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I'd argue the 6th edition rule book basically lets Tau dictate a lot of what goes on. Assault is supposed to be the answer to Tau, but in practice, it's better to play their own game and shoot back. That's why Eldar, with their insane horde of S6/7 shots, are the best counter to Tau.

 AtoMaki wrote:
So yeah, from my part: if I decided that I would never play against Tau, I wouldn't have any opponents left. Out of the 24 active 40k players, we have ~19 Tau (plus 3 Eldar, 1 Greycron and 1 SoB)...

Wow that is quite the skewed army distribution. Blah...so many Tau. Boring...thankfully in my usual group we have a lot of armies represented: CSM, CD, SM, SW, DA, SoB, Nids, Orks, Tau and IG. I would go elsewhere if so many players all had the same army in my group...yeah I know some folks don't have the option of playing elsewhere, but in that case I might just stop playing for a while in general.

Skriker

like I said I play heaps of tau, and riptides are just not a big deal... my GK's walk right over them, and simply out shoot them at 24" or outmanuver them...

90% of taus turtle, and that is an EASY strat to counter,

we play a game filled to the brim with monstrous creatures... If your army cannot deal with 3 or more monsters, thats your problem for ignoring the meta.

there are wraithknights, dreadknights, wraithlords, daemon pricense, flying circus, helldrakes ect ect ect...

all get complained about...

riptides are at the BOTTOM of the list for MC's as far as I am concerned

 easysauce wrote:
helldrakes ect ect ect...

Not being a MC but same point

 AtoMaki wrote:
Yesterday, I went to my gaming club and out of the 4 40k games I saw, there was 4 Tau vs Tau. Okay, one of them was a Farsight vs Tau .

So yeah, from my part: if I decided that I would never play against Tau, I wouldn't have any opponents left. Out of the 24 active 40k players, we have ~19 Tau (plus 3 Eldar, 1 Greycron and 1 SoB)...

Wow, this seems incredibly skewed and difficult to fathom. We certainly aren't seeing that here. We've got one Enclave Player(Me) and 2-3 other Tau players out over 20-30 players. I know my Enclave is set up to bloody normal Tau, but struggles to some other armies and Eldar.

With that many Tau players, I can't believe someone didn't figure out that they can just play Eldar, put down two Wraithknights, and win just about every one of their games.

The Meta is constantly evolving. Some armies are on the bottom, mostly the older 5e books, but most of the 6e books are pretty well balanced with each other. Yes, there are a couple of problem units and builds ie Wave Serpents, 2+/2++Rerollable, Baleflamer, but overall this edition is shaping up better than some of the others. I'm looking forward to seeing what the addition of Nids, IG, and Orks do to the meta by the end of early 2014.

I definitely see the potential for this to be the best edition of 40k yet, just as 5th was better than 4th, 6th is better than 5th and the later half of the edition is better than the first.


Martel, just wait, BA will get another update soon enough. Every one of your posts sounds the same, lamenting your poor BA and how under-costed Eldar and Tau firepower are and how they mulch T4 and 3+AS for breakfast. Etc. We get it, but the new SM dex isn't doing terrible and the later half will be the Imperium's hayday once again as we see IG, BA, SW, and GK to Orks, DE, and Necron rounding out the Edition.

Either things will come out to balance out some of the current builds, or the meta will adjust as will player skill in facing such lists. The Meta is constantly changing and evolving. And with the rate GW has been putting out content things haven't gotten a chance to really settle and stagnate.


IMO, the 2+/2++ Rerollable units and Wave Serpents are much rougher to handle and palette than the Tau.

 Skriker wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
So yeah, from my part: if I decided that I would never play against Tau, I wouldn't have any opponents left. Out of the 24 active 40k players, we have ~19 Tau (plus 3 Eldar, 1 Greycron and 1 SoB)...

Wow that is quite the skewed army distribution. Blah...so many Tau. Boring...thankfully in my usual group we have a lot of armies represented: CSM, CD, SM, SW, DA, SoB, Nids, Orks, Tau and IG. I would go elsewhere if so many players all had the same army in my group...yeah I know some folks don't have the option of playing elsewhere, but in that case I might just stop playing for a while in general.

Skriker

Oh, make no mistake, those tau players weren't always Tau. They have lots of different armies but they don't play them. In my experience, Tau vs Tau is awesome, definitely the best mirror matchup after IG vs IG.

 Zagman wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Yesterday, I went to my gaming club and out of the 4 40k games I saw, there was 4 Tau vs Tau. Okay, one of them was a Farsight vs Tau .

So yeah, from my part: if I decided that I would never play against Tau, I wouldn't have any opponents left. Out of the 24 active 40k players, we have ~19 Tau (plus 3 Eldar, 1 Greycron and 1 SoB)...

Wow, this seems incredibly skewed and difficult to fathom. We certainly aren't seeing that here. We've got one Enclave Player(Me) and 2-3 other Tau players out over 20-30 players. I know my Enclave is set up to bloody normal Tau, but struggles to some other armies and Eldar.

With that many Tau players, I can't believe someone didn't figure out that they can just play Eldar, put down two Wraithknights, and win just about every one of their games.

The Meta is constantly evolving. Some armies are on the bottom, mostly the older 5e books, but most of the 6e books are pretty well balanced with each other. Yes, there are a couple of problem units and builds ie Wave Serpents, 2+/2++Rerollable, Baleflamer, but overall this edition is shaping up better than some of the others. I'm looking forward to seeing what the addition of Nids, IG, and Orks do to the meta by the end of early 2014.

I definitely see the potential for this to be the best edition of 40k yet, just as 5th was better than 4th, 6th is better than 5th and the later half of the edition is better than the first.


Martel, just wait, BA will get another update soon enough. Every one of your posts sounds the same, lamenting your poor BA and how under-costed Eldar and Tau firepower are and how they mulch T4 and 3+AS for breakfast. Etc. We get it, but the new SM dex isn't doing terrible and the later half will be the Imperium's hayday once again as we see IG, BA, SW, and GK to Orks, DE, and Necron rounding out the Edition.

Either things will come out to balance out some of the current builds, or the meta will adjust as will player skill in facing such lists. The Meta is constantly changing and evolving. And with the rate GW has been putting out content things haven't gotten a chance to really settle and stagnate.


IMO, the 2+/2++ Rerollable units and Wave Serpents are much rougher to handle and palette than the Tau.

My posts sound the same because GW has made this game very easy to analyze at this point. You can scratch SW, BA, and GK off your list as having any impact, because they revolve around meqs/teqs. The Orks and Tyranids might upset the balance, but if they have enough bodies to compete with Tau/Eldar, they are going to completely overwhelm marines, because we have a fraction of the firepower of the Eldar or Tau.

to the post above.

except my GK have what is arguable the BEST hard counter to riptide spam...

IE force weapons galore, and the ability to put them on shunting units that also mow down infantry,


right now, things are fairly balanced, more so then at any other point in my 15 yrs of 40k, and once all the dex's are up to date, it will hopefully be even bettter,

I do feel for you if you are a BA player, but they can still compete, and are better off then say, orks, which I also play and still win/have fun with.

not only that, but we have a new codex inquisition coming out, that might shake things up too...

Tau are rediculously easy to outmanuver, they have glaring weaknesses, and are very far from autowinning just through riptide spam...

im more worried about serpant spam, but even that, I really have had few issues with, because its such an OBVIOUS tactic, that I have already planned how to deal with it...

I just outright won a tourney with my GK's... playing nothing but TAU spam, and eldar serpant spam, and massacred EVERY SINGLE ONE.

why?

because tau gunlines are obviously overplayed, and my army had counter tactics in mind..

because eldar serpant spam is obs overplayed, and my army has counter tactics in mind...

Martel732 wrote:
Marines can get five ASM in a pod with two flamers for 80 pts I think for anti-pathfinder duty, but I'm not sure how good this unit is for general usage. Marines can't escape the truth that 3+ armor and T4 are their cornerstones, and 3+ armor and T4 sucks now. Okay, paying what GW charges for 3+ and T4 armor sucks.

95 points actually for 5 asm with 2 flamers

 easysauce wrote:
to the post above.

except my GK have what is arguable the BEST hard counter to riptide spam...

IE force weapons galore, and the ability to put them on shunting units that also mow down infantry,


right now, things are fairly balanced, more so then at any other point in my 15 yrs of 40k, and once all the dex's are up to date, it will hopefully be even bettter,

I do feel for you if you are a BA player, but they can still compete, and are better off then say, orks, which I also play and still win/have fun with.

not only that, but we have a new codex inquisition coming out, that might shake things up too...

Tau are rediculously easy to outmanuver, they have glaring weaknesses, and are very far from autowinning just through riptide spam...

im more worried about serpant spam, but even that, I really have had few issues with, because its such an OBVIOUS tactic, that I have already planned how to deal with it...

I just outright won a tourney with my GK's... playing nothing but TAU spam, and eldar serpant spam, and massacred EVERY SINGLE ONE.

why?

because tau gunlines are obviously overplayed, and my army had counter tactics in mind..

because eldar serpant spam is obs overplayed, and my army has counter tactics in mind...

Orks are much better than BA atm, because they loose far fewer points per wound to a S6 Eldar shot. I've been tabled by Eldar in 3 turns. Not. A. Thing. Left. I don't see this happening with Orks.

Allies has screwed the game over for the sake of sales. Fluff aside(and face it, few people play allies for fluff) the reason people bring allies is to shore up a weak point in their own army, which negates any balance there might have been.

That aside, and I will walk away from a riptide list, what the GW needs to do is take a page from Bolt action. You can have 0-1 of this, 0-2 of this, 1-3 of infantry squads, etc etc. Now allow for multiple lists in one book, Tau suit list, tau mech list, Tau Manta list etc. This would go a long way to reducing spam units which are turning people against the game.

Martel732 wrote:


My posts sound the same because GW has made this game very easy to analyze at this point. You can scratch SW, BA, and GK off your list as having any impact, because they revolve around meqs/teqs. The Orks and Tyranids might upset the balance, but if they have enough bodies to compete with Tau/Eldar, they are going to completely overwhelm marines, because we have a fraction of the firepower of the Eldar or Tau.

Because those codices can't possibly come out with something that will put a damper on meta? Truth is, we don't know what those new Codices will bring nor how they will affect the Meta. The Meta is already changing and 2-3 Serpents is appearing to be the sweet spot for competitive lists. Bring something that allows you to handle those threats and combat them effectively. Even fielding an old codex against Tau or Eldar you shouldn't lose every game, you may be at a disadvantage, but that is part of the game. As the Imperial codices get updated we'll see better pricing on units, you'll save ~2pts per marine with fewer mandatory upgrades, dev squads will get 20-50pts cheaper, better priced vehicles, etc. That will make a huge difference. You complain about cost, but we are going to see point reductions in line with the SM Dex which is pretty good.

Martel732, you are kind of a malcontent pessimist. Maybe you should devote more of you time to to work on tactics to help combat the Meta, pick up another army or work on SM even with BA allies until BA get their next boost and all the SM players complain about how BA are strictly better than SM again, or try and enjoy the hobby.

You make the state of the game out to be much worse than it actually is. Its the best I've seen yet, through 4th, 5th, and 6th. Is it perfect, no. Are there things I wish were changed, yes. Am I going to let them overly get to me and whine and complain about it incessantly, no.

You appear to have been playing 40k for many years through many editions and it certainly doesn't sound like you've been happy at any point ever, what is going to change now? Voicing your opinion is one thing, doing so incessantly to the point of beating a dead horse become counter productive. Try and be constructive where possible, you do have some valid points, use them to better threads instead of reiterating the same complaints over and over again. Take the state of the game how it is and make the most of it because its what we've got and that is still pretty awesome and getting better every edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Col. Dash wrote:
Allies has screwed the game over for the sake of sales. Fluff aside(and face it, few people play allies for fluff) the reason people bring allies is to shore up a weak point in their own army, which negates any balance there might have been.

That aside, and I will walk away from a riptide list, what the GW needs to do is take a page from Bolt action. You can have 0-1 of this, 0-2 of this, 1-3 of infantry squads, etc etc. Now allow for multiple lists in one book, Tau suit list, tau mech list, Tau Manta list etc. This would go a long way to reducing spam units which are turning people against the game.

Because certain armies complete lack of AA was balanced and letting them ally in units from another codex, possibly a newer one with options to combat the meta is horridly balanced...

We've seen some big changes in 6th, as the edition goes on things are turning out to be pretty balanced.


No one enjoys having their choices dictated, there will still be broken builds and units, we already have FOC restrictions which have to be circumvented in very specific ways, ie allied supplemental codex, etc. All of which comes at an opportunity cost. The Farsight Enclave list that chooses to ally Tau for a BuffCommander and 4th Riptide had to choose to not ally in Eldar for two Wave Serpents or Eldar Jetbikes, a Wraithknight, and a Farseer, or Tigerius and a unit of Grav Centurions, etc.

Its all opportunity cost and its the game we have. Its a very different game than it was in 5th, we must adapt and IMHO we will find the game in later 6th to be the best we've seen yet. But, that is my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

Martel732 wrote:

Orks are much better than BA atm, because they loose far fewer points per wound to a S6 Eldar shot. I've been tabled by Eldar in 3 turns. Not. A. Thing. Left. I don't see this happening with Orks.

orks using green tide, might arguably be better, in that particular match up, but the orkcodex as a whole, is the worst one right now. one landraider, and you lose with orks, provided your opponent knows you only have two str 10 attackers, and they only work in CC

you have ranged dmg, force weapons, melta, ect ect... whereas one landraider will normally kill an entire ork army.....

again, my GK"s are just expensive marines in terms of dying to eldar, they are WORSE off then your BA in that respect that I am just t4 3+ models, except I have even FEWER of them then you, and no FNP options... yet I just played, and WON<, a tourny filled with tau/eldar/taudar spam lists (over 50 people playing in 40k division too) literally 50% of my games were vs eldar, 25% were vs tau, 25% vs other and I basically tabled the eldar EVERY TIME. (they had one serpant left in two cases, or a couple swooping hawks in another)

if my MEQ's are doing fine against eldar, your MEQ's would be ok too... provided you update your tactics..

honestly, eldar have been the "anti marine" since 3rd ed.. warwalkers were killing armies of space marines ages ago, not much has changed.


I have made and played some mean builds from codex BA in its current form, that those builds of today are not the builds that people were USED TO, is the problem, not that there are no good builds for the codex...

There are a lot of Tau players at my FLGS and I have noticed they tend to play each other a lot. Probably about 40% of players have a Tau army or Tau allies for whatever other list they are running. There is a lot of confusion over who owns what models at the end of games.

With those numbers, it's kind of hard to not play against Tau. The other common armies I see are Grey Knights and Space Wolves, which a lot of people also invested in towards the end of 5th edition. I play CSMs and do enjoy games more when I get to fight IG, Space Marines and Orks, which are the other armies a lot of people own.

Since the release of the 6th edition Tau codex, my games against that race have improved. The side effect of Tau players fighting each other all the time is that they don't really learn much about how to beat other armies.

Col. Dash wrote:
Allies has screwed the game over for the sake of sales. Fluff aside(and face it, few people play allies for fluff) the reason people bring allies is to shore up a weak point in their own army, which negates any balance there might have been.

That aside, and I will walk away from a riptide list, what the GW needs to do is take a page from Bolt action. You can have 0-1 of this, 0-2 of this, 1-3 of infantry squads, etc etc. Now allow for multiple lists in one book, Tau suit list, tau mech list, Tau Manta list etc. This would go a long way to reducing spam units which are turning people against the game.

Word.

The final balance factor among codexes used to be that most codexes had one area of weakness.

Allies allow you to cover your weakness.

So use your rules to MAKE a weakness.

Makumba wrote:

I play Chaos and I know players don't want to see 3 Heldrakes eating up their troop choices. So maybe I play 1 Heldrake instead? Or no Heldrake if it's really that much of a problem? I know it's not because the rest of my army is pretty useless, but at least I'm willing to meet my players half-way there.

But then you can play only 1160pts games , or do you buy extra units you wouldn't normaly want just so that other people can pick the army you should play in a way they like ? And considering different people may find different things bad , you would have to buy a lot of models just to keep them happy and even then they may just not want to play , because they don't like you , don't have time or don't like to play against your army no matter what you bought. Few people can start with a 3k points army , just so that other may pick 1500 armies they want to play against. And knowing human nature they will pick stuff they can own the easiest .

I'm not sure I follow. I have a finite supply of units I can field at any time to barely come up with a decent FoC qualifying, Points qualifying army. Hence why I play "Apoc" or Pointless most of the time, and my opponents are kind enough to meet me half way and not totally overwhelm my army in the interest of keeping the game fun.

I guess because I can make this compromise and so can all of the players I've played against (cannot think of a time where someone has turned me down, except when they had to go) I don't understand why others seem to take it as such a grave insult.

Is the insinuation that because a player might not want to deal with a Heldrake that I would need a daemon prince to meet that requirement or something? Because then no, unless I have the unit sitting aside not being used for some reason, I would just drop the unit and leave it at that. Am I going to suffer more for it? Hell yeah! Especially with the limitations already placed on my army (like no transports).

 easysauce wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Orks are much better than BA atm, because they loose far fewer points per wound to a S6 Eldar shot. I've been tabled by Eldar in 3 turns. Not. A. Thing. Left. I don't see this happening with Orks.

orks using green tide, might arguably be better, in that particular match up, but the orkcodex as a whole, is the worst one right now. one landraider, and you lose with orks, provided your opponent knows you only have two str 10 attackers, and they only work in CC

you have ranged dmg, force weapons, melta, ect ect... whereas one landraider will normally kill an entire ork army.....

again, my GK"s are just expensive marines in terms of dying to eldar, they are WORSE off then your BA in that respect that I am just t4 3+ models, except I have even FEWER of them then you, and no FNP options... yet I just played, and WON<, a tourny filled with tau/eldar/taudar spam lists (over 50 people playing in 40k division too) literally 50% of my games were vs eldar, 25% were vs tau, 25% vs other and I basically tabled the eldar EVERY TIME. (they had one serpant left in two cases, or a couple swooping hawks in another)

if my MEQ's are doing fine against eldar, your MEQ's would be ok too... provided you update your tactics..

honestly, eldar have been the "anti marine" since 3rd ed.. warwalkers were killing armies of space marines ages ago, not much has changed.


I have made and played some mean builds from codex BA in its current form, that those builds of today are not the builds that people were USED TO, is the problem, not that there are no good builds for the codex...

It's unlikely that GK have fewer numbers after BA pay for said FNP generating sanguinary priests. And fast tanks. And overcosted libbies. In general, GK are less overcosted than BA.

I'd really like to know what tactics to update when I put models down on the table and then the game consists of the Eldar player telling me which ones to pick up. I can't ever count on getting LoS blocking terrain, and as has been pointed out, LoS blockers can be used by the Eldar to their advantage as well.

If I wanted to tailor for Eldar, I'd probably do better. But then how would that stack up against Daemons? Or your GK? Or Helldrakes? That's the real problem I see. No matter what "tactics" you are using, marines are wasting a lot of points on each individual marine, even at 14pts/model. ATSKNF doesn't matter when the xenos just kill you. Grenades don't matter when you can't get close enough to use them. Or, if you want to use drop pods, you can't stay close enough after the Eldar player gets to move.

I know people are saying that TAC lists are dead, so then what am I supposed do for unknown opponents? I'm open to suggestions, actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


My posts sound the same because GW has made this game very easy to analyze at this point. You can scratch SW, BA, and GK off your list as having any impact, because they revolve around meqs/teqs. The Orks and Tyranids might upset the balance, but if they have enough bodies to compete with Tau/Eldar, they are going to completely overwhelm marines, because we have a fraction of the firepower of the Eldar or Tau.

Because those codices can't possibly come out with something that will put a damper on meta? Truth is, we don't know what those new Codices will bring nor how they will affect the Meta. The Meta is already changing and 2-3 Serpents is appearing to be the sweet spot for competitive lists. Bring something that allows you to handle those threats and combat them effectively. Even fielding an old codex against Tau or Eldar you shouldn't lose every game, you may be at a disadvantage, but that is part of the game. As the Imperial codices get updated we'll see better pricing on units, you'll save ~2pts per marine with fewer mandatory upgrades, dev squads will get 20-50pts cheaper, better priced vehicles, etc. That will make a huge difference. You complain about cost, but we are going to see point reductions in line with the SM Dex which is pretty good.

Martel732, you are kind of a malcontent pessimist. Maybe you should devote more of you time to to work on tactics to help combat the Meta, pick up another army or work on SM even with BA allies until BA get their next boost and all the SM players complain about how BA are strictly better than SM again, or try and enjoy the hobby.

You make the state of the game out to be much worse than it actually is. Its the best I've seen yet, through 4th, 5th, and 6th. Is it perfect, no. Are there things I wish were changed, yes. Am I going to let them overly get to me and whine and complain about it incessantly, no.

You appear to have been playing 40k for many years through many editions and it certainly doesn't sound like you've been happy at any point ever, what is going to change now? Voicing your opinion is one thing, doing so incessantly to the point of beating a dead horse become counter productive. Try and be constructive where possible, you do have some valid points, use them to better threads instead of reiterating the same complaints over and over again. Take the state of the game how it is and make the most of it because its what we've got and that is still pretty awesome and getting better every edition.

I will refer you to my above post for some rebuttal. I still think meqs are overcosted for the way 6th edition is written and how Xeno lists operate.

I believe Ailaros has summed this problem up well. 6th edition is currently an edition of gun lines. Specifically, mech gun lines. The marines still have decidedly poor mechanized options, even with the price drops. My challenge to you is this: let's say Orks and Tyranids are world beaters. How does this help meqs? It doesn't. It will just make the Taudar more desperate to pump out more shots. I don't see how this kind of meta shake up is going to help.

Martel732 wrote:


I believe Ailaros has summed this problem up well. 6th edition is currently an edition of gun lines. Specifically, mech gun lines. The marines still have decidedly poor mechanized options, even with the price drops. My challenge to you is this: let's say Orks and Tyranids are world beaters. How does this help meqs? It doesn't. It will just make the Taudar more desperate to pump out more shots. I don't see how this kind of meta shake up is going to help.

Challenge. Accepted!(Stand in his best Barney Pose and stares off into the distance).......


Hmm... Off the top of my head I'd say Battlewagons become more prominent with a points drop while keeping a cost effective Deff Rolla and an increase in speed aka "Ramming Speed". The Meta now gets hit with Meta buster in the form of cheaper and more readily available AV14 hulls sporting a weapon capable of wrecking Wave Serpents and Tank Shocking Riptides.

These Battle Wagons would be extremely difficult for the Eldar and Tau armies to handle while Marine and Imperial Armies would be ok. This would force a shift in list design as the Bright Lance becomes more viable over the default Scatter Laser/Shield Wave Serpent. The need for Fusions may see a decrease in the number of Riptides. Tau may be inclined to ally in Marines or some other army for anti AV14 options.

The meta also sees an increase in viable and mobile CC threats forcing a shift away from the Gunlines.


That is one simple little thing that could positively affect the meta. Its not a far cry from something we could likely see, and its affect would send ripples through the meta with the two most affected armies being Eldar and Tau.


Or, maybe there is a Tyranid ability which ie Shadows in the Warp which allows you to shut down a particular power or psyker or a blanket dampening. Something that makes the Psychic Deathstars less reliable and mitigates the 2++ Rerollable Psychic Lovefest currently going on. With Nids becoming much more prominent the Psychic Deathstars are now at a huge disadvantage and are lose a step against a prominent army.


Maybe BA come out with some new unit or trick that can cost effectively nerf a Wave Serpent and we see Marines ally it in over their Tau/Eldar allies.


There are so many subtle and not so subtle things than can affect and alter the Meta. Its the game we play. There are so many possibilities and things that could be in the upcoming codex that can turn our current top tier armies in footnoots in 40k history. The Meta is constantly changing.

What are the marines going to do to these battle wagons exactly? Anything put into the game that wrecks Wave Serpents will wreck marines even worse. Remember that one of the problems facing marines is the Imperial pricing scale for heavy weapons.

I understand what you're trying to say, but the fact is that the Taudar are better than meqs in the phase of the game that really matters: shooting. Whatever scary stuff the Orks and Tyranids get, the Taudar will be able to kill it faster than meq lists. Even if they have to change out a few weapons, they'll still be better at the shooting phase.

Martel732 wrote:
What are the marines going to do to these battle wagons exactly? Anything put into the game that wrecks Wave Serpents will wreck marines even worse. Remember that one of the problems facing marines is the Imperial pricing scale for heavy weapons.

I understand what you're trying to say, but the fact is that the Taudar are better than meqs in the phase of the game that really matters: shooting. Whatever scary stuff the Orks and Tyranids get, the Taudar will be able to kill it faster than meq lists. Even if they have to change out a few weapons, they'll still be better at the shooting phase.

I imagine they'll simply blow them up with their easy access to cheap melta Weapons, possibly with Drop Pods and cheap disposable units. Or any other cheap melta problem.

For a Meta Shift to occur, it wouldn't have to be drastically overpowered to shift the Meta. A new book for Orks, and some advantage for Battle Wagons and the sheer newness and their advantages compared to Tau/Eldar and the Meta would begin to shift.

Yes, they are better at the shooting phase. But, anything that causes Eldar and Tau lists to swap weapons will make a big differene for Marine players. To further my New and Improved Battlewagon example, any Wave Serpent or WarWalker that drops his Scatter Lasers for Bright Lances greatly helps Marine players. A Twinlinked Bright lance(Needed to slow down those Battle Wagons) kills half the marines a Twin Linked Scatter Laser does, and that is before we factor in the Twinlinking of the Serpent Shield or Shuriken Cannon. Maybe Eldar start to bring Fire Dragons again, or swap out some of the WraithScytes for WraithGuard, all to slow down those damn Wagons. All the while the marines are using the meltas they've always equipped and smile at their 2/3 explodes chances on a Pen.

Fact is, it is nearly impossible for us to predict how the Meta is going to respond, especially with so many unknowns coming in the future. Maybe the Guard Dex will bring cheap Autocannon Spam the likes we've never seen before, enough to put a serious damper on those Wave Serpents while the marines in their PA are pretty resilient and start to break out the LRs again. Maybe Orks will bring about a new melee focus and resurgence of AV14. Maybe Nids will bring weak but ultra fast assault elements that don't phase marines in CC but shred Tau and eldar in CC and are fast enough to be there Turn 2.

We aren't all knowing. You may "understand" what I am saying, but that doesn't stop you from painting the hobby and state of the game in your pessimistic tones all the same. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If you aren't happy with and never have been with the hobby, maybe 40k just isn't for you. Or maybe you need to take a breath and see what the new codices and meta will bring. And always have faith in almighty GW, theis Speeze Muhreens sell too well to suck for too long. There hasn't been a single codex that has reigned supreme for more than a half or third of an edition since like 4th.

Marines still aren't costed to have "disposable units". Nearly every marine player that has used that approach has fallen before my BA. There are no cheap melta solutions in the marine codex, because even in the new codex, marines aren't cheap enough to throw away.

We can't predict the future, but I think the odds of things getting significantly better for meqs is low. Basically, meqs are enslaved to the effectiveness of the 3+ save, since the stat lines and grenades are all wasted points most of the time. The 3+ save is likely to get even worse against the mass assault of the Nids and Orks.

Instead of calling me pessimistic, refute my assertions.

I still remember my elation in 3rd edition when they made power armor worth a damn. Unfortunately, they massively overcompensated and I felt dirty fielding BA by the end of 3rd. That's not what I want either. But the new meta is very much a return to 2ndesque conditions for meqs.

Martel732 wrote:
Marines still aren't costed to have "disposable units". Nearly every marine player that has used that approach has fallen before my BA. There are no cheap melta solutions in the marine codex, because even in the new codex, marines aren't cheap enough to throw away.

We can't predict the future, but I think the odds of things getting significantly better for meqs is low. Basically, meqs are enslaved to the effectiveness of the 3+ save, since the stat lines and grenades are all wasted points most of the time. The 3+ save is likely to get even worse against the mass assault of the Nids and Orks.

Instead of calling me pessimistic, refute my assertions.

I still remember my elation in 3rd edition when they made power armor worth a damn. Unfortunately, they massively overcompensated and I felt dirty fielding BA by the end of 3rd. That's not what I want either. But the new meta is very much a return to 2ndesque conditions for meqs.

Your assertions don't mean much in an ever changing Meta. Things are rarely as bad as you make them out to be. There are viable SM/BA builds out there. Drop Pods, Bikes, Air Force are all viable in the current meta against Eldar and Tau.

You made the assertion earlier that BA were more overcosted than GK!

You whine about one unit, then that unit is no longer OP, then you move on to the next, and the cycle repeats.

It used to be Vendettas, now its Wave Serpents, etc etc.

Yes, BA and Power Armor in general have difficulty with Eldar and Tau firepower. This is not breaking news. They also do better against other builds by those armies and against other armies. Unfortunately Tau and Eldar are two of the most recent codices, which by the nature of 40k makes them two of the most popular armies currently. This will not last, their popularity will die down and the Meta will adjust. That is my assertion, refute it.

How do you not see the correlation between codex release and popularity? Fact is, almost all of the 6th edition codices are pretty well balanced against each other, and its better than any other edition of 40k in memory. Yes, DA was kind of a flop and a test bed for 6th and Marine pricing in general, too bad they missed the mark on some parts but made up for it in extras for SM. Yeah, CSM could be a bit better or costed a bit lower. But Daemons, Eldar, Tau, and SM are pretty well balanced. Notice a trend? Hell, even the new Adepta Soriatias is pretty beefy. The 6th edition books have grown in power and relative balance. Do you refute that assertion? This trend will continue through Nids, IG, Orks, SW, DE, BA, GK, and Necron. In all your years of 40k, you must have noticed a trend?

Once the new books are released, we will see fewer Tau and Eldar armies out there. We will also see their builds change to accommodate the new Meta. Pretty soon it will be threads about how to handle the OP Nids, then the OP IG, then those damned OP Orks, etc etc. Ever changing Meta.

The only problem with each new codex that comes out that unseats or knocks Eldar or Tau down a peg will lead to more incessant bitching and moaning by you until BA come out and they are the creme de la creme. Even then, you still will complain, unless they are the new number one codex, then you'll just complain about all the bandwagoners and how GW can't create a balanced edition, etc. You are never happy, and spend all of your energy complaining and whining. It is always something Martel732, always something to bellyache about.

I assert the Meta is constantly changing and we cannot predict how things will turn out with each new Dex. With three more PA books to come down the pike later in this edition I doubt we have to fear that SM, SW, GK, and BA will all be underpowered.

The current C:SM is not balanced against the big three. Grav guns are not enough of a balancing factor and plus the internal balance is quite poor. The C:SM are far from the number one codex now.

If GW did straight codex creep, that would be one thing. But they randomly or accidentally pick a list or group of lists to be obnoxious.

And for the record, Vendettas and Helldrakes are still OP, but GW has somehow found a way to make the situation even worse. Helldrakes still make your stuff go away VERY quickly, and Vendettas abuse the things marines would bring to stop this from happening. But the Eldar and Tau can kill so much QUICKER, these other problems, while still legit problems, take a back seat. But they don't go away. They just add to the "can't build a balanced list" fire.

I have to be honest here. I have played this since Rogue Trader. Given the DA and C:SM codices, I can't imagine BA or SW getting anything to put them on even footing with Taudar. C:SM is the newest and has no answers for screamerstar or seer council. I think we are still waiting for a ruling on whether grav guns allow cover saves for vehicles.

For your assertion to be true, there would be threads about the OP marines. I haven't seen too many of those. In fact, of the 6th edition codices released, DA and C:SM are two I feel the old 5th ed BA have the best shot against.

Martel732 wrote:
The current C:SM is not balanced against the big three. Grav guns are not enough of a balancing factor and plus the internal balance is quite poor. The C:SM are far from the number one codex now.

If GW did straight codex creep, that would be one thing. But they randomly or accidentally pick a list or group of lists to be obnoxious.

And for the record, Vendettas and Helldrakes are still OP, but GW has somehow found a way to make the situation even worse. Helldrakes still make your stuff go away VERY quickly, and Vendettas abuse the things marines would bring to stop this from happening. But the Eldar and Tau can kill so much QUICKER, these other problems, while still legit problems, take a back seat. But they don't go away. They just add to the "can't build a balanced list" fire.

I have to be honest here. I have played this since Rogue Trader. Given the DA and C:SM codices, I can't imagine BA or SW getting anything to put them on even footing with Taudar. C:SM is the newest and has no answers for screamerstar or seer council. I think we are still waiting for a ruling on whether grav guns allow cover saves for vehicles.

For your assertion to be true, there would be threads about the OP marines. I haven't seen too many of those. In fact, of the 6th edition codices released, DA and C:SM are two I feel the old 5th ed BA have the best shot against.

Yep, just as the 5th ed SM book was the same power level as SW, then BA, then GK....

Martel732 wrote:
Marines can get five ASM in a pod with two flamers for 80 pts I think for anti-pathfinder duty, but I'm not sure how good this unit is for general usage. Marines can't escape the truth that 3+ armor and T4 are their cornerstones, and 3+ armor and T4 sucks now. Okay, paying what GW charges for 3+ and T4 armor sucks.

95

I don't know how the topic turned to C:SM, but in order for C:SM to be relevant, the next level of power creep needs to oust Tau, Eldar, Daemons, Heldrakes, Necron, and IG while being weak to C:SM.

I just don't see that happening.

So, to get back on topic... I always thought people who refused to play an entire range of army-- like Tau or Orks or Space Marines-- are acting a bit cowardly.

Its a bit like those who say they won't play against Forgeworld - even though arguably the most broken units are actually in the primary codexes.

Also some of the previous posters are forgetting that not only have certain armies received very strong codexes both both are getting Supplements that they can ally with themselves. Plus of course the current biased Ally matrix gave the Tau far too many overpowered ally options that go against the actual fluff whilst ignoring for others........lastly that of course the really good Codexes are likely just to be able to ally in the new broken stuff to counter new lists.

At the end of the day GW want to sell stuff so making the new big models ultra good, available in the game in numbers and accessable makes sense from that point rather than game balance.

I do seem to be finding that there is two increasingly disperate (but equally valid) camps - lets call them Competative and Casual and its increasingly hard to do both -
now some may think this is a good thing - others not. Our club has people saying stuff like people need to just buy the "Meta" units and Step up their game - whereas others are pointing out - they just want a relaxing evening where stuff blows up on both sides and a bit of a laugh.

 Melissia wrote:
So, to get back on topic... I always thought people who refused to play an entire range of army-- like Tau or Orks or Space Marines-- are acting a bit cowardly.

It wasn't cowardice dude, reason the IG player refused to play is because he is still learning the game and having his teeth kicked in by a power gamer wouldn't have helped him, and this guy he would have played was planning on taking a super cheese list against him so no, I don't blame the kid, I blame the Tau player in this case, as he still hasn't gotten a game in 2x weeks as no one wants to deal with his shenanigans. Speaking of BA's, I actually have been testing out a Drop Pod list with them and so far it has performed very well again gun-line armies, including the Tau, for two reasons. 1st reason is that Furious Dreadnoughts are just amazing against everyone once they Drop Pod in, as not many things can stand up to 2x of them Drop Poding in Turn 1x and torching there troops with hvy. flamers. 2nd reason is that the Vanguard Vets are a solid option for the BA army in this case, as they deep strike turn 2 (most of the time) and then are able to still assault the turn they come in as they can still do it thanks to the BA army book. So far I have tried out a squad of these guys with great success and I plan to test this list out against that particular Tau player this weekend so he can stop complaining about not getting any games.