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Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Things like librarians coming back from the dead and regaining warp charges because their enemy rolled FNP successfully?
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





Sparta, Ohio

Or Lemartes Fury unbound triggering ... it goes both ways.

Now, we like big books. (And we cannot lie. You other readers can’t deny, a book flops open with an itty-bitty font, and a map that’s in your face, you get—sorry! Sorry!)  
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




One models FNP reviving an enemy psyker and giving back spent warp charges is actually the worst side effect of a rule misinterpretation I have seen so far.

And it is my understanding that the "is not slain" part of fury abound provides another check that comes after wound resolution, so fury abound won't activate after a successful FNP.
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





Sparta, Ohio

why not? Is he slain after a successful FNP?

Now, we like big books. (And we cannot lie. You other readers can’t deny, a book flops open with an itty-bitty font, and a map that’s in your face, you get—sorry! Sorry!)  
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




The trigger for fury abound are 2 linked conditions. Suffering an unsaved wound AND not be slain. In order to know if the model is slain the unsaved wound must have been applied and not killed Lemartes. Applying the wound comes after FNP resolves.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

copper.talos wrote:
The trigger for fury abound are 2 linked conditions. Suffering an unsaved wound AND not be slain. In order to know if the model is slain the unsaved wound must have been applied and not killed Lemartes. Applying the wound comes after FNP resolves.

Well if the model is still alive it is a safe bet that he has not been slain...

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





Sparta, Ohio

copper.talos wrote:
The trigger for fury abound are 2 linked conditions. Suffering an unsaved wound AND not be slain. In order to know if the model is slain the unsaved wound must have been applied and not killed Lemartes. Applying the wound comes after FNP resolves.


Then .... how would ES work if you are not applying a wound until AFTER FNP? Just curious you see, as you stated earlier that you have an unsaved wound, ES kicks in, then you can roll FNP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/11 21:06:23


Now, we like big books. (And we cannot lie. You other readers can’t deny, a book flops open with an itty-bitty font, and a map that’s in your face, you get—sorry! Sorry!)  
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Why don't you take the time to read the rules before posting here? ES does not apply "if the models is not slain" like FU. It applies "immediately" after the model suffers an unsaved wound. So unlike FU, ES must be applied before FNP.


@DR now that I have your attention, please take the time to answer this: does or does not your way of playing FNP ends up with librarians returning to life and regaining used warp charges because their enemy rolled successfully FNP? If your way of playing FNP is the correct one then you should have no problems answering it...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/11 21:15:41


 
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





Sparta, Ohio

copper.talos wrote:
Why don't you take the time to read the rules before posting here? ES does not apply "if the models is not slain" like FU. It applies "immediately" after the model suffers an unsaved wound. So unlike FU, ES must be applied before FNP.



As should you ... FU is activated upon an unsaved wound that does not slay Lemartes ...it too contains the word immediately.

Are you implying that you should wait to see if it slays him then fine ... after you roll your save and fail (which is also a trigger for FU) but prior to your FNP then at any point if he is not slain, he would up his STR and ATT to five. By the way you are wanting to play it FU is activated as soon as he takes an unsaved wound.

The way myself and my gaming group play it is that FNP cancels FU if the roll is successful, because, you know, you treat the wound as saved. To come up with any sort of mechanic saying 'the second part of it says he is not slain, so FU does not activate' I say this ... Cite me a rule stating exactly where it says that. All I see is that he has to survive. Your version allows me to activate FU after he suffers an unsaved wound but prior to rolling FNP. If I am successful with FNP I still have 2 wounds and 5 STR and 5 Attacks. I do not think that this is the way it should be.

I really do not appreciate you acting like I am not reading the rules, and take offense at that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/11 23:15:22


Now, we like big books. (And we cannot lie. You other readers can’t deny, a book flops open with an itty-bitty font, and a map that’s in your face, you get—sorry! Sorry!)  
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

DeathReaper wrote:
 Abandon wrote:
In regard to what do we pretend it was successful?
Hint: It's right before the 'having been saved' part.

When does it get to be regarded that way?
Hint: It's in the grammatical tense of that same part.

We treat the unsaved Wound as having been saved.

A rule that is broken if a model no longer has an armor save.

But no matter how many times I explain this to you, for some reason, you are not understanding it.


Well you answered one question (unintentionally I belive) in the part I underlined. Perhaps you could answer the second.
 Abandon wrote:

When does it get to be regarded that way?
Hint: It's in the grammatical tense of that same part.


rigeld2 wrote:Using your stance, is an armor save removed on a model that has passed FNP?

Therefore you're advocating removing the armor save of a model that has not suffered an unsaved wound.

Evidence has been shown - you're simply ignoring it to further your own interpretation. Saying there is no evidence is flat out wrong.


...and that's a problem with what rule? Where does it say the effects of ES are removed if the model has not suffered an unsaved wound? ES already had permission to apply. Beyond that it does not care how the wound is later considered. All it needs is a moment where an unsaved wound is suffered, which it gets. After that you need to find a rule that denies its effect, which so far, no one has cited.

Unsaved Wound happens.
-FNP is permitted to resolve.
-ES is permitted to resolve.
FNP roll is made
-The state of the wound is changed to 'has been saved'.
ES resolves
-Armor save is removed.

Nothing takes away ES's permission to resolve. That a successful FNP roll can cause ES to be resolved without an unsaved wound is exactly what the rules dictate.

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Johnson City, NewYork

If someone can tell me why you are advocating allowing one rule to be used but not another that uses the same trigger I will at least consider your position. Unless you can actually find a difference in wording of the triggers for ES and FNP then there is no way you can trigger and resolve one of these powers and not another. The phrase "Therefore you're advocating removing the armor save of a model that has not suffered an unsaved wound." also goes the other direction and how can you take a FNP roll on a wound the has been saved? There is no reason given in the FAQ as to why Force is activated first, as has been pointed out. Please show where the rules tell you to apply SR's in an order depending on their effects. Unless you can, you are advocating making up rules to support your interpretation.

ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.

You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





Gravmyr wrote:
If someone can tell me why you are advocating allowing one rule to be used but not another that uses the same trigger I will at least consider your position. Unless you can actually find a difference in wording of the triggers for ES and FNP then there is no way you can trigger and resolve one of these powers and not another. The phrase "Therefore you're advocating removing the armor save of a model that has not suffered an unsaved wound." also goes the other direction and how can you take a FNP roll on a wound the has been saved? There is no reason given in the FAQ as to why Force is activated first, as has been pointed out. Please show where the rules tell you to apply SR's in an order depending on their effects. Unless you can, you are advocating making up rules to support your interpretation.

After FNP has been triggered you have no permission to activate it again.
The good thing is that it doesn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Abandon wrote:
Nothing takes away ES's permission to resolve. That a successful FNP roll can cause ES to be resolved without an unsaved wound is exactly what the rules dictate.

That's interesting. In my copy of the Necron codex is says that a model must suffer and unsaved wound to have its armor stripped.
A model that passes FNP never suffers an unsaved wound.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/12 01:11:13


My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
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Angry Blood Angel Assault marine





I would like to say again the whole librarian question is not a valid one seeings how again the wound from perils is its own special issue. You are saying that since the wound is a result of an action that is not related to the fnp roll,other then seeing if you get to cancel fnp. The result of fnp only affects the wound caused to the model taking the fnp.

Futhermore the unsaved woumd which is an armour save is treated as a passed armour save thus cancellimg es!

8000+points of  
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
I would like to say again the whole librarian question is not a valid one seeings how again the wound from perils is its own special issue. You are saying that since the wound is a result of an action that is not related to the fnp roll,other then seeing if you get to cancel fnp. The result of fnp only affects the wound caused to the model taking the fnp.

Futhermore the unsaved woumd which is an armour save is treated as a passed armour save thus cancellimg es!


But it is a valid question. If the wound is saved, then the Librarian could not have attempted to activate his Force Weapon. If he could not attempt to activate his Force Weapon, he could not have suffered Perils of the Warp. If he could not have suffered Perils, he could not have lost the wound. Ergo, if a psyker rolls to activate his Force Weapon, and the enemy model passes his FNP roll, the Psyker regains his lost Wound from Perils.

Also FNP does not say treated as if the model passed an armour save. It is treated as having been saved.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/12 01:30:00


Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Johnson City, NewYork

rigeld2 wrote:

After FNP has been triggered you have no permission to activate it again.
The good thing is that it doesn't matter.


You still haven't addressed why you are making up a rule that allows you to choose what SR you are activating and resolving and not another. Please provide backing for doing so.

ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.

You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





Gravmyr wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

After FNP has been triggered you have no permission to activate it again.
The good thing is that it doesn't matter.


You still haven't addressed why you are making up a rule that allows you to choose what SR you are activating and resolving and not another. Please provide backing for doing so.

I haven't said that. At all. Perhaps you meant someone else?

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

rigeld2 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Nothing takes away ES's permission to resolve. That a successful FNP roll can cause ES to be resolved without an unsaved wound is exactly what the rules dictate.

That's interesting. In my copy of the Necron codex is says that a model must suffer and unsaved wound to have its armor stripped.
A model that passes FNP never suffers an unsaved wound.


If a model passed FNP it suffered an unsaved wound or it would not have had opportunity to roll FNP.

You're still on Time Warp Theory correct? If I tell you to 'treat your BRB as if it had never been opened' would that be requiring you to forget what it says? No. That command only regards your book, not your mind. Would that be commanding you to go back in time or pretend to do so and change all events based off opening your book? No. The change is only stated in regard to the book, nothing else.

The request does however ask you to draw a parallel timeline and pretend you have the unopened book from it instead of your current one. That is what you get when you treat a certain thing (like a wound) as having been different. As opposed to treating everything like it was different.

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Abandon wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Nothing takes away ES's permission to resolve. That a successful FNP roll can cause ES to be resolved without an unsaved wound is exactly what the rules dictate.

That's interesting. In my copy of the Necron codex is says that a model must suffer and unsaved wound to have its armor stripped.
A model that passes FNP never suffers an unsaved wound.


If a model passed FNP it suffered an unsaved wound or it would not have had opportunity to roll FNP.

Absolutely correct. Fortunately it's a saved wound and such a thing is irrelevant.

You're still on Time Warp Theory correct? If I tell you to 'treat your BRB as if it had never been opened' would that be requiring you to forget what it says? No. That command only regards your book, not your mind. Would that be commanding you to go back in time or pretend to do so and change all events based off opening your book? No. The change is only stated in regard to the book, nothing else.

The request does however ask you to draw a parallel timeline and pretend you have the unopened book from it instead of your current one. That is what you get when you treat a certain thing (like a wound) as having been different. As opposed to treating everything like it was different.

That's a whole lot of words to boil down to 'treated as is different from is' - a statement that I thought we'd gotten past early in the thread.
It's as incorrect now as it was then and any views drawn with that in mind cannot be correct.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

rigeld2 wrote:
 Abandon wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Nothing takes away ES's permission to resolve. That a successful FNP roll can cause ES to be resolved without an unsaved wound is exactly what the rules dictate.

That's interesting. In my copy of the Necron codex is says that a model must suffer and unsaved wound to have its armor stripped.
A model that passes FNP never suffers an unsaved wound.


If a model passed FNP it suffered an unsaved wound or it would not have had opportunity to roll FNP.

Absolutely correct. Fortunately it's a saved wound and such a thing is irrelevant.

You're still on Time Warp Theory correct? If I tell you to 'treat your BRB as if it had never been opened' would that be requiring you to forget what it says? No. That command only regards your book, not your mind. Would that be commanding you to go back in time or pretend to do so and change all events based off opening your book? No. The change is only stated in regard to the book, nothing else.

The request does however ask you to draw a parallel timeline and pretend you have the unopened book from it instead of your current one. That is what you get when you treat a certain thing (like a wound) as having been different. As opposed to treating everything like it was different.

That's a whole lot of words to boil down to 'treated as is different from is' - a statement that I thought we'd gotten past early in the thread.
It's as incorrect now as it was then and any views drawn with that in mind cannot be correct.


It was not saved when you rolled FNP.
...
Incorrect. 'Treat as' equaling 'is' changes nothing in that example. Your book has never been opened but you still know what it says.

If you get 'time travel and redo everything' out of 'treat it as having been saved' when 'it' plainly refers to the wound please explain how you do so. As far as I can tell any change in how anything is treated is going to be limited to the wound...

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





'It' does refer to the wound.
The wound was saved. You're applying an effect that requires n unsaved wound. It wasn't an unsaved wound.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

I'll put it a different way.

It says- 'Treat it as having been saved' where it refers to the wound.

You believe that means, go back in time, change the wound to saved and proceed from there changing everything since then to account for a saved wound.

You keep missing the part where this statement contains a specific thing it refers to which limits any 'treat as' or 'is', as you call it, to that specific thing. You keep changing everything to 'as if the wound were saved' while the rule only permits you to change the wound itself. You make a change to the state of the wound while everything else remains the same.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/12 03:38:51


-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





Changing the state of the wound and not changing everything else means you're breaking rules.
Cite permission to break the rules.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in my
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

rigeld2 wrote:
Changing the state of the wound and not changing everything else means you're breaking rules.
Cite permission to break the rules.


Cite permission for Feel No Pain to change the activation of already activated abilities.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

rigeld, you may have already answered this, and if you did I apologize.

Do you believe that a successful FNP roll would allow an enemy psyker who rolled double 6's to activate his Force Weapon, to regain the lost Wound (and potentially come back from the dead)?

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





PrinceRaven wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Changing the state of the wound and not changing everything else means you're breaking rules.
Cite permission to break the rules.


Cite permission for Feel No Pain to change the activation of already activated abilities.

FNP changes an unsaved wound to a saved wound, therefore changing apt he activation.
Since you have now illegally activated an ability, you need permission to apply the effect.

Happyjew wrote:rigeld, you may have already answered this, and if you did I apologize.

Do you believe that a successful FNP roll would allow an enemy psyker who rolled double 6's to activate his Force Weapon, to regain the lost Wound (and potentially come back from the dead)?

I've answered that.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

rigeld2 wrote:
Changing the state of the wound and not changing everything else means you're breaking rules.
Cite permission to break the rules.


Changing the state of the wound is the only thing that line allows you to do.

Edit: 'Treat it as having been saved'

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/12 03:33:06


-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Abandon wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Changing the state of the wound and not changing everything else means you're breaking rules.
Cite permission to break the rules.


Changing the state of the wound is the only thing that line allows you to do.

Edit: 'Treat it as having been saved'

So you're advocating breaking rules with no rules support. Great.

If a model does not suffer an unsaved wound, would you apply ES?

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

rigeld2 wrote:
 Abandon wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Changing the state of the wound and not changing everything else means you're breaking rules.
Cite permission to break the rules.


Changing the state of the wound is the only thing that line allows you to do.

Edit: 'Treat it as having been saved'

So you're advocating breaking rules with no rules support. Great.

If a model does not suffer an unsaved wound, would you apply ES?


Nope. I'm saying you are reading rules that are not there. Look at the line and tell me how it changes anything but the wound.

'Treat it as having been saved'

Remember the grammatical tense denotes an action you are to take in the present meaning you do not 'treat it' in the past even though how you treat it does have a past denotation. That means that when you translate 'treat it as' to 'it is' the present grammatical tense needs to stay with it so, 'it was' would be incorrect.

'It is as if it had been saved'
Or since 'saved' already carries the past tense:
'It is saved'

Which is of course what we have been trying to tell you. It is a change at the present, effecting nothing else but what it tells you to effect. The wound.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/12 06:36:58


-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




So you are saying you can have a saved wound that was once unsaved.

The rules do not allow for that.
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Johnson City, NewYork

rigeld2: Everyone's point is quite simple, did you roll FNP? If you did there clearly was an unsaved wound and as so you are not treating it as a saved wound. How do you address this? You keep saying that if the model has lost it's Armour save you are not treating it as having been saved. The same has to be said if you have made a FNP roll. ES and FNP are one time effects that have a lasting affect on the model. How can you advocate going back and negating only select parts of the effects but not the rest? As soon as you say you have to go back and change everything that has happened due to there being an unsaved wound you would have to do the same for the use of FNP. The reverse is just as true, did you roll FNP? Then you are not treating the wound as saved.

DR: Same.

Nos: If a wound cannot be ever treated as saved at one point after being treated as unsaved then how do you deal with Force and FNP? How do you deal with the failed psychic tests and dead psychers if there was never a unsaved wound? In the end it's not actually covered in the rules. As such we have to follow all the rules including carrying out all SR's that have been activated.


In the end you only end up with a "rule breaking" if you believe that it goes back in time without that all the rules are followed.


ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.

You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
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