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Did DeathReaper just try to argue that, in face of a rule stating the doors are to be opened, he would still play such models with the doors closed?

And this is why I always discuss how DPs are going to work when my opponent runs them. If they want the doors to be ignored for everything including LOS through the model, that is fine. If they want to play TLOS, that's OK. If they want to treat the doors as hull then that means I can be a little bit further from the Pod and still wreck it.

JinxDragon wrote:
Did DeathReaper just try to argue that, in face of a rule stating the doors are to be opened, he would still play such models with the doors closed?

Not sure what you are saying here, what does this mean: " in face of a rule stating the doors are to be opened" please clarify.

To attempt to head off the argument, we've already had a ten page argument about this. The result is that there is a very opinionated divide over this issue, with nearly two thirds of respondents feeling that the drop pod doors should be treated as open even if they have been glued shut. The 28% who feel that the pods should be able to still block LOS completely when glued shut (or left up if magnetized) are still, however, a significant minority, so it's an issue that bears clarifying with your opponent beforehand if either you or he play pods.

How would people feel if I was in a situation where I had a storm talon behind a storm raven, and with the raven in this position the talon does not have any LoS to lets say a helldrake. At the start of the shooting phase I reach over and open the front and rear hatch of the storm raven and now the Talon as true line of sight to 90% of the helldrake. Would the helldrake get a cover save, would the talon be allowed to fire at all?

 DJGietzen wrote:
How would people feel if I was in a situation where I had a storm talon behind a storm raven, and with the raven in this position the talon does not have any LoS to lets say a helldrake. At the start of the shooting phase I reach over and open the front and rear hatch of the storm raven and now the Talon as true line of sight to 90% of the helldrake. Would the helldrake get a cover save, would the talon be allowed to fire at all?

Well first, I would frown upon this as you are altering a model mid game. Now if the hatches had been open since the beginning of the game, that'd be different.

Anyway, since the Helldrake is not 25% obscured, it would not get a cover save.

Edited: Forgot Heldrake was a vehicle.

DeathReaper,

Back on page one where someone pointed out the Lucius pattern Drop Pods have a rule forcing the doors to be opened to their fullest extent. I might not be quoting, but your reply was that if the doors are glued then the full extent is 'closed.' It seems you are arguing that you would still play with closed door drop pods even when faced with such rules, even going as far as to alter the clear design of the model so the rule would no longer effect it.

JinxDragon wrote:
DeathReaper,

Back on page one where someone pointed out the Lucius pattern Drop Pods have a rule forcing the doors to be opened to their fullest extent. I might not be quoting, but your reply was that if the doors are glued then the full extent is 'closed.' It seems you are arguing that you would still play with closed door drop pods even when faced with such rules, even going as far as to alter the clear design of the model so the rule would no longer effect it.

Well considering the rule is:

"Note: As soon as a Drop Pod is deployed, its doors are automatically opened to their full extent." (IA: Apoc book)

If the full extent of the doors is 0 degrees open because of the way the model is assembled, then the rule has been followed 100%

I play by True Line of Sight. If the doors are closed and are required to be "opened to their full extent." and that full extent is not able to be opened because of the model assembly, then yes I will follow the rules and no models would be able to trace Line of Sight through something opaque such as drop pod doors.

 DJGietzen wrote:
At the start of the shooting phase I reach over and open the front and rear hatch of the storm raven...

There is no rule that would allow you to do this.

 DeathReaper wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
DeathReaper,

Back on page one where someone pointed out the Lucius pattern Drop Pods have a rule forcing the doors to be opened to their fullest extent. I might not be quoting, but your reply was that if the doors are glued then the full extent is 'closed.' It seems you are arguing that you would still play with closed door drop pods even when faced with such rules, even going as far as to alter the clear design of the model so the rule would no longer effect it.

Well considering the rule is:

"Note: As soon as a Drop Pod is deployed, its doors are automatically opened to their full extent." (IA: Apoc book)

If the full extent of the doors is 0 degrees open because of the way the model is assembled, then the rule has been followed 100%

I play by True Line of Sight. If the doors are closed and are required to be "opened to their full extent." and that full extent is not able to be opened because of the model assembly, then yes I will follow the rules and no models would be able to trace Line of Sight through something opaque such as drop pod doors.

I actually have the instructions for my Lucius Pod still. One line of the instructions say "Do not glue the doors shut". That's exact, including the underline.

Though I think the rules are ambiguous in regards to if you have to assemble the pod with the doors moveable, or not. The instructions only list for assembly with moving doors though.

There isnt multiple rules for one model depending how its modeled.

For arguement sake if we went by :

 DeathReaper wrote:

If the full extent of the doors is 0 degrees open because of the way the model is assembled, then the rule has been followed 100%

I play by True Line of Sight. If the doors are closed and are required to be "opened to their full extent." and that full extent is not able to be opened because of the model assembly, then yes I will follow the rules and no models would be able to trace Line of Sight through something opaque such as drop pod doors.

So if you cant open the doors your models cant get out.

Also i dont know if you play at tournaments but if a TO rules one way you follow it theres no if and or buts.

 Nettik189 wrote:
There isnt multiple rules for one model depending how its modeled.

No, there isn't.

There is however, a difference in the way models function depending on how they are built. A kneeling marine has different LOS to a standing one, despite supposedly being the same thing. A Battle Wagon blocks LOS differently depending on where you choose to put the turrets. Likewise, a Drop Pod with doors closed blocks LOS to a Pod with the doors open.

So if you cant open the doors your models cant get out.

There is no requirement in the rules to physically open a transport vehicle's doors in order for the models to disembark.

 insaniak wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
At the start of the shooting phase I reach over and open the front and rear hatch of the storm raven...

There is no rule that would allow you to do this.

Thats my point, there is no rule to allow you to open the doors on a drop pod either. "The hatches are blown" does not necessarily mean open the doors on the model. In fact it can only mean its occupants must disembark immediately and may not embark again.

Opeing the doors ona model to get better line of sight is not permissible in this rule set, even if the doors are designed to be open.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Nettik189 wrote:

So if you cant open the doors your models cant get out.

There is no requirement in the rules to physically open a transport vehicle's doors in order for the models to disembark.

In fact the access point and open topped rules guarantee you don't need the doors open to get out.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Thats my point, there is no rule to allow you to open the doors on a drop pod either. "The hatches are blown" does not necessarily mean open the doors on the model. In fact it can only mean its occupants must disembark immediately and may not embark again.

Opeing the doors ona model to get better line of sight is not permissible in this rule set, even if the doors are designed to be open.

That's not really the issue though. The rules don't allow you to open the doors during the game. There is no problem with building your pod, or your Storm Raven, or your Land Raider, or whatever, with the doors open. Or closed... whichever floats your boat..

I still want to see a Drop Pod modelled where the doors actually blow open...
The challenge has been laid down Gentlemen.
The winner gets these 5 smiley Ork emoticons

 Bulldogging wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
DeathReaper,

Back on page one where someone pointed out the Lucius pattern Drop Pods have a rule forcing the doors to be opened to their fullest extent. I might not be quoting, but your reply was that if the doors are glued then the full extent is 'closed.' It seems you are arguing that you would still play with closed door drop pods even when faced with such rules, even going as far as to alter the clear design of the model so the rule would no longer effect it.

Well considering the rule is:

"Note: As soon as a Drop Pod is deployed, its doors are automatically opened to their full extent." (IA: Apoc book)

If the full extent of the doors is 0 degrees open because of the way the model is assembled, then the rule has been followed 100%

I play by True Line of Sight. If the doors are closed and are required to be "opened to their full extent." and that full extent is not able to be opened because of the model assembly, then yes I will follow the rules and no models would be able to trace Line of Sight through something opaque such as drop pod doors.

I actually have the instructions for my Lucius Pod still. One line of the instructions say "Do not glue the doors shut". That's exact, including the underline.

Though I think the rules are ambiguous in regards to if you have to assemble the pod with the doors moveable, or not. The instructions only list for assembly with moving doors though.

and what page of the BRB says that, or is it in the codex?

 grendel083 wrote:
I still want to see a Drop Pod modelled where the doors actually blow open...

Except it says the Hatches are blown. It does not say blown open...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Bulldogging wrote:
I actually have the instructions for my Lucius Pod still. One line of the instructions say "Do not glue the doors shut". That's exact, including the underline.

Though I think the rules are ambiguous in regards to if you have to assemble the pod with the doors moveable, or not. The instructions only list for assembly with moving doors though.

and what page of the BRB says that, or is it in the codex?

Third line under ASSEMBLY at 30 seconds from the instructions that ship with the model.

Of note to this discussion is another poll from the past. It is worth noting that 72% of poll respondents felt that assembly instructions were not binding game rules.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Of note to this discussion is another poll from the past. It is worth noting that 72% of poll respondents felt that assembly instructions were not binding game rules.

In most cases, I would agree, especially for an Ork Wartrukk. However, when the instructions explicitly forbid you from doing so, and the rules accompanying the model hinge on it, they should be relevant.

 grendel083 wrote:
When dealing with drop pods you really need to set up some house rules.
They're just too messy otherwise.

There is nothing messy about the drop pod rules at all, unless you are trying to infer rules from some of the fluff written in the drop pod entry. Model embark and disembark from a drop pod just like they do from any other vehicle or building, from one of the doors/hatches. The doors/hatches do not need to open or close on the model, and no precedence for forcing a player to open doors on their model exists. This is a case of some people mistaking fluff for rules and running with it.

The most important thing to remember is the most simple. This edition uses true line of sight to determine if one unit can see/target another. If a land raider was modeled with open doors to show off the inside of the model then line of sight could be drawn through those doors. If a drop pod is modelled with open doors then line of sight can be drawn through it. The only real difference for the drop pod is that it's weapon system is inside the vehicle, meaning that it can not draw line of sight if the doors are closed.

I will point out another instance of where fluff cannot be used to rules.

My Necron Doom Scythes state in the fluff text for the death ray that its basically turret mounted(dont have the book on me as im at work) but in the terms of the game and the rules, its not a turrent and therfor only gets a front fire arc on it.

Due to this I will say that the doors do not have to be blown open, surely the models inside would be able to choose which door they go out of? leaving some closed to gain extra cover? To me that seems perfectly legitimate and fluff wise makes more sense then all the doors blowing open. If you look at the centre console of a drop pod(i know only the infantry ones) there is alot of buttons on there for the commander and I believe he would be able to choose which ones open.

So using the example of the Necron Doom Scythe, id say you have a TLOS and if not all the doors are open, then he cant get a bead on you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What the man above me said too!

 augustus5 wrote:
The only real difference for the drop pod is that it's weapon system is inside the vehicle, meaning that it can not draw line of sight if the doors are closed.

Doesn't that seem like a clear indication of intent? Namely, the intent for the drop pod doors to be played in the open position?

 Saltis wrote:
I will point out another instance of where fluff cannot be used to rules.

My Necron Doom Scythes state in the fluff text for the death ray that its basically turret mounted(dont have the book on me as im at work) but in the terms of the game and the rules, its not a turrent and therfor only gets a front fire arc on it.

Due to this I will say that the doors do not have to be blown open, surely the models inside would be able to choose which door they go out of? leaving some closed to gain extra cover? To me that seems perfectly legitimate and fluff wise makes more sense then all the doors blowing open. If you look at the centre console of a drop pod(i know only the infantry ones) there is alot of buttons on there for the commander and I believe he would be able to choose which ones open.

So using the example of the Necron Doom Scythe, id say you have a TLOS and if not all the doors are open, then he cant get a bead on you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What the man above me said too!

The reason why this question has not died long ago and is still debated, is because while the term "The hatches are blown" is very fluffy, it is sitting in the middle of rules. If it said that in the fluff section, this would have been put to rest already. Since it is in the rules section, but asking us to do something we can't just seems confusing if viewed by pure RAW (unless we are required to literally blow the hatches, thus we need small solenoids to pop the hatches off.)

This is why the Forgeworld Lucius Pattern Drop Pod is worded to say the doors need to be completely opened to their full extent and their instructions say they can not be glued.

On that note, has anyone here purchased the new Space Marine 6e Codex?

If you have, please look at the Drop Pod section and inform us if the rules for Drop Pods have changed.

 Nilok wrote:

 Saltis wrote:
I will point out another instance of where fluff cannot be used to rules.

My Necron Doom Scythes state in the fluff text for the death ray that its basically turret mounted(dont have the book on me as im at work) but in the terms of the game and the rules, its not a turrent and therfor only gets a front fire arc on it.

Due to this I will say that the doors do not have to be blown open, surely the models inside would be able to choose which door they go out of? leaving some closed to gain extra cover? To me that seems perfectly legitimate and fluff wise makes more sense then all the doors blowing open. If you look at the centre console of a drop pod(i know only the infantry ones) there is alot of buttons on there for the commander and I believe he would be able to choose which ones open.

So using the example of the Necron Doom Scythe, id say you have a TLOS and if not all the doors are open, then he cant get a bead on you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What the man above me said too!

The reason why this question has not died long ago and is still debated, is because while the term "The hatches are blown" is very fluffy, it is sitting in the middle of rules. If it said that in the fluff section, this would have been put to rest already. Since it is in the rules section, but asking us to do something we can't just seems confusing if viewed by pure RAW (unless we are required to literally blow the hatches, thus we need small solenoids to pop the hatches off.)

This is why the Forgeworld Lucius Pattern Drop Pod is worded to say the doors need to be completely opened to their full extent and their instructions say they can not be glued.

On that note, has anyone here purchased the new Space Marine 6e Codex?

If you have, please look at the Drop Pod section and inform us if the rules for Drop Pods have changed.

Not really. It does mention you don't lose a hull point for the immobilised result. Only relevant is;

blah blah capacity is this. once the drop pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must disembark. blah blah can not re-embark.

 Nilok wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
and what page of the BRB says that, or is it in the codex?

Third line under ASSEMBLY at 30 seconds from the instructions that ship with the model.

That is not a codex or the BRB...

 Nilok wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Of note to this discussion is another poll from the past. It is worth noting that 72% of poll respondents felt that assembly instructions were not binding game rules.

In most cases, I would agree, especially for an Ork Wartrukk. However, when the instructions explicitly forbid you from doing so, and the rules accompanying the model hinge on it, they should be relevant.

The instructions that come with a model are not rules.

Besides you do not have to glue them shut to keep them closed, you can paint them shut/use rubber cement/use actual cement/use putty and achieve the same effect. So even if the FW instructions are meant to be rules (And nothing says they are) then they do not restrict you form doing any of these other things...

 insaniak wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Thats my point, there is no rule to allow you to open the doors on a drop pod either. "The hatches are blown" does not necessarily mean open the doors on the model. In fact it can only mean its occupants must disembark immediately and may not embark again.

Opeing the doors ona model to get better line of sight is not permissible in this rule set, even if the doors are designed to be open.

That's not really the issue though. The rules don't allow you to open the doors during the game. There is no problem with building your pod, or your Storm Raven, or your Land Raider, or whatever, with the doors open. Or closed... whichever floats your boat..

Its exactly the issue. When you put the drop pod in reserves with the doors closed you don't have permission to open them when the model hits the table. All this talk about creating an advantage by gluing the doors shut and not allowing for presumed line of sight and no one seems to realize that opening the doors would in fact be a house rule.

You have no more permission to open the doors on a drop pod mid game then you do on a storm raven. Once you presume the doors can open and close whats to prevent the doors from opening and closing as the controlling player sees fit?

(Again, this is a pure RAW argument)

Regarding the video about DP assembly. It says "To assemble the model with moving doors..."

In other words if you glue the doors shut you are assembling the model without moving doors.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Its exactly the issue. When you put the drop pod in reserves with the doors closed you don't have permission to open them when the model hits the table

Sorry, but that is ridiculous. It's like arguing that if your dreadnought is stored in your case with the arms separate, you can't put them on when you want to use it.

Whether or not the doors are open when the model in reserves makes absolutely no difference. Once the model is actually put in play there is no permission to alter it, but there is no rule that deals with what a model looks like before it is actually in use.

(Again, this is a pure RAW argument)

No, it isn't. There is absolutely zero basis in written rules in that argument.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 augustus5 wrote:
The only real difference for the drop pod is that it's weapon system is inside the vehicle, meaning that it can not draw line of sight if the doors are closed.

Doesn't that seem like a clear indication of intent? Namely, the intent for the drop pod doors to be played in the open position?

I think there is a clear intent. The weapon is mounted inside the vehicle, it is clearly meant to be fired. The problem is that, unlike 4th edition, which included rules that helped dictate LOS, 6th edition uses very strict true LOS. If you can not draw LOS on the table, you can not target a unit. There are no rules about how to interpret seeing through a model or obstruction.

I would not have any problems playing in a tournament or with a group of gamers that house-ruled pods and said that they are invisible for the purposes of drawing LOS. But if it is not discussed before a game starts, and at some point a dispute comes up, I would feel like siding with the RAW interpretation of true LOS.

So let me get this straight. I can arm my DP with a deathwind launcher, and position it so that when it lands, I can open the 2 doors that would block the DW launchers LOS, but I can leave the other 3 doors closed so that my disembarking unit is blocked from your LOS.

Where is the disadvantage here? This is strict modeling for advantage. My DW launcher can see your units while you cannot see my disembarked unit.

Now if MFA is not a rule, can I bring a single drop pod made from 5 drop pods all glued together to form a giant pod?

Or how about a single pod made by gluing 5 pods in a line, with 3 doors a piece to block LOS, while using the rest of the doors to extend this line? Can I make the line big enough to block off your entire deployment zone, or my own deployment zone?

Seems like a sound tactic. Take a giant wall DP and a bunch of jump troops. Your opponent cannot contest your objectives, meanwhile you can have your jump troops leap over the wall on turn 5 to contest all of theirs. Shake hands, Good Game, you win the tourney.