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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 13:59:10
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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So Feel No Pain retroactively cancels Entropic Strike because there was never an unsaved wound, but doesn't cancel itself out despite needing an unsaved wound to activate?
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 14:01:14
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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nosferatu1001 wrote:The wound has been saved.
Treated as == is, becomes has
having been - just becomes been
So the wound has been saved. There is no unsaved wound at any point that we can consider. So there is no way ES can have an effect on the game, as ithere is never an unsaved wound.
Simply put: you are still breaking the FNP rule without permission to do so, and thus your argument fails.
Im using the rule, as written, in the context supplied. My interpretation breaks nothing. Your using the rules, with your own synomanies, to support your arguement, and yet I am the one who MUST be wrong becuase you are, I guess incapable of being anything but right. You are dismissing my arguement becuase you don't like it. I have shown RAW, actual RAW, not my own equivelent of, and without changing a word proved my reading of the rule is valid. I spent a lot of time to do that, to put it in this thread and I find it a little insulting you just fly right over it.
You can say you disagree with my interpretation, but to say outright I am 'wrong' isn't really correct, I have shown how I COULD be correct within the rules of the English language. I approach each thread here with the though that I could or could not be wrong. If I come to it thinking I am always, absolutly right, well then there's not much room for an actual debate.
Find permission within the English Language for 'Treat' to be anything other than a present participle and you can say that might not be the meaning. Or use the actual words of the rules (rather than words you put in there) to prove your interpretation can be the ONLY interpretation.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/11/01 14:09:40
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 14:06:06
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The game uses "treat as" to mean "is", consistently Your argument hangs off NOT treating it as "is", with all it implies, and as such IS wrong, within the 40k ruleset. Your interpretation treats the wound as unsaved for the purposes of ES, which breaks the FNP rule as you are not given any exceptions within FNP, it is an absolute statement - the wound IS a saved wound. There IS no unsaved wound, and there can never HAVE BEEN an unsaved wound. As ES has no permission to break the FNP rule, your interpretation IS incorrect. This has been shown, with no advance on this argument from you. PR - it has no need to exist any longer, as there is no unsaved wound. Again, you keep asking this questoin, it gets answered, you reqord the same question slightly, ask it again, it gets answered, etc - so this is the last time I will bother. Stop asking answered questions as if they are new, or novel, as that is a dishonest way to debate a topic.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/01 14:07:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 14:11:33
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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nosferatu1001 wrote:The game uses "treat as" to mean "is", consistently
Your argument hangs off NOT treating it as "is", with all it implies, and as such IS wrong, within the 40k ruleset.
Your interpretation treats the wound as unsaved for the purposes of ES, which breaks the FNP rule as you are not given any exceptions within FNP, it is an absolute statement - the wound IS a saved wound. There IS no unsaved wound, and there can never HAVE BEEN an unsaved wound.
As ES has no permission to break the FNP rule, your interpretation IS incorrect. This has been shown, with no advance on this argument from you.
PR - it has no need to exist any longer, as there is no unsaved wound. Again, you keep asking this questoin, it gets answered, you reqord the same question slightly, ask it again, it gets answered, etc - so this is the last time I will bother. Stop asking answered questions as if they are new, or novel, as that is a dishonest way to debate a topic.
Thats still substituting your own words. RAW is RAW. It is as Written.
Even 'IS' is a Present participle you know. Substituting 'TREAT' for 'IS' does not change the context of the sentance. Or my arguement
The past participle is 'WAS'
-The (wound) is saved (Is = From this point)
-The (wound) was saved (Was = from a point in the past)
' As having been' is then obsolete in the sentance, as 'treat' no longer needs a follow up. For the wound to be saved in the past, it must have a past participle on the action to make it justifyable.
If you tell me ;
-The (wound) is saved (Is = From this point)
-The (wound) was saved (Was = from a point in the past)
mean the same thing. Then.. I'm not even sure... I've explained my point. Interjected the words you want me to interject. I don't understand at this point why I should be on the defensive. Please tell me if you think those 2 sentances mean the same thing before asking me for more evidence to prove my point again.
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This message was edited 17 times. Last update was at 2013/11/01 14:33:22
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 14:17:53
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
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Same kind of scenario for Lemartes:
Fury unbound is triggered by an unsaved wound.
Now by the way you are wanting to read the rules his attacks and strength both hop up to 5 and then you roll for FNP. If successful on the FNP rule I would still have 2 wounds but on the charge he would have 8 STR. 8 attacks. (Str 5 +1 for FC +2 for power maul & 5 att base +1 for 2 ccw +2 for rage) This does not sit right with me.
The way everyone else is reading it he gets an unsaved wound, you roll for FNP, if successful fury unbound does not activate, if you fail your FNP then Fury unbound activates. This is the way that I honestly believe that it should go.
If you are arguing that ES should be ignored by FNP then you MUST ALSO argue that Fury Unbound also work in the same exact way.
Fury Unbound Rule: If Lemartes suffers an unsaved wound, but is not slain, his Strength and Attacks both immediately increase to 5.
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Now, we like big books. (And we cannot lie. You other readers can’t deny, a book flops open with an itty-bitty font, and a map that’s in your face, you get—sorry! Sorry!) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 14:35:28
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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And as I pointed out in a different thread, Fury Unbound activates immediately after wound removal because it is not until after then you can check if Lemartes "is not slain". Indeed every example of an "after suffering an unsaved wound" effect I've seen so far has some sort of caveat that tells you that it happens at some point after Feel No Pain rolls are made, except Entropic Strike.
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 14:47:42
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
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And you were wrong in that thread too .... read the words that are written.
If it said that he must have had his remaining wounds reduced to 1 then that would be one thing but this is not the case.
"but is not slain" does not equal losing a wound.
The way you are saying this would FU and ES should work is something like this:
Gets hit and wounded (unsaved wound) ES kicks in as does FU.
FNP is rolled and made. ES still active, but so would FU as well, as he 'was not slain'
He now still has 2 wounds and 8 STR 8 attacks on the charge.
The way I believe it works:
Gets hit and wounded (unsaved wound)
FNP is rolled and made. Wound is discounted ES and FU are not activated as there is no unsaved wound anymore.
Lemartes is not supa-mad yet so STR 4 and 3 attacks.
He still was not slain BTW.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/01 15:01:54
Now, we like big books. (And we cannot lie. You other readers can’t deny, a book flops open with an itty-bitty font, and a map that’s in your face, you get—sorry! Sorry!) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 15:12:13
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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-Shrike- wrote:RAW and HIWPI, I think FNP comes first, then if the wound is still unsaved, ES applies. I can't think of a reasonable RAW interpretation for any other possibilities.
However, I can't let this go:
Nem wrote:I used the practicle 'is' deffinition of treat - 1. behave towards or deal with in a certain way.
Please, check your spelling before giving everyone a lecture on the exact breakdown of the English language in the rule.
Apologies - spelling is not my strong point. The ‘lesson’ was just the result of research, not something I am generally a expert in
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It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 15:16:14
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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No, I think that if we had a model with Entropic Strike attacking Lemartes it would work like this:
Gets hit and wounded, fails save
Entropic Strike immediately activates and removes the save, 1 requirement for Fury Unbound is met but we don't know if he has been slain by this wound yet, so Fury Unbound does not activate
Then either:
Feel No Pain is passed: Wound is considered saved, does not negate Entropic Strike as the status of the wound is no longer relevant to ES, Lemartes isn't slain but the wound is now considered saved, so FU is not activated
Feel No Pain is failed: Lemartes loses a wound, both requirements are met for Fury Unbound and it is activated
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 15:30:33
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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nosferatu1001 wrote:The wound has been saved.
Treated as == is, becomes has
having been - just becomes been
So the wound has been saved. There is no unsaved wound at any point that we can consider. So there is no way ES can have an effect on the game, as ithere is never an unsaved wound.
Simply put: you are still breaking the FNP rule without permission to do so, and thus your argument fails.
The rule is 'treat as' not 'treated as' and
'Is' doesn't equal 'has', 2 words that don't share the same meaning. You can't substitute that in.
'Treat' = 'Is'
'Treated' = I guess it could be exchanged for 'has'
The wound is been saved.
And sorry if it looks like I'm ignore the breaking rules part, If you have or have not broken the rules kinda depends on the reading of the rule, So I would like to focus on that, as the answer to one effects the other. Without the first part, it's just a roundabout of 'It's broken!' 'It's not!' which isn't going anywhere.
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This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2013/11/01 15:59:33
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 16:13:12
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
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PrinceRaven wrote:No, I think that if we had a model with Entropic Strike attacking Lemartes it would work like this:
Gets hit and wounded, fails save
Entropic Strike immediately activates and removes the save, 1 requirement for Fury Unbound is met but we don't know if he has been slain by this wound yet, so Fury Unbound does not activate
Then either:
Feel No Pain is passed: Wound is considered saved, does not negate Entropic Strike as the status of the wound is no longer relevant to ES, Lemartes isn't slain but the wound is now considered saved, so FU is not activated
Feel No Pain is failed: Lemartes loses a wound, both requirements are met for Fury Unbound and it is activated
FU says immediately as well ... and the whole thing about 'but is not slain' means ... he is not removed as a casualty.
you said this:
Lemartes isn't slain but the wound is now considered saved, so FU is not activated .... HOW CAN IT NOT BE ACTIVATED IF HE IS NOT SLAIN?!?!?!?!?!
Or you are picking and choosing what parts of the rules you want to use and are saying that FNP does not discount the wound as saved as far as ES goes but for FU it does.
Sorry, you can not have it both ways.
FNP either works by removing said wound as if it never happened (You know, like the rule says discount it as being saved, in which case FU and ES are BOTH not activated), or both abilities are activated and he still has two wounds. The second way of playing it breaks the game down in so many ways.
I am not sure how this can be explained in any other way.
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Now, we like big books. (And we cannot lie. You other readers can’t deny, a book flops open with an itty-bitty font, and a map that’s in your face, you get—sorry! Sorry!) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 17:01:38
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Nem - so again, you still end up with a saved wound, no matter what. Therefore ES, will tells you it needs an unsaved wound, cannot trigger. If you still pay attention to it, you break the FNP rule as you no longer see the wound is (has been) saved.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 17:33:11
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer
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PrinceRaven wrote:So Feel No Pain retroactively cancels Entropic Strike because there was never an unsaved wound, but doesn't cancel itself out despite needing an unsaved wound to activate?
FNP wont need to cancel itself because it treats the wound as saved there is no longer a trigger to test for FNP as the wound is saved. Its a fairly logical closed loop. look at the process flow i mocked up.
you are trying to constrain the actions in a linear fashion when this isnt the case as determined by the wording in the rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 17:46:59
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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The Hive Mind
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First, let's use the actual rule here:
"On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved."
Knowing that "treat as" must be the same as "is" in 40k, we can rewrite the sentence - without changing the meaning - as:
"On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted - it has been saved."
By applying ES you are not discounting the wound, and you're applying it to a saved wound. Please cite the allowance to break the FNP rules.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 18:21:57
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Nem - so again, you still end up with a saved wound, no matter what. Therefore ES, will tells you it needs an unsaved wound, cannot trigger. If you still pay attention to it, you break the FNP rule as you no longer see the wound is (has been) saved.
You do end up with an unsaved wound, but what can not be claimed on that interpretation is the unsaved wound never exited, or that FNP has the power to change past events. That's why the tense was important.
On ES specifically, I can not prove ES happened in the past (It was pointed out earlier I was incorrectly using page 9, when ES does not require a roll, or ''player intervention'') . If you see RAW as 'Immediately' was written with the intention of sorting the order, coupled with seeing RAW as FNP effect is applied at the time of resolution, and thereafter- then completes that interpretation and as far as your concerned that - is - RAW, both could be successful without conflict. Like, how someone mentioned earlier about it being like monopoly's 'move back 3 places' doesn't really exist in 40k, we don't go back and change things.
I'm not really bothered about personally getting into which comes first - I mean, what can we reference? That part which lays out how rules work in these circumstances- or the part which says the effects are applied at the same time? The rules don't seem to give any 'direct' instruction or insight.
Personally I believe Immediately does make a difference, and the order of events is not simultaneous but, again, with no 'direct' quotes for or against or for it, it can be argued as ambiguous, which just ends up in a round about of a debate.
[Closing statement your honour]
I could be wrong for sure, GW might have meant for the rule to be read one way, might have meant for it to be read the other way, what I set out to do was prove it could be read the way I interpret it. If nothing else, I learnt a lot about grammar today.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/01 18:24:43
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 20:06:25
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Ambitious Acothyst With Agonizer
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Nem wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Nem - so again, you still end up with a saved wound, no matter what. Therefore ES, will tells you it needs an unsaved wound, cannot trigger. If you still pay attention to it, you break the FNP rule as you no longer see the wound is (has been) saved.
You do end up with an unsaved wound, but what can not be claimed on that interpretation is the unsaved wound never exited, or that FNP has the power to change past events. That's why the tense was important.
So if FNP cannot change what is the point of FNP as it would never work as the would would alway be unsaved. This is not the case RAI or even the way it is worded RAW.
if you are having to argue semantics and grammar to even make your interpretation work in a loose sense, you know your on shaky ground.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 23:01:08
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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What Nem is pointing out is that FNP does not tell you to go back to when you took saves/allocated the unsaved wound and change what it is then. If they both take effect at the same time without any reason to prioritize either then they both are applied at the same time. The claim that you can't apply ES because it's now a saved wound would have to apply to the use of FNP as well.
It's similar to the argument concerning psychic powers stacking, if you have met the conditions to trigger the power/sr then what happens next does not change the fact that you have permission to apply their effects. If you argued in the psychic power thread that you have to apply the +1 to str from a power because you have permission to complete the next step once you have made your roll then the same logic would apply to FNP and ES.
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 00:14:08
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Yes, but applying "now a saved woudn" to FNP, doesnt matter - closed logical loop. You start with a saved wound, and end with a saved wound.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 03:53:27
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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OIIIIIIO wrote: PrinceRaven wrote:No, I think that if we had a model with Entropic Strike attacking Lemartes it would work like this:
Gets hit and wounded, fails save
Entropic Strike immediately activates and removes the save, 1 requirement for Fury Unbound is met but we don't know if he has been slain by this wound yet, so Fury Unbound does not activate
Then either:
Feel No Pain is passed: Wound is considered saved, does not negate Entropic Strike as the status of the wound is no longer relevant to ES, Lemartes isn't slain but the wound is now considered saved, so FU is not activated
Feel No Pain is failed: Lemartes loses a wound, both requirements are met for Fury Unbound and it is activated
FU says immediately as well ... and the whole thing about 'but is not slain' means ... he is not removed as a casualty.
you said this:
Lemartes isn't slain but the wound is now considered saved, so FU is not activated .... HOW CAN IT NOT BE ACTIVATED IF HE IS NOT SLAIN?!?!?!?!?!
Or you are picking and choosing what parts of the rules you want to use and are saying that FNP does not discount the wound as saved as far as ES goes but for FU it does.
Sorry, you can not have it both ways.
FNP either works by removing said wound as if it never happened (You know, like the rule says discount it as being saved, in which case FU and ES are BOTH not activated), or both abilities are activated and he still has two wounds. The second way of playing it breaks the game down in so many ways.
I am not sure how this can be explained in any other way.
Feel No Pain definitely discounts the wound, which is why FU isn't activated, FU has 2 activation requirements; Lemartes not being slain and suffering an unsaved wound, if the Feel No Pain roll is made there is no point in time in which we know Lemartes has not been slain and that he has suffered an unsaved wound. Entropic Strike only has 1 activation requirement, an unsaved wound. Before the Feel No Pain roll you had an unsaved wound and Entropic Strike activated. Past that point Feel No Pain tells you that there is no unsaved wound, but Entropic Strike doesn't care, it's already been activated and resolved, it no longer needs an unsaved wound to have been caused.
What you're suggesting is that for some reason Entropic Strike checks if there was an unsaved wound after the Feel No Pain roll is made, realises there never was one and disappears in a puff of time paradox, this has no basis in the rules, Entropic Strike only needs an unsaved wound to activate, it does not check again at any point in time once activated.
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 03:54:43
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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The Hive Mind
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So again - you're applying ES to a model that has not suffered an unsaved wound. That would be against the rules.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 04:00:02
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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Show me the part of Entropic Strike that periodically checks whether the model has suffered an unsaved wound to remain in effect.
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 04:08:49
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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The Hive Mind
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PrinceRaven wrote:Show me the part of Entropic Strike that periodically checks whether the model has suffered an unsaved wound to remain in effect.
The part where it requires an unsaved wound. If FNP is passed, there was no unsaved wound.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 04:14:26
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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Which no longer matters because it was already activated...
I swear we're just going around in circles at this point.
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 04:16:55
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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The Hive Mind
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PrinceRaven wrote:Which no longer matters because it was already activated...
I swear we're just going around in circles at this point.
Only if you're asserting ES happens first. There's no evidence of that - in fact because you cannot guarantee you know if the wound is saved or not until after resolving FNP ES should be resolved after FNP.
And it does matter - you're saying you're okay with literally breaking a rule by removing an armor save from a model that has not suffered an unsaved wound.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 04:42:34
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Nem - so again, you still end up with a saved wound, no matter what. Therefore ES, will tells you it needs an unsaved wound, cannot trigger. If you still pay attention to it, you break the FNP rule as you no longer see the wound is (has been) saved.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, but applying "now a saved woudn" to FNP, doesnt matter - closed logical loop. You start with a saved wound, and end with a saved wound.
Either way there is an unsaved wound. After FNP it will have been saved but for the moment there is in fact at that time before the die is cast an unsaved wound suffered. That is in fact the very reason you are making a FNP roll. So an unsaved wound happens, ES plainly states it's effect. You make your FNP roll and "treat it as if it had been saved". What makes you think ES cares if the wound gets retroactively negated? So the unsaved wound is reversed, it doesn't matter. Trigger conditions were met and there is no denial for ES to have its effect.
You can say it didn't suffer an unsaved wound all you want but the fact is, at the time, it did indeed suffer such a wound... even if later it didn't. So ES got triggered. What exactly are you claiming deactivates it? I see no condition under which it would no longer apply. By your own admission the wound in this scenario is at different times saved and unsaved. ES does not care if it is saved, only that it is unsaved and within the loop that undeniably occurs.
So cause(unsaved wound) happens and then does not happen
Effect (no armor save for the rest of the game) happens
Effect (Unsaved wound treated as if it had been saved) happens
This is not a paradox. In this case the cause both happens and does not happen at the same time. That might seem confusing (because it is) but it's hardly a new concept. The important part to note is that the rules involved do not care if the unsaved wound does not happen, they only care if it does happen.
rigeld2 wrote:First, let's use the actual rule here:
"On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved."
Knowing that "treat as" must be the same as "is" in 40k, we can rewrite the sentence - without changing the meaning - as:
"On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted - it has been saved."
On this part I agree. 'Treat it...' in this case is a present action you are to taking. '...as having been saved' indicates the change in consideration to the wound extends into the past to the appropriate time for the 'save'
rigeld2 wrote:By applying ES you are not discounting the wound, and you're applying it to a saved wound. Please cite the allowance to break the FNP rules.
On this I disagree. ES does not get applied to a wound. An unsaved wound causes ES to trigger. Once that is done, ES does not care about the wound.
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-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 04:59:27
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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The Hive Mind
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And by allowing ES to trigger and apply you're not discounting the wound. The rules say you must discount it. Please cite the rule allowing you to ignore FNP.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 05:27:55
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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rigeld2 wrote:And by allowing ES to trigger and apply you're not discounting the wound. The rules say you must discount it. Please cite the rule allowing you to ignore FNP.
It already triggered. The fact that the trigger was retrospectively removed does not change that fact.
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-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 05:42:38
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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The Hive Mind
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Abandon wrote:rigeld2 wrote:And by allowing ES to trigger and apply you're not discounting the wound. The rules say you must discount it. Please cite the rule allowing you to ignore FNP.
It already triggered. The fact that the trigger was retrospectively removed does not change that fact.
It was removed and the wound must be discounted. Meaning applying ES is against the rules.
It's almost like rules matter or something. FNP specifically tells you the wound was saved and must be discounted.
Or do you also remove single wound models that pass FNP?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 06:04:31
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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rigeld2 wrote: Abandon wrote:rigeld2 wrote:And by allowing ES to trigger and apply you're not discounting the wound. The rules say you must discount it. Please cite the rule allowing you to ignore FNP.
It already triggered. The fact that the trigger was retrospectively removed does not change that fact.
It was removed and the wound must be discounted. Meaning applying ES is against the rules.
It's almost like rules matter or something. FNP specifically tells you the wound was saved and must be discounted.
Or do you also remove single wound models that pass FNP?
ES does not care what becomes of the wound. You did read it I hope. I mean, you quoted it so ...I'd think so but you don't seem to know that it is not dependent on the wound after it's triggered. The model has an unsaved wound, it triggers ES and FNP. ES does not care about the wound any more than that so FNP can have its way with the unsaved wound and it won't change the ES effect at all. The only question that matters for ES on this subject is:
At any point was the wound unsaved?
Answer: Yes. Nothing else about the wound matters to ES
The question regarding FNP:
Can you treat 'the wound' as having been saved without treating everything else as if the wound had been saved?
Answer: Yes. The wound is all that matters to FNP and it does not permit you to change anything else.
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-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 06:11:14
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Abandon wrote: At any point was the wound unsaved? Answer: Yes. Nothing else about the wound matters to ES
(emphasis mine) The underlined can not be true otherwise we are not treating the wound as saved... Plus, you do not know if you actually have an unsaved wound until FNP is resolved because you could have to treat the wound as saved instead of Unsaved.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/02 06:12:18
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