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Hey mates, recently I played a game today against a IG player with the Steel Legion I currently have (planning on selling them fyi do to medical bills ), when a Tau player came into the store looking for a game. Now seeing us just finishing, he imminently asked if once of us wanted to play and the IG player agreed to it, but things changed dramatically when the Tau player pulled out 2x Riptides. and a bunch of Broadsides with pathfinders with the usually markerlight spam. Now Im not sure if this is the new norm for Tau, but the IG player imminently lost interest in playing, which got the Tau player upset and he began ranting on how he can never get any games anymore with his Tau as too many people believe that they are too strong in this edition as favors them to much thanks to GW making it a shooting game. Now granted, I don't think the IG player shouldn't have agreed to it and then back out but at the same time I can't blame the guy as the two consistent Tau players at my store run super competitive lists w/Riptides and such and they too are struggling to get games in. Now this is just at my store, but from talking to a friend in WA, he even stated that the Tau players at his store bring other armies as no one wants to fight the Tau right now, because in his opinion they are too strong right now and need a nerf to balance them out, as though they suck in CC, GW's changes to the Assault rules made it even harder for people to do that. Persnaly, I just feel they need to real in the Marker-Light spam to the point where its not so powerful, but besides that I don't have an issue with them. Anyone else notice this going on or is it just in my area? I know Tau are one of the top armies in the game now and even I don't relish fighting them as they get a lot of firepower for dirt cheap, but I would still.

I'm always up to play against Tau no matter the list.... Just as long as the person playing them isn't a ****Bag... And by that I mean a bad sport. I enjoy playing against challenging army lists as they challenge me to learn new tactics.

I like playing tough list for the same reason, I enjoy the tactical challenge and finding ways to overcome the tough opposition. Now do I think Tau are very strong in this edition? Yes, and I will be honest I do have the least fun playing them as sitting back and blasting with x2-x5 Riptides is annoying, but I still will play them. Oh and use spellcheck!

Here's my suggestion.

Play Daemons and run that stupid deathstart with the 2++ rerollable and make sure there's LOS blocking terrain on the board.

Make sure that the Tau player has to move to shoot and you'll see how much better Daemons can be once you LOS blocking terrain. 40k balances out better with more terrain on the board.

I played in a tournament last week using daemons (Khorne with 20 flesh hounds + grimoire) and faced Tau in all 3 rounds. I won the first 2 games and lost the third to a list with 4 Riptides. I can understand people wanting a break from Tau.

I play tau (amongst others) but because I don't field riptides no one seems to mind.

I honestly think the problem stems more from riptides being seen as waac, much like how vendettas were seen that way in early 6e

EDIT: Point being people are getting too worked up from the hype online to play a game with someone, which imo would suck considering at least for me I can only play once every 2 weeks if I am lucky

I have 3 armies. Imperial Fists, Necrons and Tau

When I play my imperial fists, everyone complains about how broken grav guns are, and how bikes are undercosted, and how drop pod assaults are lame.

When I play Necrons, reanimation protocols are unfair, MSS and warscythes are beardy and taking more than one anihilation barge or doom/night scythe makes you a WAAC, and don't get me started on wraiths....

When I play tau, marker lights are broken, supporting fire is a nerf to every other army. Riptides are just WAAC things, and only TFG will bring one, and you are the lowest of the low if you bring more than that. Lets not even consider missile sides, crisis teams and firewarriors.

No matter which army it is, someone will complain, someone will rage when they are beaten, after all, they are infaliable, how else could they have lost? Got to be beardiness, being TFG or playing an over powered codex. Ironically you could beat them with the weakest choices from the weakest codex, and you would still be being beardy.

madtankbloke wrote:
I have 3 armies. Imperial Fists, Necrons and Tau

When I play my imperial fists, everyone complains about how broken grav guns are, and how bikes are undercosted, and how drop pod assaults are lame.

When I play Necrons, reanimation protocols are unfair, MSS and warscythes are beardy and taking more than one anihilation barge or doom/night scythe makes you a WAAC, and don't get me started on wraiths....

When I play tau, marker lights are broken, supporting fire is a nerf to every other army. Riptides are just WAAC things, and only TFG will bring one, and you are the lowest of the low if you bring more than that. Lets not even consider missile sides, crisis teams and firewarriors.

No matter which army it is, someone will complain, someone will rage when they are beaten, after all, they are infaliable, how else could they have lost? Got to be beardiness, being TFG or playing an over powered codex. Ironically you could beat them with the weakest choices from the weakest codex, and you would still be being beardy.

Take an exalt. This is why I've lost interest in 40k.

madtankbloke wrote:I have 3 armies. Imperial Fists, Necrons and Tau

When I play my imperial fists, everyone complains about how broken grav guns are, and how bikes are undercosted, and how drop pod assaults are lame.

When I play Necrons, reanimation protocols are unfair, MSS and warscythes are beardy and taking more than one anihilation barge or doom/night scythe makes you a WAAC, and don't get me started on wraiths....

When I play tau, marker lights are broken, supporting fire is a nerf to every other army. Riptides are just WAAC things, and only TFG will bring one, and you are the lowest of the low if you bring more than that. Lets not even consider missile sides, crisis teams and firewarriors.

No matter which army it is, someone will complain, someone will rage when they are beaten, after all, they are infaliable, how else could they have lost? Got to be beardiness, being TFG or playing an over powered codex. Ironically you could beat them with the weakest choices from the weakest codex, and you would still be being beardy.

I completely agree with you. This is why I play Warmachine/Hordes now. I enjoy 40k's fluff, but why can't people seem to wrap their heads about how the game is? lol

IDK how strong Tau really is. There has always been an "army of the month" depending on how strong the latest Codex might be for any given army.

We can blame GW for making the game unbalanced and some units overpowered, but the solution is often within our own hands.

If Tau players are finding it hard to get games when they bring four Riptides, they might like to consider bringing fewer.

Plus, more terrain as mentioned above. Most people play with much less terrain on the table than is recommended.

 Red Comet wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:I have 3 armies. Imperial Fists, Necrons and Tau

When I play my imperial fists, everyone complains about how broken grav guns are, and how bikes are undercosted, and how drop pod assaults are lame.

When I play Necrons, reanimation protocols are unfair, MSS and warscythes are beardy and taking more than one anihilation barge or doom/night scythe makes you a WAAC, and don't get me started on wraiths....

When I play tau, marker lights are broken, supporting fire is a nerf to every other army. Riptides are just WAAC things, and only TFG will bring one, and you are the lowest of the low if you bring more than that. Lets not even consider missile sides, crisis teams and firewarriors.

No matter which army it is, someone will complain, someone will rage when they are beaten, after all, they are infaliable, how else could they have lost? Got to be beardiness, being TFG or playing an over powered codex. Ironically you could beat them with the weakest choices from the weakest codex, and you would still be being beardy.

I completely agree with you. This is why I play Warmachine/Hordes now. I enjoy 40k's fluff, but why can't people seem to wrap their heads about how the game is? lol

Yup I agree. Every army seems to have something that will annoy someone!

Don't have a problem playing Tau here, there are the 'meta crew' that runs whatever is hot in tourneys so naturally there's the Eldar-Tau and Tau-Tau. It's annoying sometimes but I like the challenge, feels good to beat a Triple Riptide with a Foot-Guard list.

Honestly, it's partly the Tau guy's fault.

Before a game, you should always make it clear to your opponent if you :

1) want a fun game : you don't bring more than 1 OP unit (Riptide) and try to use unusual units
2) want a semi-competitive game : you bring several OP units or combos.
3) want a no-limit game : you bring all the cheese that you can

If things are clear before the game, nothing can go wrong. If someone agrees to play a no-limit game, he can't blame anyone if things go bad.

That's ridiculous, Nym.

All games are fun games. The whole concept of "competitive 40k" and house-ruling away some things you don't like is pathetic and pointless.

Now, I'm not saying that as a riptide-spamming Vendetta-fielding bitch. I'm saying that as a Sisters player who often comes up against so-called 'broken' lists and normally manages at the very least a draw.

Setting ground rules for games that revolve around what list I can use because you don't want to fight a nasty unit? Yeah. No. Want a specific house-rule? Yeah, you should go to a tourney or play with your friends, I'm not tailoring my list so you can feel better about losing.


But, after all, it is just a game.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
That's ridiculous, Nym. All games are fun games. The whole concept of "competitive 40k" and house-ruling away some things you don't like is pathetic and pointless.

Three days ago I played a pick-up game against a 4 Land Raiders list with my Orks. The only model in my army that could scratch their paint off was my Biker Boss. In the end, the game was a real borefest and I only played it until the end out of respect for my opponent. I didn't have any fun, so I guess your silly assertion "all games are fun games" is pretty much moot.

This game isn't balanced. It has never been balanced. To have fun, both players need to agree on a "cheese" level before the game, otherwise the battle will be one-sided and boring.

PS : there has been quite a lot of "house-ruling is crap" on Dakka lately, and it needs to stop. Whatever you guys will say on the internet won't change the fact that some people use house-rules. You have no power on that, so stop polluting the boards.

So, basically, Nym... you're saying that you failed to build an all-comers army list, so your opponent's specialist army was cheesy?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
So, basically, Nym... you're saying that you failed to build an all-comers army list, so your opponent's specialist army was cheesy?

It's always the other guy's fault.

I don't wanna up my game, I don't wanna buy the models for an army that can actually deal with an opponent, but I demand the other guy plays down to my level and that he buys new, crappier units so I can win.

And then, for good measure, I make sure to call him the WAAC guy. Not me! Noooooo! Telling other people how to play their armies to improve my own chances at winning is not WAAC at all!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
So, basically, Nym... you're saying that you failed to build an all-comers army list, so your opponent's specialist army was cheesy?

Where the hell did I say it was cheesy ?! I said I had no fun. But before the game, my opponent told me it was going to be rough, and I agreed. That's how we proceed here, and it works well. That's doesn't mean *all games* end up being fun, but at least it helps.

Why are you guys berating an Ork player? Do you realize how old his codex is?

LR spam (not three, FOUR. fething FOUR LAND RAIDERS) is not even a "specialist" army. It's a RPS army that's specifically designed to hammer current TAC lists which plan for AV12 and rear AV10 as commonly found in Tau/Eldar lists. It's a "I'm going to lose if they bring ANY melta, but nobody brings melta anyway, so feth yeah" army.

If that 4 LR guy came in here complaining how he keeps losing, you would probably berate him for his army building choices too. Such hypocrisy.

I'm not being a hypocrite.

I would be being a hypocrite if I started complaining that X or Y list was cheesy because it included too many of unit Z.

I'm not. I'm pointing out that not fielding sufficient weapons to take down land raiders is a weakness in your list building, not a statement about how cheesy it is to take four land raiders.

Thud wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
So, basically, Nym... you're saying that you failed to build an all-comers army list, so your opponent's specialist army was cheesy?

It's always the other guy's fault.

I don't wanna up my game, I don't wanna buy the models for an army that can actually deal with an opponent, but I demand the other guy plays down to my level and that he buys new, crappier units so I can win.

And then, for good measure, I make sure to call him the WAAC guy. Not me! Noooooo! Telling other people how to play their armies to improve my own chances at winning is not WAAC at all!

We have had a lot of discussions about this in our club recently - I actually think its a good idea to chat about what sor tof game you want to play - some people only enjoy highly competative games, some people only enjoy loose, fluffy games/scenarios - most people are somewhere in the middle.

No one should have to "up their game " if they don't want to - in the same way no one should have to play with "weak" units if they don;t want to. However there is a case for agreeing what you are going to play in advance - the same was as tournament set artifical limits and ignore some elements of the actual rules for that envrion. Otherwise people eventually just walk away and do something else.................

In all honesty 40k is in deep imbalance, it is too deep in imbalance that for me it makes the game un-fun to play.

Yeah the IG player should not have agreed to play that game if he was going to turn his back as soon as he saw the Riptides, but on the other side the Tau player should have thought why people don't want to play him, if this is repeated against him imo.

What irritates me slightly on this thread as I have seen at times with other threads is the usual competitive crowd barging in ranting on how they shouldn't have to change their own lists and how they don't want to buy mediocre units, whilst also implying heavily that their opponent has to play at their level in order to compete with them, so wait let me get this straight, in order to combat Tau Riptides all over the place as CSM I have to buy a bunch of "Competitive" units that I don't want to buy, such as Helldrakes, Oblits, Typhus and a shed load of Zombies or add Tzeench CD allies with more DP, Grimore on someone, screamers and Fateweaver... stuff I don't really want to use just so YOU want an evenly balanced game? Sorry but if your not going to pay for mediocre units against me I 'aint buying the competitive units you want me to use. Again no one says this but in thread's like these its always heavily implied.

This is why I agree with Nym's 3 choices, the only thing I disagree with is using one somewhat "OP" unit but because of the heaps of amounts of grey area and deep imbalance of the codex's with the rules, you should say before you begin your game with your opponent if you just there for a game, a few drinks and a laugh or if you want to have a competitive game, Which is a shame since a good ruleset would allow both types of players to have a game and both people would have fun, but all this is in my opinion (awaiting tons of soap and bashing from everybody else, as I would assume for putting my opinion on the internet as apparently my opinion would be "wrong").

Also to note: I don't hold it against my opponent when having a game with what he or she brings if I accept the game, then I play that game... even if it means the game drags for myself..

Just my two and a half cents on the subject:
Any game where spamming a unit (like Riptides) is so common, especially to the extent where the competitive lists are effectively 'well I can fir X of these unit so I will take X and then fill out the rest of the list', the problem is not with the players but the game itself.

I won't blame players for taking legal lists that are overly nasty, and I'll play them just like anyone else, but playing those people is exactly what ruined the game for me.

The primary reason to play 40k is for fun, if the IG player knew he wasn't going to have fun he was right to back out of the game. As others have mentioned this game is very poorly balanced, and composition decisions can even further throw the balance off. I enjoy a challenge, if you have watched my battle reports you know I like the close games much better than the blow outs. Somethings to think about as both players in this scenario.

Is it appropriate to bring a killer list to a pick up game without warning your opponent prior to deployment?

Should you feel obligated to just setup your models so your opponent can use them as an ego pump/shooting gallery?

I think most problems in this game can be solved with pre-game communication. You don't necessarily have to tell your opponent exactly what you are playing but there is nothing wrong with saying I am playing a suit spam list with a couple riptides, or I have several flyers in my army, so they can at least prepare to make it a challenge.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Just my two and a half cents on the subject:
Any game where spamming a unit (like Riptides) is so common, especially to the extent where the competitive lists are effectively 'well I can fir X of these unit so I will take X and then fill out the rest of the list', the problem is not with the players but the game itself.

I won't blame players for taking legal lists that are overly nasty, and I'll play them just like anyone else, but playing those people is exactly what ruined the game for me.

Not really. I'd rather have a game that gives more options, possibly even broken options, and trust in the maturity of players who (for the most part) know that not all available options are appropriate at all times and that a minimum of civilized pre-game communication can easily ensure a fun game for both sides, than a game that is too restrictive to do anything whacky.

It's the same with the ever-recurring Forge World-legality discussion. Just because an option exists, doesn't mean it's appropriate to make use of it at all times and in all circumstances. If in (even the slightest) doubt that it might diminish the overall fun of the experience, try opening your mouth to talk about it before feelings (or egos) get hurt.

Not to mention that there are always different options to go about it. Said Tau Player above could've, to name just one idea, entered to store saying "I want to test my really hard competitive Tau list for a tourny next week. I realize the armies you guys have with you might not be tournament optimized. Would you still allow me to test my mean-tournament-machine against you if I'd use 10% less points than you do?". Or something of that kind.

My .02 cents on the topic.

Nym had a response to a land raider. It was only one (because realistically, a balanced space marine army is only going to have one, maybe two land raiders) but he had a response to it on his HQ choice. Most lists, especially in the current 'meta' are this way in my experience. You have one to three units that can deal with high A.V. reliably.

Nym made a statement that games of 40k can be less fun for one side or the other if the match is a fore-gone conclusion before the first dice is even rolled. Doesn't mean the match can't be played and both sides at least partially enjoy the match on some level. That's not a deficiency in his list building, or the prowess of an opponents list building, but a fact of life.

If you want to ensure both sides enjoy the game a bit more, putting additional restrictions on the list building over and above agreed upon point total, or having a gentleman's agreement before the match to try and stick to a theme, or limit the number of specific units or models fielded for variety's sake is perfectly reasonable, and acceptable. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. Not every dice dropped while playing Warhammer 40,000 needs to be done so with the mindset of a hardcore tournament style match.

I would advise, Furyou Miko, that you not put words in another poster's mouth.

Nym never once uttered one word of complaint. He made a statement of fact based on his own experiences. That game wasn't fun to him. He didn't say it was cheesy, or that his opponent somehow tricked him. He went into the game knowing it was stacked against him and made the best of it. Doesn't mean the other player couldn't have opted to bring a different list when he saw what Nym was playing does it? It's called being conscientious.

That's all I've got to say on the matter. Take it for what you like.

-Red__Thirst-

There is no way for a IG list , unless he tailors , to beat a dual or triple tide list . No wonder the IG man didn't want to play. Waste of time

 Red__Thirst wrote:
My .02 cents on the topic.

Nym had a response to a land raider. It was only one (because realistically, a balanced space marine army is only going to have one, maybe two land raiders) but he had a response to it on his HQ choice. Most lists, especially in the current 'meta' are this way in my experience. You have one to three units that can deal with high A.V. reliably.

Nym made a statement that games of 40k can be less fun for one side or the other if the match is a fore-gone conclusion before the first dice is even rolled. Doesn't mean the match can't be played and both sides at least partially enjoy the match on some level. That's not a deficiency in his list building, or the prowess of an opponents list building, but a fact of life.

If you want to ensure both sides enjoy the game a bit more, putting additional restrictions on the list building over and above agreed upon point total, or having a gentleman's agreement before the match to try and stick to a theme, or limit the number of specific units or models fielded for variety's sake is perfectly reasonable, and acceptable. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun. Not every dice dropped while playing Warhammer 40,000 needs to be done so with the mindset of a hardcore tournament style match.

I would advise, Furyou Miko, that you not put words in another poster's mouth.

Nym never once uttered one word of complaint. He made a statement of fact based on his own experiences. That game wasn't fun to him. He didn't say it was cheesy, or that his opponent somehow tricked him. He went into the game knowing it was stacked against him and made the best of it. Doesn't mean the other player couldn't have opted to bring a different list when he saw what Nym was playing does it? It's called being conscientious.

That's all I've got to say on the matter. Take it for what you like.

-Red__Thirst-

thread seems to have been highjacked a bit. As for the 1-3 options to deal with Av14, I disagree. I go by the motto that if it can reasonably hurt AV14, then it has a much better chance to take out AV13 which is where I want to be. My gaming group has been bringing the AV13 Blood Angel wall out of mothballs. Baal Predators, Vindicators, and standard Preds. My particular bane is Annihilation Barges, most people don't give those things the credit they deserve.

As a Tau player I am seeing some of this anti Tau angst which is why I am glad the new Space Marine codex has been kind to Imperial Fists. I don't even field the standard 2-3 Riptides with markerlights everywhere. In my last 2 games I ran an O'vesa-Farsight star that was close to 1000 points and could go toe to toe with most CC units in the game, it could shoot the ever loving crap out of you but it has Farsight, O'Vesa and a Lightsaber wielding Enclave Commander who could take down tyranid MCs and to top it all off it could jsj and was scoring. It wasn't what most people would consider a tournament winner although I am thinking of taking this to a tournament.

I think the biggest problem with Tau is dice manipulation. After a thoroughly dissapointing game of Axis and Allies: D-Day I remarked to my cousin that if my life came down to a single roll of a 6 sided die with a 50-50 chance of living or dying, I would die every single time. People remark about their luck with dice well I have the absolute worst luck when rolling dice. To hit, to wound, to go first, the deployment map and mission and my personal favorite, the random game length. If I need another turn to win the game, it ends at the end of 5, if my opponent needs and extra turn he gets it.

You might think I am overreacting and being pessimistic, but its true. At a 3 round tournament I will be competitive in 2 rounds and then in the third every roll will go against me, maybe I slighted someone I shouldn't have in a past life I dunnno, but back to dice manipulation...

Whether it is through markerlights or the Multi spectrum Suite and Command and Control Node, Tau get so many rerolls and so much ignores cover its really unfair. When I roll that deathstar I mention above people just shake their head and say whatever. There is no hiding from it and with jsj it will catch you. I remember when O'Vesa just stepped on a Space Marine Chapter Master and he failed his save, my opponent couldn't believe it, he lost in a challenge with a TH/SS to Tau of all armies.

Its not the Riptides, without markerlight support or a support commander a Riptide is really no better than an Imp Guard battle cannon, that is very difficult to take down. Outside of force weapons or a D cannon there is no good way to kill a Riptide. The problem with O'Vesa is that you just LOS those types of wounds onto drones or if need be another crisis suit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:
There is no way for a IG list , unless he tailors , to beat a dual or triple tide list . No wonder the IG man didn't want to play. Waste of time

Sure there is you take a couple very underrated tanks, the executioner.