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I need some advice on expanding upon my Thousand Sons/Prodigal Sons army (Haven't really decided yet, but I guess they're pretty much the same except that by fluff if I include Ahriman it'd be a Prodigal Sons army list). I know that it will be a pretty subpar list and I accept that by taking the list against competetive lists (or even other casual lists) I'll have less chance of winning than if I'd taken a pretty standard CSM list. Nevertheless, I'd still like to play this kind of fluffy list because I love the Thousand Sons lore and I love psykers in the 40k universe. But I still would like to win once in a while, so I need to know how to use everything to maximum potential. Everything from deployment and movement across the table to target priority and so on. I realize that a lot of this depends on the opponent and other factors but any general advice will do. I especially want to know what the "master plan" should be (advance towards objectives? sit on home objectives and shoot? target one flank and hopefully kill a lot before the opponent can relocate... etc.).

Anyway... These are the models available to me right now:
- Ahriman
- Chaos Sorcerer with Force Axe
- 2x Thousand Sons Sorcerer (Force Sword)
- 8 Thousand Sons
- 5 Warp Talons (looks pretty sweet with TS heads and tabards)

So, as you can see I don't have too many options right now.
As a next step I was thinking of getting 2 boxes of CSM and 2x TS Upgrade Pack. Together with the 3 TS heads I have left over I can make 19 Thousand Sons, 2 TS Sorcerers and then another model that I can convert to a Sorcerer or Tzeentch Chaos Lord
This would allow me to field a total of 3 10-man Thousand Sons squads.

Beyond that however I was considering MoT Obliterators (converted to look like Sorcerers in TDA), MoT Terminators, Havocs with Plasma Guns and Tri-Las Predator. Maybe use Chaos Daemons allies (Tzeentch only).
Obliterators add much needed Anti-Tank as well as Anti-TEQ and Anti-Horde weapons. Basically they have versatility that Thousand Sons lack and is probably one of the best choices. Terminators are probably also a good choice but I'm not sure how to equip them (maybe all combi-meltas?). Havocs with Plasma Guns to go with Ahriman (saw this used by Brometheus on these forums) just sounds incredibly fun and their role would obviously be Light AT and Anti-TEQ. A Tri-Las Predator also adds much needed AT but then I would probably need Rhinos as armor saturation (read below), I feel that it's probably better to spend the points on 2 Obliterators though. I'm not sure which units to pick from Chaos Daemons, but a unit of Pink Horrors behind an ADL is probably good for home objective and then maybe Fateweaver or a Lord of Change and a unit of Screamers. Maybe a CD Tzeentch Daemon Prince aswell.

I generally want to avoid certain units that I feel doesn't really go that well with the fluff and units that I don't really want in the list:
- Regular CSM
- Cultists (Kind of fits fluff so I guess I could take them anyway)
- Units with other marks than MoT
- Rhinos (Due to being a bit of a hassle to bring several of them with me, will most likely take them later on when I can transport them properly)
- Bikes and Spawn
- Heldrakes (I don't really like them, but might take one because they're so good, but also same problem as Rhinos)
- Defilers/Forgefiends/Maulerfiends/Vindicators


So I'm probably looking at this as a base to build lists upon
Ahriman
3x 10 Thousand Sons (incl. Sorcerer)
= 1025 points

What would you do at different point costs (1000, 1500, 2000) given the limitations I have provided?

I know that it will be a pretty subpar list and I accept that by taking the list against competetive lists (or even other casual lists) I'll have less chance of winning than if I'd taken a pretty standard CSM list. Nevertheless, I'd still like to play this kind of fluffy list because I love the Thousand Sons lore and I love psykers in the 40k universe. But I still would like to win once in a while

You could play with your mates, who are less likely to throw quadtide + hellserpent allies at you, or even allow you to change the rules to make Thousand Sons less gak (their 3.5 codex rules were amazing - immunity to S4 or worse weapons)

If you like forgeworld, the tzeentch marked decimator with twin butcher cannons is nothing to sneeze at. A lot of str 8 shots on a survivable platform re-rolling 1's to hit.

Well, first I'd have to say that Thousand Sons actually can be used competitively.

While they are certainly not considered 'top tier,' my Thousand Sons have defeated many of the so called top tier armies and net lists.

They definitely rely strongly on the tactical acumen of the general, however this could be said of any army.

First, I'll tell you what I like about your ideas, and then offer some ideas for possible improvement.

Tactics wise, if you are reading batreps and tactics by Brometheus, that is a great start. I too have read a lot of his posts, and he knows his stuff.

I like your ideas for the Obliterator/ sorcerers. They are a great addition, as they always have the right weapon for the job.

Allying with Tzeentch daemons is a great idea. This is especially true if you're rolling with a plasma gun squad. These guys always welcome a little help from prescience.

Try to get some speed in your list. The ability to maneuver, to go where you want and fight where you want, is often the difference between victory and defeat.

I actually like using spawn. Fluff wise, the sons don't want anything to do with the flesh change, but they would have no problem 'gifting' cultists with it. In fact, up until this present codex, the Thousand Sons made a habit of turning their enemies into spawn who then fought alongside them.

Anyway, these are just a few ideas, and I am sure that you will receive many more. I hope that you find these helpful.

Cool stuff, man! I haven't played Chaos in 40k (though I do in Fantasy) and if I were to take it up, it would be the Thousand Sons that I would want to model and build an army with, for exactly the reasons you have outlined.

Another possibility in terms of getting games in would be to look at the on-going Horus Heresy series, and try to run a Legion army with Thousand Sons. I hope that in the 3rd book they continue to introduce Heresy-era Legions, and the Thousand Sons could be one of those that comes into the story--they and the Space Wolves, perhaps? That's a long-term goal, but given the long list of models you are thinking of buying and/or converting, that might work in your favor.

I'm just happy to see other players caught up in the Fluffy awesomeness of the 40k universe. I play Blood Angels for the same reason, and have had a ton of fun converting and painting them (if not winning...). So, good luck, and perhaps post photos of your converted units as the army comes together?

For the OP:

First: If you are interested in knowing the one single "goal" a Thousand Sons player should have during the game, it would probably be to Rapid Fire and follow up with a charge as much as possible. For example: Thousand Sons suck in combat, right? Well, when those Sternguard drop in and shoot your demon prince or something, that Thousand Sons squad lurking nearby (you're playing your Thousand Sons army close instead of spreading units out, right? Right!) will be closing with the enemy to charge after a rapid fire. You will be surprised how many terminators die from this, especially due to Veterans of the Long War.

Second: HQs. Don't be afraid to run a Chaos Sorcerer with Ahriman, but remember: The Mark of Tzeentch is not required since Ahriman unlocks Tsons as Troops, and it makes sense that he recruits talent from guys who are not Thousand Sons. The ability to roll 3x on Telepathy is too good to pass up, but remember: There are too many Witchfire powers out there and sometimes your awesome Level 3 with Spell Familiar will have 2-3. What a waste, since he can't use them. If Ahriman is taken, it's okay to have him be your only HQ. Don't bother taking a CSM Demon Prince with him. You should be using Allies if you want a good Demon Prince.

Third: Demons. It's no secret that Thousand Sons are hurting for forces in the fluff. It is 100% alright to ally with Tzeentch Demons to bulk your forces, even if people hate how nasty their abilities are with a passion. Don't be afraid to summon help in the form of Screamers and don't let anyone guilt you into not doing it. They take heat off your expensive Thousand Sons and Horrors can hold home objectives so that the Thousand Sons can do what they do best: Shoot at 12".

Fourth: The problem with Tzeentch Obliterators is that you should be in cover all the time, so the 4+ Invulnerable doesn't help much. MoN is best, but more Demons are better than any Obliterators. :p

If you want to discuss Tzeentchy stuff more, Rae, I am always up for helpin'. I love our Codex. When I play among friends privately, I use my own ruleset. I encourage you to make rules to enjoy your Prodigal Sons, but try to master the GW ones first. It's a rewarding challenge and people like seeing Thousand Sons.

Legionnaire: Thank you very much that means a lot.

 Raezazel wrote:


I generally want to avoid certain units that I feel doesn't really go that well with the fluff and units that I don't really want in the list:
- Regular CSM
- Cultists (Kind of fits fluff so I guess I could take them anyway)
- Units with other marks than MoT
- Rhinos (Due to being a bit of a hassle to bring several of them with me, will most likely take them later on when I can transport them properly)
- Bikes and Spawn
- Heldrakes (I don't really like them, but might take one because they're so good, but also same problem as Rhinos)
- Defilers/Forgefiends/Maulerfiends/Vindicators


So I'm probably looking at this as a base to build lists upon
Ahriman
3x 10 Thousand Sons (incl. Sorcerer)
= 1025 points

What would you do at different point costs (1000, 1500, 2000) given the limitations I have provided?

You could go with a Traitor IG allie for "Spire Guard".
Heldrakes = get a WHF Phoenix or 2
Spawn = T sons mutated in the HH.
Forge/Mauler fiends = get WHF Sphinx to sit in for one of these
Terminators work well w/ MoT

Chaos Legionnaire wrote:Well, first I'd have to say that Thousand Sons actually can be used competitively.

While they are certainly not considered 'top tier,' my Thousand Sons have defeated many of the so called top tier armies and net lists.

They definitely rely strongly on the tactical acumen of the general, however this could be said of any army.

First, I'll tell you what I like about your ideas, and then offer some ideas for possible improvement.

Tactics wise, if you are reading batreps and tactics by Brometheus, that is a great start. I too have read a lot of his posts, and he knows his stuff.

I like your ideas for the Obliterator/ sorcerers. They are a great addition, as they always have the right weapon for the job.

Allying with Tzeentch daemons is a great idea. This is especially true if you're rolling with a plasma gun squad. These guys always welcome a little help from prescience.

Try to get some speed in your list. The ability to maneuver, to go where you want and fight where you want, is often the difference between victory and defeat.

I actually like using spawn. Fluff wise, the sons don't want anything to do with the flesh change, but they would have no problem 'gifting' cultists with it. In fact, up until this present codex, the Thousand Sons made a habit of turning their enemies into spawn who then fought alongside them.

Anyway, these are just a few ideas, and I am sure that you will receive many more. I hope that you find these helpful.

Hm. I didn't think of prescience for the plasma gun squad, that's a pretty good idea. What would be the best platform for this? A Lord of Change, CD Tzeentch Daemon Prince or a Herald? I'm thinking a herald would be pretty cheap but then the plasma gun squad needs to stay close to the unit of horrors he'll most likely be in (or the horrors have to follow them instead of sitting on an objective).

Is it enough speed in the list if I ally in daemons (flying MCs and screamers for speed) and have infiltrate on the Thousand Sons from Ahriman? Of course infiltrate won't allow them to react to the opponent unless they outflank, but it can get them closer a bit faster. Maybe I could use spawn as well, I guess they're a pretty good distraction.

pantheralegionnaire wrote:Cool stuff, man! I haven't played Chaos in 40k (though I do in Fantasy) and if I were to take it up, it would be the Thousand Sons that I would want to model and build an army with, for exactly the reasons you have outlined.

Another possibility in terms of getting games in would be to look at the on-going Horus Heresy series, and try to run a Legion army with Thousand Sons. I hope that in the 3rd book they continue to introduce Heresy-era Legions, and the Thousand Sons could be one of those that comes into the story--they and the Space Wolves, perhaps? That's a long-term goal, but given the long list of models you are thinking of buying and/or converting, that might work in your favor.

I'm just happy to see other players caught up in the Fluffy awesomeness of the 40k universe. I play Blood Angels for the same reason, and have had a ton of fun converting and painting them (if not winning...). So, good luck, and perhaps post photos of your converted units as the army comes together?

It would be pretty sweet to have Heresy-era Thousand Sons aswell, but for now this army will do . I really hope that Thousand Sons will recieve a codex supplement at some point, they're unique enough to deserve one.

Brometheus wrote:For the OP:

First: If you are interested in knowing the one single "goal" a Thousand Sons player should have during the game, it would probably be to Rapid Fire and follow up with a charge as much as possible. For example: Thousand Sons suck in combat, right? Well, when those Sternguard drop in and shoot your demon prince or something, that Thousand Sons squad lurking nearby (you're playing your Thousand Sons army close instead of spreading units out, right? Right!) will be closing with the enemy to charge after a rapid fire. You will be surprised how many terminators die from this, especially due to Veterans of the Long War.

Second: HQs. Don't be afraid to run a Chaos Sorcerer with Ahriman, but remember: The Mark of Tzeentch is not required since Ahriman unlocks Tsons as Troops, and it makes sense that he recruits talent from guys who are not Thousand Sons. The ability to roll 3x on Telepathy is too good to pass up, but remember: There are too many Witchfire powers out there and sometimes your awesome Level 3 with Spell Familiar will have 2-3. What a waste, since he can't use them. If Ahriman is taken, it's okay to have him be your only HQ. Don't bother taking a CSM Demon Prince with him. You should be using Allies if you want a good Demon Prince.

Third: Demons. It's no secret that Thousand Sons are hurting for forces in the fluff. It is 100% alright to ally with Tzeentch Demons to bulk your forces, even if people hate how nasty their abilities are with a passion. Don't be afraid to summon help in the form of Screamers and don't let anyone guilt you into not doing it. They take heat off your expensive Thousand Sons and Horrors can hold home objectives so that the Thousand Sons can do what they do best: Shoot at 12".

Fourth: The problem with Tzeentch Obliterators is that you should be in cover all the time, so the 4+ Invulnerable doesn't help much. MoN is best, but more Demons are better than any Obliterators. :p

If you want to discuss Tzeentchy stuff more, Rae, I am always up for helpin'. I love our Codex. When I play among friends privately, I use my own ruleset. I encourage you to make rules to enjoy your Prodigal Sons, but try to master the GW ones first. It's a rewarding challenge and people like seeing Thousand Sons.

Legionnaire: Thank you very much that means a lot.

So I gather that I should keep the army close together But how do this work with Master of Deception? Should they infiltrate together in front of the already deployed units or should one or two units infiltrate on the opponents flank?
It also makes sense to charge after shooting, but should I opt to do this at all times even if the enemy wouldn't charge so the Thousand Sons could shoot again next turn (instead of possibly being locked in CC)?

And on the topic of psychic powers I thought I'd be rolling 1x Tzeentch, 2x Telepathy and 1x Biomancy (for the triple witchfire and maybe Invisibility) with Ahriman if I'd go with Plasma Havocs but otherwise I thought I'd roll 1x Tzeentch and 3x Telepathy to try and get things like Dominate, Hallucination and Terrify to reduce incoming fire. Would you say an extra Sorcerer with 3x Telepathy is better than allying in a Herald, Lord of Change or Daemon Prince. If I'm taking allies I'll have to take one of those anyway, but say if I want the Daemon Prince as Heavy Support, would the points be better spent on a 3xTelepathy Sorcerer?

So I'm leaning towards using Daemon allies and right now I'm thinking of an army along these lines for 1500 points:
Ahriman
2x 10-man Thousand Sons
5-man Havocs squad with Plasma Pistol and 4 Plasma Guns
Lord of Change (Mastery Level 3, Exalted Reward)
15 Pink Horrors
6 Screamers

Get Portalglyph for the Lord of Change
It would be pretty fun to equip the Havocs Aspiring Champion with 2 Plasma Pistols but a bit costly (would look awesome though)

Anything with a Invuln save is better with MoT. While I agree Oblits are best as MoN with VotLW, I feel MoT is the second best option. Just remember if you take more than one in a unit, to give them all Vets to give them a Leadership boost. But I am getting ahead of myself. Lets go slot by slot.

Troops:
To be honest, I think you /should/ consider CSMs with MoT (for your fluff, you can still make them look like TSons) and a Icon of Vengeance or Icon of Flame. A 10 man mob of TSons is just so damn expensive point wise at around 280pts with bare basic upgrades (Melta bomb and a Gift... that Sorc /has/ to issue/accept challenges). A CSM squad of 10 with a pair of Plasma guns, a Melta bomb, with MoT and IoV is 235pts. Your list is going to be foot slogging it, so the more guys you get, the bigger the point spread and the bigger the cost of those TSons. To be honest, I don't blame you for not wanting Cultists or regular CSMs, but you really need the special weapons to at least support the TSons to deal with Vehicles, MCs, and Walkers.

Elites:
Terminators are your best bet with your Elite slots, and I think MoT Terminators are really strong. But you have two choices here on how you want to use them, and it depends on how you build your list. If you want your Terminators to really shoulder the load of the fighting (your sending them after the enemies hardest unit and expecting them to win or at least neutralize it, then you want a bigger squad and have it loaded out. This unit would be a good spot for a second HQ in Terminator armor DSing in, shooting, and then hopefully surviving with the 2+/4++ saves to shoot and charge or accept a charge from the enemy. We might be talking a Lord to make them Fearless or another Sorc in Terminator armor with a Icon of Vengeance (or both if your not using Ahriman with a IoF or no Icon at all). This unit will probably be the most expensive unit in your list, not counting HQs.

Your other option is Termincide, where you have minimum 3 man squads with Combi-Meltas or Combi-Plasmas and you DS them down and shoot their wad and write them off after that. At that point, your wasting points for marks, but I consider it a fluff point that you still put MoTs on them, kinda for the same reason you would put MoT on CSMs. Don't be afraid to then maybe spend some more points on them for a Chainfist on a normal guy. Remember the Terminator Champs stuff is the more expensive stuff on pg 91 of the codex.

Fast:
A 5 man squad of Warp Talons with MoT is 190pts. Yeah, 4++ saves (they are demons and have a natural 5++) make them more useful, but their targets are troops only. You probably can't afford the points to drop on them when you will need two troop selections and if you /really/ want to make those troop selections TSons. And yeah, when you can get a Helldrake 20pts cheaper, you have to either really love your Warp Talons or really hate Helldrakes.

Heavy:
I honestly feel the best bang for your buck is two Preds with LC Sponsons and AC Turrets and two Oblits with Marks and Vets. You can even throw Havoc Launchers on the Preds to help for dealing with Hoards for cheap. But the total cost for those 3 units should be 352pts (without Havoc launchers). I like the Preds because they will be firing 4 shots (2AC/2LC) a turn (unless AV 14, then 2 LC shots), every turn. The Oblits can give you the versatility you want to deal with any target and even for DSing in. That rule where they can't fire the same weapon every turn is a pain if your depending on them for your main AT IMO, you want something like the Preds that are more consistent. The Preds at 115pts each just gives you more bang for your buck to not take them.

Obviously I don't know how you play, so I can't tell you what is best for you to use, but you have a pretty good idea of what you want to use and what you don't want to use. As for points, a good rule of thumb is 1000pts, 1500pts, 1850pts and 1999+1 or 2kpts. Most Tourneys run 1850pts, so if you play at a store you might want to shoot for that. For a minimum I would shoot for 1000pts and then build your way up as time and money permit. Obviously, try to magnetize vehicles and troops/HQs to give you the greatest versatility for the minimum amount of models. You might want to get a DP and a Spawn model just because you /could/ win a challenge and mutate, so I suggest getting them or be prepared to proxy them.

Another option you can do is model the figs to be correct, but using the TSons bits and just call them TSons, but use something like Plague marines for their stats and rules. Call them Eldrich Hulks or Fire Guard or whatever you want. This can open up the whole codex to you, but allow you to paint and use the fluff you want. Obviously you can't do something like give Plague Marines a Icon of Flame or MoT. You have to make them legal and follow all the normal rules and make sure you explain everything to your opponent. Most people will not care. Heck, I have a friend who has a Crimson Fist army but uses the Space Wolf Codex for it. You would be doing the same thing, but within the same codex.

You can even do something like make your Lord a different Mark and have two elite choices as troops and mix and match, so you can even keep Ahriman and a unit of TSons AND have Plague/Noise/Bezerkers, but painted up as TSons. This will still give you the feel of a TSon army, but with the option of mixing in better units to support your TSons instead of CSMs but still allowing your whole list to look like TSons. Just remember a Character with one Mark can not join a squad of a different Mark. Abbadon though, has every Mark and thus can join any unit and can gain benefits from their Icons, he just unlocks Chosen instead of another Cult Elite. I am just tossing out options, you do not have to use them.

Good luck and enjoy!

Never expect anyone to let Thousand Sons shoot at them twice if they are within range to charge. They will charge with 5 Scouts if they have to, because we can't Overwatch anyway. And in that charge you'll lose 3-4 Thousand Sons just from damn armor saves. Always better to charge when possible, so long as you are close enough.

Infiltrating always depends on the deployment. It's hard to say, but I'll think of some guidance for that topic and post soon. I guess what I mean is that if you infiltrate more than one unit, they should all be close to each other (as should the rest of your Deployed army).

Any Warp Charge 2 power is a waste on Ahriman, in my book. He should be using 4 Psychic Powers a turn if possible, because you are paying for the extra Wound and the ML: 4. Say you roll up 3 Witchfires and Hallucination, you might op for Hallucination that turn.. That means you're left with only two Witchfires to use. But if the enemy is in range (and they should be, since you can Outflank or Infiltrate Ahriman), then you should be popping those 3x Witchfires.

Powers are tricky. It depends on what you roll before each game, of course. For example: If I roll up Doombolt and then Life Leech, it makes sense to roll on Biomancy again. If you end up with Iron Arm, you might as well roll again. Even if you get Endurance at this point, it's better to just default to Smite for the 3x Witchfires. That's no Telepathy, but it means that you can make use of a ML: 4 properly.

If it's between a Level 3 CSM Sorcerer or a *single* demon prince, I would take the Sorcerer because Princes are best when taken in pairs or more.

At 1750 I found it was more effective for myself to run my daemons as primary. I took the following list and blew away a nid dual dakka flyrant list pretty solidly.

Lord of change with exalted reward, 2x lesser rewards and: ML3
2x herald of tzeench: ML3 one exalted and one w standard of conjuration
20 horrors
10 horrors.

Sorcerer: ML3 in termie armor, brand, spell familiar.

2x 10 csm in rhino: dual melts, dual flamer, champs w power weapon and plasma pistol. Rhino: gargoyle and havoc launcher

3x obliterators w mark of tzeench.

Works really well. The key was to focus the horrors at monsters at str 5 and 6. And hold the marines for counter assault and fire support. The lord of change is an absolute monster and when used properly really messes with your opponents head :-)

BlkTom wrote:Anything with a Invuln save is better with MoT. While I agree Oblits are best as MoN with VotLW, I feel MoT is the second best option. Just remember if you take more than one in a unit, to give them all Vets to give them a Leadership boost. But I am getting ahead of myself. Lets go slot by slot.

Troops:
To be honest, I think you /should/ consider CSMs with MoT (for your fluff, you can still make them look like TSons) and a Icon of Vengeance or Icon of Flame. A 10 man mob of TSons is just so damn expensive point wise at around 280pts with bare basic upgrades (Melta bomb and a Gift... that Sorc /has/ to issue/accept challenges). A CSM squad of 10 with a pair of Plasma guns, a Melta bomb, with MoT and IoV is 235pts. Your list is going to be foot slogging it, so the more guys you get, the bigger the point spread and the bigger the cost of those TSons. To be honest, I don't blame you for not wanting Cultists or regular CSMs, but you really need the special weapons to at least support the TSons to deal with Vehicles, MCs, and Walkers.

Elites:
Terminators are your best bet with your Elite slots, and I think MoT Terminators are really strong. But you have two choices here on how you want to use them, and it depends on how you build your list. If you want your Terminators to really shoulder the load of the fighting (your sending them after the enemies hardest unit and expecting them to win or at least neutralize it, then you want a bigger squad and have it loaded out. This unit would be a good spot for a second HQ in Terminator armor DSing in, shooting, and then hopefully surviving with the 2+/4++ saves to shoot and charge or accept a charge from the enemy. We might be talking a Lord to make them Fearless or another Sorc in Terminator armor with a Icon of Vengeance (or both if your not using Ahriman with a IoF or no Icon at all). This unit will probably be the most expensive unit in your list, not counting HQs.

Your other option is Termincide, where you have minimum 3 man squads with Combi-Meltas or Combi-Plasmas and you DS them down and shoot their wad and write them off after that. At that point, your wasting points for marks, but I consider it a fluff point that you still put MoTs on them, kinda for the same reason you would put MoT on CSMs. Don't be afraid to then maybe spend some more points on them for a Chainfist on a normal guy. Remember the Terminator Champs stuff is the more expensive stuff on pg 91 of the codex.

Fast:
A 5 man squad of Warp Talons with MoT is 190pts. Yeah, 4++ saves (they are demons and have a natural 5++) make them more useful, but their targets are troops only. You probably can't afford the points to drop on them when you will need two troop selections and if you /really/ want to make those troop selections TSons. And yeah, when you can get a Helldrake 20pts cheaper, you have to either really love your Warp Talons or really hate Helldrakes.

Heavy:
I honestly feel the best bang for your buck is two Preds with LC Sponsons and AC Turrets and two Oblits with Marks and Vets. You can even throw Havoc Launchers on the Preds to help for dealing with Hoards for cheap. But the total cost for those 3 units should be 352pts (without Havoc launchers). I like the Preds because they will be firing 4 shots (2AC/2LC) a turn (unless AV 14, then 2 LC shots), every turn. The Oblits can give you the versatility you want to deal with any target and even for DSing in. That rule where they can't fire the same weapon every turn is a pain if your depending on them for your main AT IMO, you want something like the Preds that are more consistent. The Preds at 115pts each just gives you more bang for your buck to not take them.

Obviously I don't know how you play, so I can't tell you what is best for you to use, but you have a pretty good idea of what you want to use and what you don't want to use. As for points, a good rule of thumb is 1000pts, 1500pts, 1850pts and 1999+1 or 2kpts. Most Tourneys run 1850pts, so if you play at a store you might want to shoot for that. For a minimum I would shoot for 1000pts and then build your way up as time and money permit. Obviously, try to magnetize vehicles and troops/HQs to give you the greatest versatility for the minimum amount of models. You might want to get a DP and a Spawn model just because you /could/ win a challenge and mutate, so I suggest getting them or be prepared to proxy them.

Another option you can do is model the figs to be correct, but using the TSons bits and just call them TSons, but use something like Plague marines for their stats and rules. Call them Eldrich Hulks or Fire Guard or whatever you want. This can open up the whole codex to you, but allow you to paint and use the fluff you want. Obviously you can't do something like give Plague Marines a Icon of Flame or MoT. You have to make them legal and follow all the normal rules and make sure you explain everything to your opponent. Most people will not care. Heck, I have a friend who has a Crimson Fist army but uses the Space Wolf Codex for it. You would be doing the same thing, but within the same codex.

You can even do something like make your Lord a different Mark and have two elite choices as troops and mix and match, so you can even keep Ahriman and a unit of TSons AND have Plague/Noise/Bezerkers, but painted up as TSons. This will still give you the feel of a TSon army, but with the option of mixing in better units to support your TSons instead of CSMs but still allowing your whole list to look like TSons. Just remember a Character with one Mark can not join a squad of a different Mark. Abbadon though, has every Mark and thus can join any unit and can gain benefits from their Icons, he just unlocks Chosen instead of another Cult Elite. I am just tossing out options, you do not have to use them.

Good luck and enjoy!

I don't really want to take regular CSM (or using Thousand Sons as count-as Plague Marines for example) due to the fact that it makes the fluff and rules kind of feel out of touch with eachother and if I used both Thousand Sons and regular CSM but they both look the same it'd feel a bit inconsistent. I wasn't going to take Havocs for the same reason but after seeing the plasma gun squad with Ahriman it just looked like too much fun. So I just have to include them at some point. The Warp Talons (or any other daemons) has a pretty good fluff <-> rules feel to them because they can at least have a 4++ as the Thousand Sons can which brings them a bit closer to the Thousand Sons rules. And Obliterators make great count-as Sorcerers due to the large weapon loadout being pretty good count-as psychic powers. The way I think may be a bit arbitrary, but I guess it makes sense to me at least

Now, on Terminators... I'm not entirely sure about using a Termicide unit but the other option of a bigger squad is a bit tempting. However, I feel like after spending a lot of points on a few Thousand Sons squads I really need some reliable ranged AT and I'm not sure that a big Terminator squad (by the way, how big would you suggest? 5? 7-8? 10?) could replace that role since they can probably only reliably take down one vehicle after Deep Striking (other vehicles will probably keep away from them). Although they will probably provide a pretty damn good distraction for the Thousand Sons and can tear up some units in the opponents backfield or force them to choose between getting charged by Terminators or moving out from their cover and get mowed down by Thousand Sons. Maybe if I can work in some dedicated AT in the list.

I like the idea to use Predators with AC/2LC as they seem to provide a good amount of long range firepower for relatively cheap and as you said, obliterators can be inconsistent with long range AT (but are pretty good under 24" due to having other options there). However, is it not worth upgrading the predator to triple-LC for 25 more points to get a twin-linked LC (one less shot but at higher S). Although now that I'm thinking about it I guess the answer is no.

Brometheus wrote:Never expect anyone to let Thousand Sons shoot at them twice if they are within range to charge. They will charge with 5 Scouts if they have to, because we can't Overwatch anyway. And in that charge you'll lose 3-4 Thousand Sons just from damn armor saves. Always better to charge when possible, so long as you are close enough.

Infiltrating always depends on the deployment. It's hard to say, but I'll think of some guidance for that topic and post soon. I guess what I mean is that if you infiltrate more than one unit, they should all be close to each other (as should the rest of your Deployed army).

Any Warp Charge 2 power is a waste on Ahriman, in my book. He should be using 4 Psychic Powers a turn if possible, because you are paying for the extra Wound and the ML: 4. Say you roll up 3 Witchfires and Hallucination, you might op for Hallucination that turn.. That means you're left with only two Witchfires to use. But if the enemy is in range (and they should be, since you can Outflank or Infiltrate Ahriman), then you should be popping those 3x Witchfires.

Powers are tricky. It depends on what you roll before each game, of course. For example: If I roll up Doombolt and then Life Leech, it makes sense to roll on Biomancy again. If you end up with Iron Arm, you might as well roll again. Even if you get Endurance at this point, it's better to just default to Smite for the 3x Witchfires. That's no Telepathy, but it means that you can make use of a ML: 4 properly.

If it's between a Level 3 CSM Sorcerer or a *single* demon prince, I would take the Sorcerer because Princes are best when taken in pairs or more.

It is kind of sad that Ahriman, the leader of the Corvidae Cult pre-heresy, doesn't get access to Divination like Tigurius do... But anyhow, which discipline do you prefer to roll powers from? To me Biomancy seems to be good for Iron Arm, Enfeeble and Endurance (although less so when cast on TS because the only thing they benefit from is the FNP part). The other powers are also good of course (except maybe Haemorrhage and Warp Speed?) but not why I would choose this discipline. Telepathy seems to be good for Hallucination, Puppet Master and Invisibility (less so for TS because they only really benefit in close combat, unless they're sitting in cover in which case it's still nice) with the other powers, except Mental Fortitude, being decent as well. Pyromancy only seems to be good for Fiery Form, Molten Beam and maybe Spontaneous Combustion, but they all seem worse than biomancy and telepathy powers.
As I said before I'd probably roll Tzeentch first and then twice on telepathy and unless I get malediction telepathy powers roll once for biomancy otherwise roll again on telepathy. Would it be smarter to roll for biomancy first (as your example suggests) in case you do get Iron Arm, which in my case I'd have to swap for Smite or otherwise only have 2 witchfire powers (unless I rolled puppet master and also had psychic shriek and a tzeentch witchfire).
Basically what I'm asking is: is there must-have powers in biomancy (for example) that I should try to get or does it all ultimately come down to personal preference?
And I understand that Ahriman should almost always go for 3 Witchfires, but what about a normal ML3 non-MoT sorcerer? Should he always have one witchfire power or none at all if possible?



I've also been thinking a little bit about the squad sizes of Thousand Sons. Is a 10 man squad a good size when not taking Rhinos? is there ever a reason to take a 5-man squad? For example if the list included 2 10-man squads and a 5-man squad for home objective/ADL. Is there also ever a reason to go the MSU route and take 5-man squads instead of 10-man squads? What about bigger squads than 10-man?
Also, as I said I'll probably work rhinos into the list later on. But are they really super-important or does Master of Deception from Ahriman (albeit a bit random) negate their impact for the army enough to skip them entirely?

First off I want to say that I too have been talking to Brometheus a lot and he has excellent experience and advice, and hes very friendly and helpful.
His idea of putting the havocs in a rhino with Ahriman also sounded really powerful to me, but then I went to mathhammer and ran some ap2 numbers:

Against Terminators:
5 tzeentch termies with vets and p.axes: without including combi-bolter fire during the shooting phase before a charge, they cause 21.17 unsaved wounds on a charge and 11.67 unsaved wounds in sequential combat according to math hammer,
compared to:
the havocs in rhino: 6.667 cause unsaved wounds rapid fire with both the champion and rhinos combi-plasmas, and cause 5 unsaved wounds rapid fire in sequential turns.

both groups are the same amount of points if you take out a TSon and stick ahriman in his place in the rhino. The termies are more survivable to small arms fire (which is something TSons desperately need), wont kill themselves (overheating plasma guns), require no infiltrate to get into combat (Deep strike), and are more versatile with powerful shooting and CC, in addition to having more killing power as stated above. Since we're already infiltrating 2 thousand sons squads usually, I don't want to bet on rolling a 3 for infiltrate. The deep striking (Cant believe Im saying this) adds more reliability to the list.

I've talked to him about this and he agreed, but mentioned to keep in mind that the havocs can hold objectives in big guns never tire.

Also there is a downside, and that is that the terminators need to get into CC and that they swing at I1, so all of them may not be alive by the time they start wounding.

I've also been thinking a little bit about the squad sizes of Thousand Sons. Is a 10 man squad a good size when not taking Rhinos? is there ever a reason to take a 5-man squad? For example if the list included 2 10-man squads and a 5-man squad for home objective/ADL. Is there also ever a reason to go the MSU route and take 5-man squads instead of 10-man squads? What about bigger squads than 10-man?
Also, as I said I'll probably work rhinos into the list later on. But are they really super-important or does Master of Deception from Ahriman (albeit a bit random) negate their impact for the army enough to skip them entirely?

 changerofways wrote:
First off I want to say that I too have been talking to Brometheus a lot and he has excellent experience and advice, and hes very friendly and helpful.
His idea of putting the havocs in a rhino with Ahriman also sounded really powerful to me, but then I went to mathhammer and ran some ap2 numbers:

Against Terminators:
5 tzeentch termies with vets and p.axes: without including combi-bolter fire during the shooting phase before a charge, they cause 21.17 unsaved wounds on a charge and 11.67 unsaved wounds in sequential combat according to math hammer,
compared to:
the havocs in rhino: 6.667 cause unsaved wounds rapid fire with both the champion and rhinos combi-plasmas, and cause 5 unsaved wounds rapid fire in sequential turns.

both groups are the same amount of points if you take out a TSon and stick ahriman in his place in the rhino. The termies are more survivable to small arms fire (which is something TSons desperately need), wont kill themselves (overheating plasma guns), require no infiltrate to get into combat (Deep strike), and are more versatile with powerful shooting and CC, in addition to having more killing power as stated above. Since we're already infiltrating 2 thousand sons squads usually, I don't want to bet on rolling a 3 for infiltrate. The deep striking (Cant believe Im saying this) adds more reliability to the list.

I've talked to him about this and he agreed, but mentioned to keep in mind that the havocs can hold objectives in big guns never tire.

Also there is a downside, and that is that the terminators need to get into CC and that they swing at I1, so all of them may not be alive by the time they start wounding.

21,17 unsaved wounds on a charge sounds a little too much given they have 15 attacks on a charge (10 base, 5 for charge and 0 for double CCW). Anyway I'm getting about 9 unsaved wounds on a charge with 5 combi-bolters firing in the shooting phase. Against normal Space Marines of course. This is with 5 MoT Terminators with only combi-bolters and Power Axes and VotLW for 197 points.

The MoT Havocs cause close to 7 unsaved wounds on a charge (although maybe you don't want to charge in which case it'd be about 5,5 unsaved wounds). This is with 4 Plasma Guns and 2 Plasma Pistols from champion and VotLW for CC, 180 points.

The Terminators still come out on top of this though and any overwatch casualties is probably negated by Gets Hot wounds for Havocs in the long run. You bring up some other valid points so I'll consider taking Terminators instead of the Havocs. The other upside to the Havocs is that they can take on vehicles at range if you really needed it and they can get some relatively cheap meat shields espacially if they don't have MoT and VotLW.

Isn't it worth taking Power Fists and one or two Chainfists instead of Power Axes though? They're not going to get an extra attack anyway and for 7 points you get S8 instead of S5 which is pretty good in my opinion. And are Combi-meltas and Reaper Autocannon a good buy?

Brometheus wrote:Well.. Invisibility is great if you happen to have cover. Giving Thousand Sons cover from a unit in front of them is pretty nice if they're going to be out in the open.. So that's 2+ Cover with Invis up but only from certain directions. Telepathy is the superior discipline.. but Biomancy gives Ahriman what he needs which is enhanced durability and good Witchfires. A power you generate should always determine where you roll next/if you switch to Primaris. You want to roll on Tzeentch because you'll know if you have Breath of Chaos or not.

The "must-have" powers depend on what you want Ahriman to do. For example: if you roll Boon of Mutation and then Iron Arm on Biomancy, it's probably okay to roll the rest on Biomancy to make Ahriman a tougher Warlord.

Ideally... A level 3 Sorcerer should have Invisibility or Hallucination by the time you get done rollin'. Whatever Witchfire he has doesn't matter because you'll be too busy laughing like crazy. If you get Invisibility/Hallucination first try, it's okay to put the rest in Biomancy for some AP2, or Pyromancy vs. Horde.. and yes- Personal Preference is big.

You should always take Rhinos. If not, auto-infiltrating a unit of 13-17 Rubricae is okay, but make sure they have Melta Bombs and spend all your rolls on Biomancy where possible for Endurance.

Thousand Sons just can't handle small arms fire. 5man units do not last. I recommend avoiding this.

Rhinos are needed when you use Master of Deception because without them, it's almost impossible to have a unit of Tsons (or 3) rapid firing in the first turn. Move 6", disembark, fire.

I'll try to get Rhinos as soon as I can in that case. Is it worth upgrading them at all? Havoc Launcher seems pretty decent. I'm guessing the Aspiring Sorcerers should also have Melta Bombs even if they go in Rhinos.

Against good opponents who are wise to Thousand Sons goodies those Rhinos won't last after turn 1, so best to keep them cheap. I learned this after I ran Extra Armor and Havoc Launchers or Combi-Meltas on every Rhino for about a year.

If you can spare 5pts and you know there are Soulgrinders and Ironclads/Furiosos in your area, then yes you need Melta Bombs on every unit. Otherwise, just have sufficient anti-tank for the odd Dread. 5 pts is hard to find in Tsons lists, lol. My basic bare-bones 2k list is:

1997
Ahriman
Sorcerer- Mastery Level 2
10 Thousand Sons- Rhino
10 Thousand Sons- Rhino
9 Thousand Sons- Rhino
Heldrake
5 Havocs- Plasma Gun x4, Rhino
Herald of Tz- Disc, Level 3, Grimoire
10 Horrors
9 Screamers

As you can see, I have no points for Melta Bombs but every single unit is as bare-bones as it can be while being effective. The screamers are my only real anti-tank, so I just need to watch out for Dreadnoughts. I am thinking of dropping the Sorcerer and a unit of Sons to try and get a 2nd Heldrake and 5 Spawn with MoN. I'd have 10pts to spare, so I could give my 2 Mounted Tsons squads Melta Bombs, or a Combi-Plasma for the Havoc champ.

But Pred and Oblits would also be able to hold objectives in Big Guns and you would have the choice of DSing the Oblits in to use the Multi-Melta or plasma option. I still think Ahriman is better served in a TSon squad, for the simple reason that they need him more and are troops all the time.

As for powers on Ahriman , you need to choose what roll he has in your list, and that is the choice of powers you should take. Is he going to dual and fight in CC? Then Biomancy is the better choice. Is he going to focus on buffs and odd malidictions, Telepathy is probably best then. Are you looking at shooty powers to give your unit options that AP 3 bolters don't give you? Tzeentch and or Pyromancy are your best choices. You don't want to dabble, specially when the other powers are d6 powers vs the chaos d3 powers. Put all of your rolls into one to give you the best chance to get what you want to get.

As for Terminators I will point out that Ahriman can't DS in with them. So a second HQ, like a Terminator Lord, would make the Terminators that much more effective AND Fearless. As for size, you have two options when your making your list. Take your other Units and whatever is left goes into the Terminators or take the Terminators first and spend the points you want on them giving yourself a self-imposed point cap (say 400pts). As for size, the key numbers are 3-5-10. Do you want two heavy weapons, one or none? I think for you I would go 5 Terminators and use a Heavy Flamer and then maybe 2 Combi-Meltas. I would also look at upgrading a PW to a Chainfist or two (put one on the Heavy Flamer). Then if you make a Lord with a CF/LC, your Terminator champ can just keep the power maul for scrub challenges and pack a combi-melta for a total of 233pts. Will give your Terminators a broad range of units they can effect.

5x Terminators - 233pts
MoT, Heavy Flamer, 2x ChainFists, 2x Combi-Meltas, Champ with Combi-Melta

Lord - 157
Terminator Armor, CF, MoT, LC, VotLW

390pts

Thanks everyone, I I've learnt quite a bit and you have given me a lot to consider.

I've put together a 1500 point list without daemon allies as an ultimate goal for my army, but I'm not sure if 2 10-man TS squads are enough so maybe I need to drop a thing or two to get another one?

Ahriman
10-man Thousand Sons in Rhino
10-man Thousand Sons in Rhino
5 MoT Terminators with VotLW - 2 Chainfists, 4 Combi-meltas, Heavy Flamer, (Power Axes or Power Swords?)
5 Havocs in Rhino - 4 Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
2 Predators - AC/2LC
=1496 points

at 2000 points I'd probably add a ML3 sorcerer or a terminator lord and a third 10-man TS squad in a rhino
Maybe I'll get some daemons later on as well so I can mix it up a bit.

9-man squads of Sons is more fluffy (Tzeentch's number is 9) and also gives you room for an IC to ride with them. In those cases, it lets you maximize the Rhino's top hatch, with the unit's sorceror and the IC sorceror both being able to cast out of it.

It also saves you a few points while only costing you a couple of bolter shots, since running them at 10 doesn't unlock anything as with standard CSM units.

Brometheus is a sort of TS authority on the forums so I'd like to mirror what he said but also add to it.

The truth is, Thousand Sons can't take that much fire and even high AP shooting/cc will knock them out as you can only get so lucky with a 4++. Even worse, the Tzeench powers on the sorcerers are pretty awful...

Still, there are times when you get that glorious volley of AP3 bolters and wipe out a valuable Meq unit or something similar.

My advice regarding TS is to take enough of them to be effective (2-4 units) and then take enough other things to distract and keep your opponent's attention off of the Thousand Sons.

For me, this includes Demon allies which contain Screamers; Helldrakes; Obliterators and even a largish unit of Terminators. Consequently, infiltrating a unit of Terminators in a Land Raider is pretty fun thank's to Ahriman's trait!

The Telepathy powers are my favorite ones to roll for, Invisibility is great for buffing Screamers or anything else as really, the reduction to WS1 in combat is a Godsend! Hallucination can also be fun to throw around if you have it =).


Furthermore, I agree that Melta Bombs are nice upgrades to have and I generally take Force Axes on my TS sorcerers-the AP2 is nice even if you go last.

To be honest, there are some games when my Rubricae simply don't have to make saves until late-game because the Demons are such high threat. That means more Ap3 bolters firing. I would recommend Demon allies, but I don't think they're required at 1500.

At 1500pts, that list is about as good as it gets without allies. We're looking at barebones units and the Predators are taken in pairs in case of Sternguard or DSing Tactical Marines with Meltas. The Predators will not disappoint. The Terminators probably need Power Axes. Enfeeble is hilarious with Power Axes, and will make you smile when you get it one day because you didn't pay the points for Fists.

The list takes full advantage of Ahriman's Warlord Trait.

At 2000, I would almost go so far as to say that a Heldrake is required along with the 3rd Tsons squad.

(Oh, and thanks dude.)

Would it ever be better to have Daemons as primary and CSM as the allied force (basically just Ahriman & two TSONS squads)?

No, because only the promary detachment would unlock rains as troops so if CSM are allies, Tson would be troops.

However, there are rumors of a "book of tzeench" and/or Tsons supplement coming out next year so that might give more flexibility in terms of demons+ts forces.

^ There it is.

We will have to see what comes out next year.

Ive always liked for tzeench:

Ahriman (infiltrating with) 10 Possessed MoT

Herald of Tz with grimoire hitting the above. Pretty decent deathstar with a 2++. Does test the luck of the gods...

Support with oblits, termies, spawn, 1ksons (in rhino), screamers, bloob of horrors, bm deamonprince, cheap cc lord (even huron?) or anything really. Ahriman takes biomancy to beastmode melee.

 Raezazel wrote:
Thanks everyone, I I've learnt quite a bit and you have given me a lot to consider.

I've put together a 1500 point list without daemon allies as an ultimate goal for my army, but I'm not sure if 2 10-man TS squads are enough so maybe I need to drop a thing or two to get another one?

Ahriman
10-man Thousand Sons in Rhino
10-man Thousand Sons in Rhino
5 MoT Terminators with VotLW - 2 Chainfists, 4 Combi-meltas, Heavy Flamer, (Power Axes or Power Swords?)
5 Havocs in Rhino - 4 Plasma Guns, Plasma Pistol
2 Predators - AC/2LC
=1496 points

at 2000 points I'd probably add a ML3 sorcerer or a terminator lord and a third 10-man TS squad in a rhino
Maybe I'll get some daemons later on as well so I can mix it up a bit.

I agree with the skimming the TSons down to 9, as those two figs, plus your excess points would give you 50pts to play with. That would give all of your champs (Havoc and TSons) Melta bombs (15pts) and all 3 of your Rhinos combi-Meltas (30pts). If you switch out the Havoc Champ from a Plasma Pistol to a Combi-Plasma, you would free up 5pts and be able to give your havoc squad MoT for 10pts, bring your list up to 1500pts on the nose.

For your Terminators, go power axes or power mauls. It depends on you the player and your play style. Your choice is hit them with a bunch of attacks at Str 6 (which Insta Kills T3) on Init 4 and see if they fail armor saves (if they get any) or ignore their armor for sure but swing last at Str 5 and hope you don't fail /your/ armor saves before you get your attacks off. That being said, you do have 2+/4++ saves. You have a very good chance to survive till Init 1 against anything they throw against you, as well as other Init 1 weapons that ignore your armor (50/50 chance). Your choice, but I feel those are your best choices to choose from. The Power Sword on Terminators is really worthless because your not getting +1 attack from two CC weapons anyway. You might as well go Lightning Claw at that point to get Shred. Also, you want a couple of plain guys your not spending any points on to soak up wounds, so it doesn't pay to kit all your terminators out, specially if your DSing in and taking a full Turn of shooting before you go again. That is the beauty of Combi weapons, because you can come in, fire them and not feel like you wasted them because you at least got to use them. If you lose them to return fire, it doesn't matter as much.

Remember the Rhino can fire on it's own target, so if it is a transport, the Rhino can pop it and your troops can then fire on the troops inside. It also means if you do happen to go against a Land Raider or some other AV 14 vehicle, you have options in ranged combat and in melee to deal with it (thick of them as back-ups to the Preds). Also the Melta bomb gives you an option in combat with a MC or walker. It is to cheap to not take it and trust me, you will wish you had if you get in those situations. I am dropping the plasma pistol for more than just the 5pts, I am also suggesting it because of it's short range and the fact that is doesn't have rapid fire, so it is still a single shot. I feel the combi will give you that round of disembarking from your rhino and laying into a enemy unit with 10 plasma shots (the combi Rapid Fires) all at the same range (thus range synergy). After that point, bolter has the same synergy as the plasma guns and while your in the Rhino, the normal plasma guns can fire (two people in the Rhino can fire out of it due to two hatches) or Ahriman and a plasma can shoot out of it.

If you do upgrade your list to a higher point level, I will suggest Warpflame Gargoyles for your preds (maybe even Rhinos), Havoc Launchers (the rhinos can have these as well), and a Icon of Flame on your Havoks. Don't dismiss the Soul Blaze free damage. In fact, rock it. Havoc launchers against hoards with Soul Blaze adds up. Every weapon having Soul Blaze adds up. 25pts puts Warpflame Gargoyles on five vehicles, 60pts puts havoc launchers on five vehicles. Yeah, Rhinos are not that hard to take out, but rhinos being able to fire a weapon at 48" (Str 5, AP 5, heavy 1, blast, TLed) is a heck of a option for cheap. It all depends if you want to rush your rhinos or move 6" and fire... and now you have another option if it is objectives and you want to sit back and camp. I honestly feel the upgraded vehicle weapons are one of the few strengths the Chaos Codex has over the Vanilla Codex.

As a side note, I doubled checked your list, and it is actually 1498pts. The difference is that you made a mistake on your Terminators. The Chaos Terminators get Combi Weapons for 5pts each, but the Terminator Champion is not a Chaos Terminator, he is a Terminator Champion, thus he chooses and pays for all of his weapons from pg 91 from the Terminator Weapons list. His combi-melta is 7pts instead of 5pts. It is confusing, I know because you think all of your Terminators are Chaos Terminators and the Champ has these additional options like Gift of Mutation or the ability to have dual Chainfists. But it isn't an additional option because they named him different. Took me a bit to catch on as well, so no worries.