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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/16 22:57:37
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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The difference is force is a test for an effect that applies to all unsaved wounds. es is an effect that happens if an unsaved wound is applied. the test is distinct as it is not an effect, this is clarified as occuring before effects by the faq.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/16 23:04:03
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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ES and Force have the same trigger. There is nothing to differentiate between them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/16 23:08:45
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Just because it affects multiple wounds does not change the fact that it is triggered off and unsaved wound and by the reading being put forth nothing that is triggered off an unsaved wound should complete. ES is an effect with the exact same trigger as Force and FNP so if you are saying one cannot complete none can.
I'm still waiting for someone to put forth why, per the FAQ, you seem to think Force happens before FNP.
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/16 23:10:51
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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They have the same trigger to a point. es however doesn't apply to all wounds, es is an effect where as force is a test for an effect and the force test is faq'd to be taken before fnp (and by extension all other effects) are accounted for. The effect of force, if sucessful, then is accounted for negating fnp. The test is a separate entity to the effect it has if it is successful. Automatically Appended Next Post: Gravmyr wrote:Just because it affects multiple wounds does not change the fact that it is triggered off and unsaved wound and by the reading being put forth nothing that is triggered off an unsaved wound should complete. ES is an effect with the exact same trigger as Force and FNP so if you are saying one cannot complete none can.
I'm still waiting for someone to put forth why, per the FAQ, you seem to think Force happens before FNP.
as i just said the test is taken before fnp, or any effects, as per the faq not its effect if its successful.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/16 23:13:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/17 00:59:27
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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All rules work like this trigger->effect. The trigger can be anything, a player's choice, a 6 on a dice roll, anything. Effect is what happens when a rule is triggered, and likewise the effect can be anything, a psychic test to activate a force weapon, more attacks etc.
ES and Force have the same trigger, ES' and Force's effects apply immediately after the trigger. So there is no difference between them.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/17 01:00:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/17 01:07:12
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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copper.talos wrote:All rules work like this trigger->effect. The trigger can be anything, a player's choice, a 6 on a dice roll, anything. Effect is what happens when a rule is triggered, and likewise the effect can be anything, a psychic test to activate a force weapon, more attacks etc.
ES and Force have the same trigger, ES' and Force's effects apply immediately after the trigger. So there is no difference between them.
except the listed differences and force has an faq to resolve the test before fnp. Exceptions are not the general rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/17 01:29:29
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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DeathReaper wrote: PrinceRaven wrote: DeathReaper wrote:FNP says When you suffer an unsaved wound you roll FNP.
This goes off before something that happens immediately after suffering an unsaved wound.
When X happens do Y
When X happens, immediately do Z
Why is Y occurring before Z?
Because Y happens when X happens, and Z happens Immediately after X happens. Y goes first as it is simultaneous with X because When X happens Y happens. (AKA X and Y happen at the same time, Z happens Immediately after X, and consequently Y).
I am glad we could work that out.
This is way off. The only difference in the above between Y and Z is that Z has the word immediately added into it's timing relation to X. This does not delay Z but rather gives it a sense of urgency indicating it should be done right away. Otherwise it is given the exact same timing as Y.
DeathReaper wrote:.
You do not suffer a unsaved wound unless you apply the effects of said unsaved wound,
After a failed save we get unsaved wounds that have been caused. After we apply the wound and reduce the models wounds by 1 is when the wound has been suffered.
"First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved. Make a note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused" (15, Emphasis mine)
failed saves = Unsaved wounds caused. When a model is subjected to the effects of the unsaved wound, only then has the unsaved wound been suffered.
If this were the case FNP would always fail to function as the model would be removed before FNP could trigger.
nosferatu1001 wrote:So copper, even if you pass FNP you still lose a wound? Given the only way to SUFFER an unsaved wound is to lose a wound, and you claim that es still happens even if you don't lose a wound, this has to be true.
So, do you play that FNP is functionally useless? Or are you just being inconsistent?
The part I underlined is the thing that makes FNP non-functional in your theory. It has nothing to do with what copper said as it is your own assertion.
DeathReaper wrote:
Not at all actually...
I said the use of suffer in the rules is very inconsistent.
copper.talos wrote:This means that before the faqs you were saying one thing to argue for the swarms/ ID issue and you were saying the exact opposite to argue for the force/ FNP issue. Which makes you inconsistent, not the rules...
I was saying that because it appeared true, the FaQ came out and it seemed not true.
However the use of suffer in the rules is very inconsistent.
Then why are you basing arguments on the term.
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-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/17 01:45:32
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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@bausk what makes you think force is an exception?!!! It is not written anywhere.
In structure both ES and Force are exactly the same:
When a model suffers an unsaved wound, immediately do X/Y.
Force got a faq to do X before FNP, and within that faq there isn't written any exception, justification, reasoning, anything at all. Just the answer: Do X before FNP. And there is no reason why Y shouldn't be done before FNP too...
And for the record are you in favour of FNP going back in time to make the wound saved before FNP activates? If yes then please also answer the if a psyker can get back to life and regain used warp charges if an enemy rolls FNP successfully.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/17 01:47:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/17 03:31:09
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Angry Blood Angel Assault marine
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Again your senario does not work... you keep insisting it does but I have yet to see why. The roll for Force is allowed and independent of FNP. If you look at the text in Force if you fail there is no addtional effect, thus making your idea wrong. The roll for Force is independant of FNP but directly affect if FNP can be activated.
I think this whole time warp thing is bunk plain and simple.
I subscribe to a simpler idea. Kind of like order of operations, I think it should work like this because cause and effect, along with an FAQ anwser.
Q: In assault, what comes first – Feel No Pain rolls or the roll to
activate a Force weapon? (p37)
A: The roll to activate a Force Weapon is made before
determining whether or not the victim is permitted a Feel
No Pain roll.
Direct quote from the FAQ, so stop saying there is nothing in the FAQs about the Force going before FNP. Its right there.
Addtionally, with this in mind FNP can make it so the activation of ES be stopped, thus my idea of order of operations. Seeings how Force can stop FNP.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/17 06:24:27
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.
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Copper, if you read the thread you would know the answer to my standpoint on fnp.
However I'll humour you anyway. Fnp alters the state of an unsaved wound to be saved if successful. The test for force specifically happens before comparing fnp to any potential ID effects. It comes diwn to negation.
If something can potentially negate another it must be tested for first. As fnp can potentially negate any effect with the exception of ID then it simply must follow force. As the test and the potential effect of force are two separate things in addition to being triggerable and applicable to all unsaved wounds makes the test and its result stay regardless of fnps outcome.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/17 09:26:32
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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You don't get it. The psyker returning to life is a scenario meant to prove that FNP going back in time to make wounds saved is ridiculous. This was the last "defence" of a few people here to allow FNP to counter ES, and at least one of them agreed that even he wouldn't play it this way. So:
I agree!
Kapitalist-Pig wrote:Direct quote from the FAQ, so stop saying there is nothing in the FAQs about the Force going before FNP. Its right there.
I actually said exactly the same thing, that the faq resolves the the timing of Force, so it resolves before FNP.
Now ES and Force have the exact same timing. Exact! Since you agree that Force resolves before FNP, there is no reason why you shouldn't agree that ES resolves before FNP too! And also since you agree that FNP does not go back in time, then there is no way that FNP can stop ES from applying.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bausk wrote:If something can potentially negate another it must be tested for first.
Page and number please.
Bausk wrote:As fnp can potentially negate any effect with the exception of ID then it simply must follow force.
No. All I can read in the rule actually is to help a model "avoid being wounded" not "negate any effect". If the wording was as such, we wouldn't be having this thread.
Bausk wrote:As the test and the potential effect of force are two separate things.
No. Rules aren't compartmentalised. There are no "separate things" within a rule. There is always a trigger and always an effect. The trigger is an unsaved wound and the effect is everything you do to resolve the rule, spend warp charge, psychic test etc.
Bausk wrote:in addition to being triggerable and applicable to all unsaved wounds makes the test and its result stay regardless of fnps outcome.
Same applies to ES.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/17 09:38:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/17 14:47:11
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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The FAQ telling you to test for Force first is not a why, it is a clarification that you should have been doing so to begin with. Now what reasoning did they give for that clarification? I'll help, none. With no reason being given why are you: A: Assuming that this is an exception? B: Assuming that the reason for Force happening first is due to it's ability to negate FNP? Particularly when many of the people who are now arguing that both these powers go before everything else were arguing that FNP could negate Force before and should go first. C: Giving any precedence to powers that have no rule backing for going before identically worded SR's? Edit: scratch similarly replace with identically
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/17 15:45:24
ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/17 16:30:32
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Angry Blood Angel Assault marine
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Gravmyr wrote:The FAQ telling you to test for Force first is not a why, it is a clarification that you should have been doing so to begin with. Now what reasoning did they give for that clarification? I'll help, none. With no reason being given why are you:
A: Assuming that this is an exception?
B: Assuming that the reason for Force happening first is due to it's ability to negate FNP? Particularly when many of the people who are now arguing that both these powers go before everything else were arguing that FNP could negate Force before and should go first.
C: Giving any precedence to powers that have no rule backing for going before identically worded SR's?
Edit: scratch similarly replace with identically
Really there is no reasoning at all in the anwser???
A: The roll to activate a Force Weapon is made before
determining whether or not the victim is permitted a Feel
No Pain roll
My emphasis ( btw that is reasoning it is also a why) ..... but anyways that right there is reasoning, which I again say builds on my idea that FNP can stop ES from activating because it can directly effect ES's activation. I know that SR's that are FAQ'd do not effect others but I think it's pretty simple to see that in other parts of the rules you use order of operations to determine things. For example, modifying a stat line, mutiplier, addtition subtraction, lastly Set value.
I am not one of those people who thought you could cancel force with FNP so your statement that others were doing it before has no bearing now to me, also it is not an assumption it is fact because that is what GW has directed us to do. Again by the FAQ.
I do not agree that ES goes before FNP and have explained why I believe so, in fact the wording from FNP can and does affect whether or not ES can activate, so with this in mind I again point to an order of operations to allow things to work. In this process I niether break any rules or create time warps, or make it so no rules are allowed to function properly. If you continue to argue that ES works regardless of FNP please show rules allowing you to treat a saved wound as unsaved and allowing you to activate SRs and break other ones.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/17 17:54:18
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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That is a result of the roll not the reasoning behind. If it had said that you were rolling first so that you could determine whether or not FNP could activate then it would have been the reason for checking it first. I'm not the one making a claim that there is a rule telling you to activate all abilities that can affect others first, you are. Unless you can back that with a rules quote you are making an assumption that it goes first. As such you are the one basically making up a rule unless you can give me a BRB quote telling you to do so..... Order of operations that you are looking at applies to math not sure what your line of thinking is to get this to apply to if then statements but please proceed.
The rule you are breaking by applying FNP at all if there is no unsaved wound is FNP, not to mention every other rule that states when a model suffers an unsaved wound do x. They all activate at the same time some even tell you to do x immediately. Where in FNP does it say it stops all activated SR's/powers? It doesn't even imply this, there is, on the other hand, part of FNP that keeps getting left out, discount. Discount does not mean negate nor does it mean it never existed it means that it started out as something and was changed.
" If you continue to argue that ES works regardless of FNP please show rules allowing you to treat a saved wound as unsaved and allowing you to activate SRs and break other ones. " It would be the same rule you are using to apply one activated SR but not others. There clearly was an unsaved wound or FNP could not activate. It has already activated nothing in FNP negates already activated SR's. If you are going to continue to argue that FNP negates everything please show proof in FNP that it affects anything but the wound, you do not have permission to pick and choose what is activated and what is not nor do you have permission to negate anything that is already activated.
Your belief that something that can negate something else automatically goes first needs to be backed by an actual rule otherwise you are simply doing what you want not actually following the rules. There is no rule that states if a trigger is removed the result is negated. There is no rule concerning the order at which SR's are activated and therefor resolved. Without a rule we have to assume it is simultaneously. There is no rule against this. There is a timing word put into some SR's which can be read to do these first.
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/17 18:17:43
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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Activating a special rules in an order based on the effect. You can't demand people show rules when yours is based on an assumption to how rules work. Special rules trigger and apply effects in order of trigger, we don't decide which ones can go first based on the effect- this has no basis in the rules.
To me, no, FNP can not resolve if force is successful, FNP says you can not roll it on ID. FNP does not say it negates all special rules which may have applied from a unsaved wound, or that it must be rolled for before applying effects from a unsaved wound, and ES does not say immediately on a unsaved wound (after other special rules).
Force activation successful, you are not permitted to roll FNP. If FNP is successful you can not roll Force. Your argument falls down there as if you must roll the cancelling first why Force and not FNP, as they will both stop the other from applying. One will always cancel out the other. This is not the case for ES and FNP. ES does not cancel FNP out.
If you ES is applied first, and FNP is successful, applying both effects in a consistent manner between both rules, then it's possible to apply both and nothing is broken. Mr Warlord lives, but is deprived of his armor save.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/17 18:26:46
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/17 20:46:55
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Gravmyr wrote:That is a result of the roll not the reasoning behind. If it had said that you were rolling first so that you could determine whether or not FNP could activate then it would have been the reason for checking it first. I'm not the one making a claim that there is a rule telling you to activate all abilities that can affect others first, you are. Unless you can back that with a rules quote you are making an assumption that it goes first. As such you are the one basically making up a rule unless you can give me a BRB quote telling you to do so..... Order of operations that you are looking at applies to math not sure what your line of thinking is to get this to apply to if then statements but please proceed.
The rule you are breaking by applying FNP at all if there is no unsaved wound is FNP, not to mention every other rule that states when a model suffers an unsaved wound do x. They all activate at the same time some even tell you to do x immediately. Where in FNP does it say it stops all activated SR's/powers? It doesn't even imply this, there is, on the other hand, part of FNP that keeps getting left out, discount. Discount does not mean negate nor does it mean it never existed it means that it started out as something and was changed.
" If you continue to argue that ES works regardless of FNP please show rules allowing you to treat a saved wound as unsaved and allowing you to activate SRs and break other ones. " It would be the same rule you are using to apply one activated SR but not others. There clearly was an unsaved wound or FNP could not activate. It has already activated nothing in FNP negates already activated SR's. If you are going to continue to argue that FNP negates everything please show proof in FNP that it affects anything but the wound, you do not have permission to pick and choose what is activated and what is not nor do you have permission to negate anything that is already activated.
Your belief that something that can negate something else automatically goes first needs to be backed by an actual rule otherwise you are simply doing what you want not actually following the rules. There is no rule that states if a trigger is removed the result is negated. There is no rule concerning the order at which SR's are activated and therefor resolved. Without a rule we have to assume it is simultaneously. There is no rule against this. There is a timing word put into some SR's which can be read to do these first.
The closest thing anyone can show you is a FAQ allowing FW to work before FNP. Stop trying to force the hand.
How. How. How.
After all these pages do people not see its gonna come down to a rule by rule allowance.
I wouldn't let Doom gain wounds m
I'm not so sure about ES.
The FAQ would let ES happen because it's fluffy but not Doom.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/17 23:59:36
Subject: FNP and Entropic Strike
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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In either case of the two major ideas on ES vs FNP, neither would be effected by any order of operations.
In Time Warp Theory, you go back in time and redo everything so that ES and FNP do not activate.
In Linear Timeline Theory, ES is not effected by any changes to the wound after it has been activated.
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-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/18 12:17:48
Subject: Re:FNP and Entropic Strike
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Stormbreed wrote: The closest thing anyone can show you is a FAQ allowing FW to work before FNP. Stop trying to force the hand. How. How. How. After all these pages do people not see its gonna come down to a rule by rule allowance. I wouldn't let Doom gain wounds m I'm not so sure about ES. The FAQ would let ES happen because it's fluffy but not Doom. I assume then that you are going to request that Dakka be shut down. The idea is to discuss and work out how people are coming up with the reasoning they are using to make their arguments. When someone is asking why you are not supporting their theory but they can't back up their own view then it's hard for someone to not ask why they are at their reading. The purpose of these discussion is to try to come to a consensus as to how something should work. If you can't show why you are choosing to do something based off of rules then most likely your reading is incorrect. IF people don't want to support their readings with rules then they probably should not be taking part in the discussion.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/18 12:20:26
ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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