of the game) or the general inability of infantry to be dislodged once entrenched in a building.


I do not find unit fragility to be an issue with the game to be honest. If anything the only reason that units in 40k feel tougher is because you are using more models (and this is a common complaint about 40k).

This may be a problem due to -the restricted scope of unit- I miss the list building aspect of 40k - or the general lack of competitiveness/opponents I don't find it quite as fun as 40k?


Dropzone Commander has a force structure that is actually quite flexible (the battlegroup system) and that does a good job of tailoring your personal force to have a specific focus of your choice. I think your issue is that you do not have any forces outside the starter set forces. You have condors, sabres, rapiers, and legionaries on the UCM side and marauders, hunters, reapers, and warriors on the Scourge side. You do not have command units, command cards, light infantry dropships that can zoom across the table, close quarters specialists, snipers, artillery, heavy tanks, scout units, and fast moving interceptors. The starter set is a basic starter force. Two of those is that doubled, but it will get you no further than two 40k starter sets would (without additions and extra bits). It is fun, but after a while it may become one dimensional.

Well in 40k you can at least snap fire, in Dropzone you literally cannot shoot at any aircraft with ground weapons.


This is because 40k lacks the scale to do aircraft properly. In dropzone commander you have overlapping fields of AA fire that you have to attempt to overcome. Even then most air units will not dominate. Also I do find it pertinent to add that yes, infantry can fire small arms at close range at loitering aircraft. Combining their firepower to attempt to get a lucky hit on critical systems or manage to get a shot through the canopy (etc.).

Infantry aren't the only problem with the ruleset; in general it feels too static and one-dimensional. Once you take out his AA you can snowball quite hard with your aircraft units, and there isn't a response.


I find this difficult to believe as being an issue for you. Especially after what you claim next.

Dropships are largely obsolescent after the first or second turn.


A common complaint by new players. You may not always want to redeploy your ground units after you put them down, but the option is quite potent. It may loose you a turn of shooting, but do not underestimate the benefit of redeploying to more advantageous positions. This is a game that involves forethought (as opposed to static gunlines opening up on each other every turn).

The problem being that units you move by dropship can't act the turn they disembark. You'd always be better off just moving them normally and firing on the way than missing a turn of shooting whilst embarked on the dropship.


This kind of ties into the above complaint about dropships being useless after turn one. I still think that is simply not the case.


 
   
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Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

My only complaint with Dropzone Commander is that Dropship of Infantry Battlegroup A cannot pick up an APC of Infantry Battlegroup B... I could have all of my dropships but the one that came with APC B, and now I can't pick him up and escort him off the table, I have to sit by and watch him crawl towards the table edge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 13:39:55


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The New Miss Macross!





Deep Frier of Mount Doom

That is a bit odd and I wonder if there is an ingame balance reason for it.
   
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





South Wales

They have stated in a few videos and on forums that there were balance issues with allowing dropships/transports to pick up anyone.

They didn't expand on what these were, but it is something they looked at for a time.

The only issue I've seen regards to that in objective games is an objective unit losing its transport, but that's solved by simply passing the objective to another unit that still has a transport.

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Brigadier General






Chicago

Regarding transporting of units not originally transported a certain dropship....
In a game like DZC, where there isn't a tournament scene, it seems that something like that would be an easy houserule among a given game group.

Remember once you buy them, they're YOUR rules.

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Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

 Eilif wrote:
Regarding transporting of units not originally transported a certain dropship....
In a game like DZC, where there isn't a tournament scene, it seems that something like that would be an easy houserule among a given game group.

Remember once you buy them, they're YOUR rules.

While I said it was my only complaint, it is what we've houseruled, so now I have no reason but to like this game (not that a single rule didn't stop me before ).

Seriously it's a good game, people should at least try to get a demo of it.

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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh






Dallas, TX

I enjoy the game a lot using the cards. I find the "Intel" scenario is much more fun than the basic objective scenario. The objective scenario requires you to get in a building and then WAIT until your troops find the objective, then try to make it off.

The intel scenario you know what will happen the very next turn after you get in. It either blows up, gets you a point (and you can now advance to go into another building) or it's an objective (that you have, so no waiting to see if you find it) and you have to escape with it.

Has led to a LOT more interaction.

Also don't forget you can get in and get out of a transport in one turn. Allows you to reposition quickly and lose only one round of shooting rather than two, and avoids risky hanging out in the dropship.

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Sergeant First Class



Northern VA

From a gameplay mechanic, just think of using dropships midgame as running/moving at the double/whatever your "other" game system calls it. You forfeit shooting for a turn for extra movement. Mechanically, that's all it is.
   
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





South Wales

Depending on race, it's more than double, sometimes triple the move, and that's not including the 6 inches of embark/disembark.

Dropships also provide supporting fire, which while not always useful, can be good. After deploying my starter force, my 3 scourge dropships zoomed off and in one turn killed 3 UCM tanks (lucky) which were on the opposite side of the table to his AA.

Same turn his AA embarked, zoomed up via dropship and disembarked, meaning I would lose at least 1 of my dropships next turn regardless of who went first, instead of getting clean away.

Prestor Jon wrote:
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