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I should preface this with saying that I am not ashamed to admit that I am sometimes a literary snob. I generally avoid brand-setting fiction like the plague. I grew up on bad dragonlance novels and I've never really gotten the taste out of my mouth. Unfortunately, that prejudice frequently holds true - much of fiction written to promote commercial settings winds up being.. well.. bad.

That said, on a whim I picked up Horus Rising and actually really enjoyed it. I continued reading and wound up worming through False Gods and Galaxy in Flames without stopping. By Flight of the Einstein the spell was mostly broken and I started to struggle. I'm now a quarter into Fulgrim and have ground to a dead halt. I also tried to get into the Space Wolf book by William King but.. that was a lost cause by page 5.

It is thus with a heavy - if hopeful - heart that I cast my question to the Dakkans:

Can anyone recommend good Black Library books? I'm taking a Hiatus from the Horus Heresy series, though eventually I'd like to at least make it to Prospero Burns. Of particular interest are space marine books from different Space Marine Chapters and Chaos Space Marine stories in which they are treated as something more interesting than moustache twirling villains. My current agenda is actually mining for fluff ideas for the gaggle of heresy minis I picked up, and being a fluff-hound I'd like to do something interesting with them.

Help me Dakkawon Dakkanobi. You're (collectively) my only hope!

I know you said you want a break from heresy novels, but try Legion or the First Heretic.

Both of the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers characters in those books show real depth IMO, and while turning to Chaos, almost manage to seem like the good guys.

The Night Lords trilogy is pretty much up there as one of their best imo, might want to give that a try. Definitely not out to portray them as moustache twirling villains, that's for sure...

I would suggest Blood of Asaheim, Battle of the Fang, or Emperor's Gift.

I am a literary snob too. Most BL books are bolter porn. It gets worse if you limit yourself to Space Marines. If you were asking for a book about one or more mighty SM that go to a place to kick ass and be heros, if you hate a good story, a decent character, a twist, a not-moustache twirling villain, you could just get any book with a Space Marine on the cover. You are asking for the opposite. This is not gonna be easy and I am not sure there is hope for you, but I will try to help.

First an advice: search for stuff like “not enough action”, “boring” or “this is not the way XX is” in the reviews.
Disclaimer: this is all personal opinion.

Ignore the sequels of the books I recommend you unless otherwise specified.

0: Space Marine. By Ian Watson. 1996. No bolter porn here. Just a professional writer writing about Space Marines. It literally aims to make you think! If you like it give “Eye of Terror” by Barrington J. Bayley a try. It includes Space Marines but they are not the main characters.

1: Grey Knights. Ben Counter. Complex characters, interesting story with many twists and surprises everywhere.
2: Lord of the Night. Simon Spurrier. Complex characters, interesting story with many twists and surprises everywhere. The book goes quite silly here and there.
These books have many characters that are not Space Marines. This helps a lot.

3: Storm of Iron. Graham McNeill. About Iron Warriors. Quite brutal. No moustache twirling here.
4: Dark Apostle. By Anthony Reynolds. Word Bearers. Quite brutal. No moustache twirling here.
5: The First Heretic. Aaron Demsky-Bowden. Word Bearers. Horus Heresy book. You do not need to read the rest to enjoy this.
These books have some characters that are not Space Marines. We are bordering bolter porn quite fast here.

6: Soul Hunter, Blood Reaver, Void Stalker. By Aaron Dembsky-Bowden. Night lords.
7: A Thousand Sons. Graham McNeill. Horus Heresy book.
8: Blood Gorgons. Henry Zou. About a custom made Chaos Space Marine warband.
I am going to stop here. We are puddling in bolter porn right now. Do not expect any depth, surprises, character development, properly developed enemies…. But they are far better written than the average BL stuff and quite enjoyable if you turn some parts of the brain off.

You can also try some collections of short stories:
Let the Galaxy Burn
Heroes of the Space Marines
Treacheries of the Space Marines (chaos here)
Tales of Heresy (Horus Heresy)

Good luck.
Do not expect much. “Hope is the first step to disappointment”.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Verses wrote:
The Night Lords trilogy is pretty much up there as one of their best imo, might want to give that a try. Definitely not out to portray them as moustache twirling villains, that's for sure...

This is because they are the heroes of the story.
The villains in the series are twirling their moustaches all the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I would suggest Blood of Asaheim, Battle of the Fang, or Emperor's Gift.

Blood of Asaheim is about a Space Wolves squad sent to save a full world. They insult everyone around and everyone is fine with it. They behave like total jerks yet nobody bats an eye.
Four of them charge an enemy army of countless soldiers and heavy tanks and hit them with their axes until all of them are dead. They use grenades to destroy the tanks while jumping from one to another.
They are impervious to damage, and stop a planetary invasion without anything resembling a tactic by hitting them with axes. None of them have any proper characterization. Not a single enemy gets a single moment of attention, a single description of why are they doing what they are doing... ok I am stopping here.

If you like Blood of Asaheim you will definitely like The Emperor´s Gift. Twin books. I don´t know about Battle of the Fang, but I believe there is something in Space Wolves that make BL writers dumb.

Yeah, but she/he asked for "Chaos Space Marine stories in which they are treated as something more interesting than moustache twirling villains". Which is what I was referencing, and which is what they are in the NL trilogy.

Not entirely sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me there though lol, so sorry if this has added further redundancy...

Mostly disagreeing. The book is in my top-ten list though (number six). But it is bolter porn.

Some Chaos Space Marines in the story are the main characters, so of course they cannot be mono-dimensional characters. But everyone else is depicted rather poorly (or not at all).

Compare it with Dark Apostle, Lord of the Night or Storm of Iron. Characters on both sides are well developed. Many of them. And while Space Marines are almost unable to evolve, there is a lot of character development in the not-Astartes characters. In the NL-trilogy there is a little bit of this, but not much really. It is mostly about Space Marine doing Space Mariney things, and being awesome all the way. Septimus and Octavia (two secondary characters) partly compensate this.

But I digress... they are really good books (I really enjoyed the third), thus my recommendation.

Eh, fair enough, I'll leave it at agree to disagree with you, then, cause this probably a discussion for another time. I will throw a vote behind Lord of the Night though, that book is boss.

I enjoyed Lord of Night alot and thought it set the scene nicely for the subsequent trilogy. Love to see the main characters in a sequal or a cameo in the main NL series...

For good some marine stories I would recomend:

Personally I would try Helsreach - the central character is a Black Templars Chaplain of some repute - I had not interest in the BT before this really but this book made me love them. Also like IMO, many of the best Space Marine novels there are plenty of non Astartes characters to counterpoint their lack of humanity.

Good review here:
http://lostonfenris.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/wrath-of-iron-by-chris-wraight-a-review/
Also Wrath of Iron - again the best bits for me are the non Space Marine characters as they interact with the utterly merciless Iron Hands..........

Helsreach and Wrath of Iron should have been number 9 and 10 on my list, for the reasons given by Mr Morden.

@Verses OK

 da001 wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I would suggest Blood of Asaheim, Battle of the Fang, or Emperor's Gift.

Blood of Asaheim is about a Space Wolves squad sent to save a full world. They insult everyone around and everyone is fine with it. They behave like total jerks yet nobody bats an eye.
Four of them charge an enemy army of countless soldiers and heavy tanks and hit them with their axes until all of them are dead. They use grenades to destroy the tanks while jumping from one to another.
They are impervious to damage, and stop a planetary invasion without anything resembling a tactic by hitting them with axes. None of them have any proper characterization. Not a single enemy gets a single moment of attention, a single description of why are they doing what they are doing... ok I am stopping here.
If you like Blood of Asaheim you will definitely like The Emperor´s Gift. Twin books. I don´t know about Battle of the Fang, but I believe there is something in Space Wolves that make BL writers dumb.

If that's all that you got out of Blood of Asaheim then you might be a literary snob, but you are not literary critique and I would question your ability to give the OP the advice he is seeking. Blood of Asaheim does feature a small pack of Space Wolves and they do go to a planet, but not to save the whole world. They are sent to investigate the issues of a single city and to attempt to amend the harsh feelings between the Sisters of Battle and the Space Wolves. The only reason why the Sisters are fine with the attitude and actions of the Wolves is because they realize how well and truly fethed they are after the initial encounters and realize that the Space Marines are their best bet at surviving on this little rock. Now that the little bit of backstory is out of the way, Blood of Asaheim is more than just Space Wolf Bolter Porn, it's actually delves into the inner workings and feelings of the pack members. The story isn't just about the wolves going into a planet, kicking ass, and taking names. It's to show how close knit the packs are and what happens when a battle-brother leaves this pack for a half century of service with the Deathwatch and how he grew as a character and how both he and his pack are re-learning to trust each other. Christ Wraight has gotten into the minds of the Space Wolves and makes them human, something that is hard to do with Space Marines. He shows us that these Wolves have doubts and 'fears' and that they can overcome this by actually being more than a man genetically made for war. Also, these Wolves are far from impervious considering that several of them ++REDACTED BY HOLY ORDER OF THE SPOILER++. You also have to take into note that Blood of Asaheim, while a complete story is also part one of a trilogy, with the second one being titled, "N'jal Stormcaller". As to the villains not getting any screen time, this is how I know you either 1) never read the story, or 2) skipped the last chunk of the book. The 'main' villain of the story is a Plague Marine of the Death Guard, not just a Chaos Marine blessed by papa Nurgle, but a Plague Marine that was around at the time of the heresy. His motivations are the same as every other Nurgle Marine, to spread Papa Nurgle's love, but he is tired, he is weary, and has been at this a long time. The fact that an author has the balls to say that a chaos marine is weary of millenia of fighting is fantastic! Definitely an idea that should be explored further. Sadly, we don't get to see much more of the Nurgle Marines in this book but because of the ship that was shown in the book. Chris Wraight already knows where he's going with this, and the fact we're going to get a look at Typhus in one of the next two books. I'm so excited for the next two books.

Battle of the Fang was also written by Chris Wraight, but it's a Space Marine Battles book. While it is generally marine on marine fighting, there are parts of the story where Wraight focuses on the Chapters serfs and servants and how the Marines interact with them, which shows how the Marines view normal humans, something we don't get to see in the fluff because the game focuses on the "there is only war" aspect of things.

Emperor's Gift is similar to Blood of Asaheim because it's a single squad of marines doing things that marines tend to do. But this focuses on the brotherhood of Psykers from Titan, aka the Grey Knights and the First War of Armageddon and the Months of Shame between the Inquisition's ego and the Space Wolves looking out for and protecting humanity!.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I would suggest Blood of Asaheim, Battle of the Fang, or Emperor's Gift.

Blood of Asaheim is about a Space Wolves squad sent to save a full world. They insult everyone around and everyone is fine with it. They behave like total jerks yet nobody bats an eye.
Four of them charge an enemy army of countless soldiers and heavy tanks and hit them with their axes until all of them are dead. They use grenades to destroy the tanks while jumping from one to another.
They are impervious to damage, and stop a planetary invasion without anything resembling a tactic by hitting them with axes. None of them have any proper characterization. Not a single enemy gets a single moment of attention, a single description of why are they doing what they are doing... ok I am stopping here.
If you like Blood of Asaheim you will definitely like The Emperor´s Gift. Twin books. I don´t know about Battle of the Fang, but I believe there is something in Space Wolves that make BL writers dumb.

If that's all that you got out of Blood of Asaheim then you might be a literary snob, but you are not literary critique and I would question your ability to give the OP the advice he is seeking.

Come at me, bro A thread that openly admits that most BL books are garbage must get some heat.
Disclaimer: I have about 1500 pts of Space Wolves, I love them. And Chris Wraight wrote "Wrath of Iron", a good book. And this is just my opinion, just like yours is yours, do not take it personally.

Blood of Asaheim does feature a small pack of Space Wolves and they do go to a planet, but not to save the whole world. They are sent to investigate the issues of a single city and to attempt to amend the harsh feelings between the Sisters of Battle and the Space Wolves.

The wolves look down at anyone in that book, particularly the Sisters, who they insult. The Sisters (who have lost their faith and are scared of three chaos space marines) lower their heads and smile meekly. This may sound awesome for a Space Wolves fanboy but it is bolter porn for many, bordering being unbearable and impossible to read by the virtue of being sexist.

Here are some reviews by Sisters of Battle players if you have any doubt


And if you still misremember how Wolves treat people around, here you have a couple of excerpts directly from the book:

Tl/dr: any character who is not a SPACE MARINE is absolutely useless in this book. The SM mistreat everyone and behave all macho all the time, and yet they are the only hope because... the enemy has 3 space marines too! WOW! Who cares about the tanks now? Oh my, our meltas and plasma rifles and missiles and battle cannons and lasers are useless. We need the axe of a mighty wolf (who may be YOU)!!
If this is not bolter porn of the most dumbest breed, I don´t know what it is.

The only reason why the Sisters are fine with the attitude and actions of the Wolves is because they realize how well and truly fethed they are after the initial encounters and realize that the Space Marines are their best bet at surviving on this little rock.

Why? They lost their weapons in the kitchen? Their tanks? They are the best soldiers of mankind with the best gear available and in command of a full planet and they need the help of the manly wolves??

Now that the little bit of backstory is out of the way, Blood of Asaheim is more than just Space Wolf Bolter Porn, it's actually delves into the inner workings and feelings of the pack members. The story isn't just about the wolves going into a planet, kicking ass, and taking names. It's to show how close knit the packs are and what happens when a battle-brother leaves this pack for a half century of service with the Deathwatch and how he grew as a character and how both he and his pack are re-learning to trust each other. Christ Wraight has gotten into the minds of the Space Wolves and makes them human, something that is hard to do with Space Marines.

What? Ok there is some minimal characterization of the main characters. But this happens in any book ever written. And it is quite topical, at the end I found all of them the same.

He shows us that these Wolves have doubts and 'fears' and that they can overcome this by actually being more than a man genetically made for war.

No way. This part I am not giving to you. I demand quotes.

Also, these Wolves are far from impervious considering that several of them ++REDACTED BY HOLY ORDER OF THE SPOILER++. You also have to take into note that Blood of Asaheim, while a complete story is also part one of a trilogy, with the second one being titled, "N'jal Stormcaller".

The suspense is killing me. What will our lovely wolvies defeat now? A Craftworld, a Hive Fleet, a Bloodthirster? If full armies are destroyed in the first volume in close combat, this may be a new record.

I noticed you didn´t say a thing about a bunch of wolves charging a full army with their axes and destroying it. And when the tanks get there, they jump from one another throwing grenades. It is good that you like it, but... wow... wow... I mean... wow. This book (and The Emperor´s Gift) is the definition of Bolter Porn.

As to the villains not getting any screen time, this is how I know you either 1) never read the story, or 2) skipped the last chunk of the book. The 'main' villain of the story is a Plague Marine of the Death Guard, not just a Chaos Marine blessed by papa Nurgle, but a Plague Marine that was around at the time of the heresy. His motivations are the same as every other Nurgle Marine, to spread Papa Nurgle's love, but he is tired, he is weary, and has been at this a long time. The fact that an author has the balls to say that a chaos marine is weary of millenia of fighting is fantastic! Definitely an idea that should be explored further. Sadly, we don't get to see much more of the Nurgle Marines in this book but because of the ship that was shown in the book. Chris Wraight already knows where he's going with this, and the fact we're going to get a look at Typhus in one of the next two books. I'm so excited for the next two books.

I must admit I do not remember that. What is it, two lines after hundreds of the basest bolter porn? However it is not a new idea. Most books I recommended (I think all of them) included chaos warriors weary of fights. If you want to see the concept explored further, read more books. The concept has been explored a lot.

Interesting...After reading your comments, I'm curious - how are you defining bolter porn? And, I suppose, a moustache twirling villain...?

Also, OP - I'm not certain how aware you are of this, but there's no requirement to read the whole Heresy series in order...Many of the books are entirely independant of each other. You could probably read A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns without any of the others, as an example.

Verses wrote:
Interesting...After reading your comments, I'm curious - how are you defining bolter porn? And, I suppose, a moustache twirling villain...?

This is Mary Sue.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue
The definition is too vague. You have a list of the key traits here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CommonMarySueTraits

I define Bolter Porn as Mary Sue when Mary is a Marine. The novel starts. A Space Marine goes. He is so awesome. People is his side are in awe and his enemies respect and fear him. He kicks ass. End of the novel.
There are different levels though. Soul Hunter is a brilliant novel, but it has with some bolter porn in it. BoA or TEG have lots of it.

Now I am curious: how do you define it?

And a mustache twirling villain is a poorly developed villain. You didn´t know that? Or you think that the enemies in Blood on Asaheim are properly developed? Then please elaborate. Why?

 da001 wrote:
The wolves look down at anyone in that book, particularly the Sisters, who they insult. The Sisters (who have lost their faith and are scared of three chaos space marines) lower their heads and smile meekly. This may sound awesome for a Space Wolves fanboy but it is bolter porn for many, bordering being unbearable and impossible to read by the virtue of being sexist.

1) It's not sexist, throw male Ecclesiarchy in there and you'd have a similar reaction from the Wolves. The wolves are arrogant, as it's pointed out in other BL books that the Wolves act the way they do because everyone thinks them to be savages and so the feed upon that idea because it gives them a huge advantage to their already impressive (by simply being a post-human) combat prowess. If you want to see the Wolves for what they truly are, go read Prospero Burns, it puts the notions of Bolter Porn into check.
2) The sisters and the wolves have never had a nice relationship because the Wolves don't revere the Emperor as a God and the Sisters do. Not to mention the Wolves have been on the Inquisition's gak list for a long time and the two have come to blows before. There is bad blood between the two. This is why Wraight opens the book the way he does with the former leader of Jarnhammer meeting his grisly demise at the hands of an ecclesiarchy member. (It's not much of a spoiler because it doesn't have an impact on the story as a whole).
3) Not all of the sisters have lost their faith, the Cannoness has because she is not used to such conflict. While they might be sisters of the Wounded Heart, they are most likely not the ones that were a part of the Black Crusade. And if they are, it is a good bet that the 13th Black Crusade has not happened yet. There's a chance that the sisters that survive this will be the bad asses that defend an Imperial Stronghold in the 13th Black Crusade. That's the biggest thing that people forget is that the big events published by GW take place basically all at 999.M41 leaving all of the BL novels to come before that point.

And if you still misremember how Wolves treat people around, here you have a couple of excerpts directly from the book:

Spoiler:

How the Wolves see and treat the Sisters:

Until I got here I thought you were all stuck-up bitches, wearing a pale mockery of our sacred armour and pretending to fight like we do. I thought you were pious and arrogant.’
Callia suppressed a smile. ‘Stuck-up bitches,’ she said, amused. ‘That’s… candid.’
Jorundur shrugged. ‘I try to be. And don’t be surprised – our memories are long. Fenris has been attacked by your kind more than once.’
‘Not in living memory.’
Jorundur snorted. ‘In our living memory. You may have forgotten, but we have not. We tell sagas of it. We sing of how we sent your priests home, their robes stripped from their backs and their warships breaking open around them.’
Callia sighed. ‘I’m sure you do,’ she said. ‘But then you are a warlike people. Fenris has been attacked by the Inquisition too. You make enemies easily, it seems.’
‘We make no enemies but Traitors and xenos. If others choose to get in our way, that’s their business.’

Keep in mind that the Sisters get easily murdered and are unable to stop three Chaos Space Marines. And they openly recognize that. Here is a conversation when they see a single CSM:

Gunnlaugur snorted, his nostrils flaring. He looked pensive. ‘Your troops can’t kill it,’ he said.
De Chatelaine nodded. ‘I know. I hope yours can.’
Gunnlaugur didn’t smile that time, which surprised Bajola. Until then, his casual confidence had seemed inexhaustible.
We can kill anything,’ he said. ‘That’s what we do.’

None of these seem uncharacteristic of the Space Wolves in the fluff, but you also have to remember how Gunnlaugur feels after the bloodclaw in his pack gets injured and his feelings of remorse for not listening to Ingvar due to their abrasive personalities. You're also using quotes from the beginning of the book (I don't have the book on me atm, so I cannot give you better quotes atm), but as the story progresses the Wolves and the Sisters begin to work together, the Wolves go out of their way to build up the defenses of the city, to improve morale of everyone in the city. They defend imperial guardsmen, they give themselves up to fights that they can barely handle. It takes basically the entire pack to kill a single chaos space marine, and even then they only win because of .

Tl/dr: any character who is not a SPACE MARINE is absolutely useless in this book. The SM mistreat everyone and behave all macho all the time, and yet they are the only hope because... the enemy has 3 space marines too! WOW! Who cares about the tanks now? Oh my, our meltas and plasma rifles and missiles and battle cannons and lasers are useless. We need the axe of a mighty wolf (who may be YOU)!!
If this is not bolter porn of the most dumbest breed, I don´t know what it is.

And yet, at the end of the day, even these wolves cannot save the day. They merely last long enough for the rest of the Wolves to come to their aid. They went into that final fight not knowing that fact and knowing that they would die

The only reason why the Sisters are fine with the attitude and actions of the Wolves is because they realize how well and truly fethed they are after the initial encounters and realize that the Space Marines are their best bet at surviving on this little rock.

Why? They lost their weapons in the kitchen? Their tanks? They are the best soldiers of mankind with the best gear available and in command of a full planet and they need the help of the manly wolves??

They explain this, they are undermanned, under equipped, and incapable of defending their planet because they do not have the requested supplies. The planet this takes place on is a Shrine World, it is a desert, and it was supposed to be the jumping off point of a great crusade, which never happened. So the sisters on the planet went about their duties, and being out in the middle of feth all, they had little reason to suspect that such an attack would happen.

What? Ok there is some minimal characterization of the main characters. But this happens in any book ever written. And it is quite topical, at the end I found all of them the same.

There is plenty of characterization. Ingvar and Gunnlaugur put aside pieces of their differences and come to a mutual understanding (shows wolves aren't 100% pig headed). Ingvar learns to accept that he has changed a lot from his time with the Deathwatch, and that he is better for it, and that he can make his pack better by implementing the things he learned, but not by refusing to act like a wolf. The sister that he confides in throughout the course of the novel has a massive amount of distrust for the Wolves based on the opening scene, and by the end comes to see that they are not the savages she thought they were. Like I said, we're getting a trilogy there is a lot of characterization to do.

He shows us that these Wolves have doubts and 'fears' and that they can overcome this by actually being more than a man genetically made for war.

No way. This part I am not giving to you. I demand quotes.

I don't have the book anymore, it was from the library, but there a scene in the book where Ingvar confesses to the one sister that transferred to the Wounded Heart about his doubts from serving with the Deathwatch and the lack of trust his pack has for him, there's another point where he is sitting next to the comatose body of one of the other wolves talking about how he shouldn't have left, he shouldn't have received his talisman back, and doubting the last half century of his service in the Imperium. Gunnlaugur shows doubt over the fight that saw two of the pack injured and you so graciously deemed a fight where they charged tanks with axes (even though they did more things that just that) There is plenty of doubt going on with this pack.

Also, these Wolves are far from impervious considering that several of them ++REDACTED BY HOLY ORDER OF THE SPOILER++. You also have to take into note that Blood of Asaheim, while a complete story is also part one of a trilogy, with the second one being titled, "N'jal Stormcaller".

The suspense is killing me. What will our lovely wolvies defeat now? A Craftworld, a Hive Fleet, a Bloodthirster? If full armies are destroyed in the first volume in close combat, this may be a new record.

1) Whole armies were not killed in close combat there were deaths by the hundreds by the guardsmen manning the guns with the space wolves as support. Close combat didn't happen until the bloodclaw (like an idiot) jumped over the walls and proceeded to engage things in hand to hand.
2) We haven't had the Big Bad Evil Overlord revealed in this book, so they haven't saved the planet, they barely saved the city.
3) This is the part where I'm beginning to think you didn't read the book at all...

I noticed you didn´t say a thing about a bunch of wolves charging a full army with their axes and destroying it. And when the tanks get there, they jump from one another throwing grenades. It is good that you like it, but... wow... wow... I mean... wow. This book (and The Emperor´s Gift) is the definition of Bolter Porn.

1) They didn't charge an entire army with their axes. The first time they encountered the enemy was maybe 50 half dead cultists (yay nurgle!) and a sorcerer, they did not just charge tanks with axes and grenades, they had the wolf with the heavy bolter lay down covering fire (as he should), they took out the drivers where they could, and they used their grenades how they're used in the game (against vehicles). They did not get out of there unscathed, and had two members take grave injuries.
2) Again the second time they charged the enemy was as they were reaching the walls to give the guardsmen time to reload, recover, and keep shooting.

I must admit I do not remember that. What is it, two lines after hundreds of the basest bolter porn? However it is not a new idea. Most books I recommended (I think all of them) included chaos warriors weary of fights. If you want to see the concept explored further, read more books. The concept has been explored a lot.

And this is where I'm definitely sure you didn't read the book, or at least finish the book. This part near the beginning of the fight before most of the wolves show up. So with that, please give me examples because I've read my fair share of BL books, and none of the chaos marines I've read about have been 'weary' of the fighting, in fact most reviews of this book talk about how out of character it is. Sure the Night Lords Trilogy talked about how they were tired and weary of always being on the run, but it's not the same as being weary of fighting the Imperium for 10 thousand years.

And ya know what da001, by invoking Mary Sue, I'm fairly certain you've got nothing to actually contribute to the discussion, so I'll be seeing you.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Summary: I liked Blood of Asaheim

I think it is obvious that we are not going to reach an agreement. We already gave our opinions. Let´s stop here. Feel free to open a new topic about it and I will continue the debate there.

So with that, please give me examples because I've read my fair share of BL books, and none of the chaos marines I've read about have been 'weary' of the fighting, in fact most reviews of this book talk about how out of character it is. Sure the Night Lords Trilogy talked about how they were tired and weary of always being on the run, but it's not the same as being weary of fighting the Imperium for 10 thousand years.

Ere we go!
Lord of the Night:
Storm of Iron:
Honor Among Fiends:
And then we have the Night Lords trilogy:
As said: being weary of the Long War is a constant in CSM books.

Related topic: A really good take on CSM´s motivation can be found in "The Masters, Bidding", by Matthew Ferrer. Unfortunately none of the characters is weary of the Long War.

And ya know what da001, by invoking Mary Sue, I'm fairly certain you've got nothing to actually contribute to the discussion, so I'll be seeing you.

Why so? I was asked a question, and I answered it. Did I disrespect you? How?
You have another definition? What´s your problem with Mary Sue? I am perplexed.

I think the problem is that Mary Sue has become a horrific buzzword used more and more often by people to denote all manner of things...It leaves a bit of a bad connotation.

But anyway, I doubt this'll be your cup of tea, but reading a single Ciaphas Cain book can be good for the over the top humour used in it. Only the one though...They got tiresome after a point.

Also da001, if you wish to talk about this more, drop me a PM, I really don't want to derail this thread further.

Oh I like Ciaphas Cain. The OP asked about marines though.

Didn´t know the Mary Sue taboo.

Oh dear. I should have realized the can of worms I was opening. haha.

Thanks for the input so far. I'll go dig around and see what I can track down copies of. If anyone else has any suggestions, let me know.

As I'm currently trying to decide between C:SM and CSM, I'm especially interested in things from the CSM point of view.


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As a side thought - are there any good dark eldar focused novels?

There are very few novels written from the dark eldar perspective. I can only think of The Dark Eldar series by Andy Chambers: Path of the Renegade, Path of the Incubus and The Masque of Vyle. Haven´t read it.

Dark Eldar feature as villains in Crimson Tears (the third Soul Drinkers novel by Ben Counter) and Dark Disciple (second novel of the Word Bearers series by Anthony Reynolds). I like both, but Dark Eldar are the bad guys on them.

I thought that The Death of Antagonis is pretty fun. Can be a bit vague in places, but it features the Black Dragons, a pretty interesting Chapter of Space Marines who need to overcome thier internal differences. Some Chaos Marines also feature, but that's where spme of the vagueness comes in, as we're not told much about them

 Alfndrate wrote:
3) Not all of the sisters have lost their faith, the Cannoness has because she is not used to such conflict.

Canonesses are described in the AS codex as "a shining example of purity and purpose" and "each is a veteran warrior of many hundreds of battles", as well as mentioning that each has a "sheer overarching faith in the Emperor". A Canoness of all people wouldn't lose her faith just because a war is going badly.

It almost sounds like you may be a little tired of marine BL books (don't worry everyone has this problem at one point or another), I would honestly suggest Ciaphas Cain, especially if you tear through books like I do because they come in awesome omnibi. If you like slightly darker/more serious books I would suggest Eisenhorn-Ravenor, or the Classic Gaunts Ghosts series

Eisenhorn-Ravenor... The best trilogies I have ever read.

Something for everyone in those books.

 Wardragoon wrote:
It almost sounds like you may be a little tired of marine BL books (don't worry everyone has this problem at one point or another), I would honestly suggest Ciaphas Cain, especially if you tear through books like I do because they come in awesome omnibi. If you like slightly darker/more serious books I would suggest Eisenhorn-Ravenor, or the Classic Gaunts Ghosts series

I've developed a tendancy to read a Ciaphas Cain novel after reading another 40k book, the lighter take on the universe is kind of nice to get.

He is one of my top three authors in BL - not just for the Cain stories.

What I like about Cain and the other characters is that every so often there are reminders about the darker aspects of the Imperium - so Cain is reassured to see a transport full of prisoners coming to his Schola for the children tp practice live firing on, or casually mentions firing squads he has organised in the past.

Amberely has fond childhood memories of looking at pictures of burning herectics -etc...

They seem alot like us - but they live in a different world - one more like historical periods in terms of their attitude to death etc.

My first recommendation is the short story collection Let the Galaxy Burn, edited by Christian Dunn and Marc Gascoigne (not to be confused with the Horus Heresy book of the same name). It's a huge collection of short stories from a variety of authors, with a huge spectrum of topics and viewpoints. It will give you a better idea of the authors that you might want to look into, or groups you might not have realized you were interested in. (I had no interest in reading about the Guard until this book.)

As far as novels go, the Night Lords trilogy (beginning with Soul Hunter) by Aaron Dembski Bowden is hands-down the best thing I've read in the franchise. Amazing work. As far as fiction in the no-more-heroes subgenre goes, it's stellar.

The Inquisitor series (first cycle beginning with Xenos, second with Ravenor) by Dan Abnett is pretty sweet too, although the villain has been accused by some of being a moustache-twirler. (I personally disagree, but that's a topic for another day.) It always seemed to me like the characters of the villains were less important to the series than that of the Inquisitors themselves. In essence, they are often their own villains, and it's an exploration of how far they are willing to go to accomplish their missions. The antagonists sometimes only serve as a motivator for that, and some readers give Abnett some heat for that decision.

Sandy Mitchell's Ciaphas Cain series is probably one of my faves. It endures some harsh criticism sometimes, but some of it's critics dislike it merely because it dares to be humorous in a grimdark setting. Some of it's critics are unable to separate the main character's opinions from the opinions of the author, and believe the books to give an unfair treatment of their favorite groups. Still, I'd pick up the first one and take a look.

My main gripe with the Cain novels is how they are perceived by some people, overriding their perception of what GW itself is putting out in terms of fluff. It'd be perfectly alright if people would take it as a satire instead of an actual "this is how things are". The depiction in the Cain novels just seems to deliver a sometimes stark contradiction to the original material, and slapstick humour in 40k generally sounds like what Hogan's Heroes would be to WW2 and the Nazis (Godwyn'd!). A skilled author can go "light hearted" without feeling a need to contradict an army's major theme just for the heck of it (especially when that army has no real reason to be in the book in the first place) - the Redeemer and Kal Jerico comics should have proven as much.

But this thread isn't about Cain, so I'll stop here. I agree with Jimsolo about the short story collections! This should really be the first thing someone new to Black Library's take on the setting takes a look at. Similar to the gamers, every single author has his or her own interpretation on certain specific details of the 41st millennium, and the short story anthologies thus provide an excellent opportunity to sample them, and check which author best adheres to your preferred style/perspective. It's like a collection of trials. Read the short stories, find an author you like, and then dive in with the "full version" books they've written.

 Barbarus wrote:
I should preface this with saying that I am not ashamed to admit that I am sometimes a literary snob. I generally avoid brand-setting fiction like the plague. I grew up on bad dragonlance novels and I've never really gotten the taste out of my mouth. Unfortunately, that prejudice frequently holds true - much of fiction written to promote commercial settings winds up being.. well.. bad.

That said, on a whim I picked up Horus Rising and actually really enjoyed it. I continued reading and wound up worming through False Gods and Galaxy in Flames without stopping. By Flight of the Einstein the spell was mostly broken and I started to struggle. I'm now a quarter into Fulgrim and have ground to a dead halt. I also tried to get into the Space Wolf book by William King but.. that was a lost cause by page 5.

It is thus with a heavy - if hopeful - heart that I cast my question to the Dakkans:

Can anyone recommend good Black Library books? I'm taking a Hiatus from the Horus Heresy series, though eventually I'd like to at least make it to Prospero Burns. Of particular interest are space marine books from different Space Marine Chapters and Chaos Space Marine stories in which they are treated as something more interesting than moustache twirling villains. My current agenda is actually mining for fluff ideas for the gaggle of heresy minis I picked up, and being a fluff-hound I'd like to do something interesting with them.

Help me Dakkawon Dakkanobi. You're (collectively) my only hope!

Legion First Heretic Betrayer know no Fear unrrememebered empire a thousand sons the outcast dead these are the best Horus Heresy books.