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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 12:44:29
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Macclesfield, UK
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insaniak wrote: DarthOvious wrote:I don't like this argument at all. The argument that says that in order to know intent we must talk to original creator/designer. Its a non-sequitur, there are many things we can determine the intention of or design of without having to talk to those originally involved.
Can we? How? We can look at a rule and determine what it says. But how do we know, without talking to the original writer, that what made it onto the page is what he actually intended?
As an example... A rapid fire weapon fires 2 shots at half range. We know that the rules say this... but we have absolutely no way of knowing that the writer intended for this to be the case. He might have meant for them to fire 3 shots, but made a typo that wasn't caught until it was too late. We can assume that he write what he meant, but we have no way of proving it.
As a result, when most people say ' RAI' what hey actually mean, whether they realiase it or not, is actually 'RAITTM'... or 'Rules As I Think They Meant'...
The RAI waters are muddied even further by the way GW resolves rules issues. While they will sometimes rule in favour of what they originally wanted, there have been plenty of cases where they have gone with RAW instead in order to cause less confusion, even though that results in something working differently to how they originally intended.
So the end result is that even if we do decide that we are absolutely, unequivocably certain about the RAI on an unclear rule, that still doesn't tell us how the game is actually, right now, 'supposed' to be played.
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Archaeologists dig things up all the time and can easily identify function/intention. They don't have to actually talk to those involved in order to find out. They know that Aztecs used to sacrifice humans on alters to appease the sun god. They didn't actually have to talk to the Aztecs in order to find that out. They used logic, evidence and common sense to come to that conclusion.
They came to a conclusion that fits the evidence. That doesn't mean that they were correct. However well informed they think they are, they're still ultimately just guessing.
The guns are supposed to be glued inside the drop pod and how do they shot out if the doors are closed.
They don't.
Just as they don't shoot if the player chooses to deploy the pod behind tall terrain that completely blocks LOS to the rest of the battlefield.
Thanks for the clarrification. I don't really want to get involved any more than this. I think we just have a different way of seeing what type of confidence we have in some things.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 15:07:51
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Regular Dakkanaut
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insaniak wrote:The RAI waters are muddied even further by the way GW resolves rules issues. While they will sometimes rule in favour of what they originally wanted, there have been plenty of cases where they have gone with RAW instead in order to cause less confusion, even though that results in something working differently to how they originally intended.
Sometimes, even GW doesn't know what they want/intended and flip-flop on the rules. Such as Shadow in the Warp affecting things in boxes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 15:56:30
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Krazed Killa Kan
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If this stems from "problems" with the model, I can understand. It should be FAQd for sure. But briefly here's a tutorial on my drop pod WIP project for my Salamanders. I feel your pain (at a 2+), but I think it's from how precisely the model's pieces fit together rather than a real lack of quality. Can't believe I'm defending GW but there it is... Hah!
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/560917.page
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 16:04:29
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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I am of the solid opinion that the people answering the Frequently Asked Questions don't even talk to the writers, editors or anyone else 'in the know' before they pen said answers....
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8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 17:31:48
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Eihnlazer wrote:RAW: if your doors are glued shut, you cant see through a pod. [ TLOS is all that matters]
RAI and the only way to play it without being an ass: Pod does not block line of sight, and only provides a 5+ cover to units behind it.
I have to agree with this person. No, I don't mean everyone who plays it the other way is an ass, but the other way is the only way that allows abuse. If I wanted to Model For Advantage, then clearly I would love it if drop pod doors could block LOS depending on how I deploy the pod. Hey, I want a complete LOS blocker? Leave all the doors up. I don't want to block LOS at all? Put all the doors down. Or maybe 3 up and 2 down would serve my purposes best. NO OTHER MODEL in the game allows this type of customization at deployment.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/01 17:36:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 17:32:50
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Repentia Mistress
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WSYIWYG how does the Dread come out if the door can't open?
5+ cover is how it's played, anyone stating overwise is a joker.
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hey what time is it?
"Try looking on page 12 of the FAQ."
-Ghaz |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 17:32:54
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Morphing Obliterator
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I don't understand why you can't leave some doors closed...
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See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 17:35:29
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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There's nothing to understand, the rules here are lacking to the extreme. I just find it lame and pretty distasteful that a model representing a vehicle that is supposed to fall from the sky and dump troops out can be deployed in so many different configurations depending on the circumstances to advantage the player who was smart enough to magnetize the doors.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 17:35:41
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Aijec wrote:WSYIWYG how does the Dread come out if the door can't open?
How do tac marines disembark from a rhino, if the door cannot open?
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 17:43:17
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Repentia Mistress
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Happyjew wrote:Aijec wrote:WSYIWYG how does the Dread come out if the door can't open?
How do tac marines disembark from a rhino, if the door cannot open?
They shouldn't, but this is a game and I would gladly give my opponent that benefit because it doesn't change the gameplay in any way imaginable.
This is the same situation only the DP controlling player is trying to take advantage of my compliance and abuse it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/01 17:43:48
hey what time is it?
"Try looking on page 12 of the FAQ."
-Ghaz |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 17:43:19
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Morphing Obliterator
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Happyjew wrote:Aijec wrote:WSYIWYG how does the Dread come out if the door can't open?
How do tac marines disembark from a rhino, if the door cannot open?
I have pointed this out before to someone who complained about me MFA.
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See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 17:45:23
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Aijec wrote: Happyjew wrote:Aijec wrote:WSYIWYG how does the Dread come out if the door can't open?
How do tac marines disembark from a rhino, if the door cannot open?
They shouldn't, but this is a game and I would gladly give my opponent that benefit because it doesn't change the gameplay in any way imaginable.
This is the same situation only the DP controlling player is trying to take advantage of my compliance and abuse it.
So you'll let Tac marines out of a Rhino with a glued door, but not out of a DP?
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 17:50:53
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Repentia Mistress
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Happyjew wrote:Aijec wrote: Happyjew wrote:Aijec wrote:WSYIWYG how does the Dread come out if the door can't open?
How do tac marines disembark from a rhino, if the door cannot open?
They shouldn't, but this is a game and I would gladly give my opponent that benefit because it doesn't change the gameplay in any way imaginable.
This is the same situation only the DP controlling player is trying to take advantage of my compliance and abuse it.
So you'll let Tac marines out of a Rhino with a glued door, but not out of a DP?
I'll always allow players to use their transports or whatever they have glued, I have no choice and neither do they. DP passengers must disembark.
I'll also always point out that the door's are blown and this will prevent any kind of abusive LOS gimmicks.
The difference is the weight of strategic importance, one blocks LOS which is a big deal, now his Dread charges and I have no option but to take it. (in this particular case)
The rhino's doors opening will never block LOS.
Keep in mind this is both ways, I play with a friend often who (for whatever reason) doesn't have bases on his Hammerheads and just sits them on the ground, they are hovering and do not block LOS completely but that isn't represented in the game because we are humans with limited budgets.
I love pointing that out to opponents and giving them the option to shoot under the tank if possible.
Do you disagree?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/01 17:53:43
hey what time is it?
"Try looking on page 12 of the FAQ."
-Ghaz |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 17:51:30
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Krazed Killa Kan
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The FAQ should clarify the following:
When a drop pod is deployed on the table, are all doors considered to be open for purposes of disembarkation and line-of-sight?
----------------(Yes or No)
Can a player elect to open one or more or none of the doors on a deployed drop pod in order to block line of sight?
----------------(Yes, a player can block LOS with closed doors, however it will effect how embarked models may disembark and it will affect LOS of any onboard weapon systems)
- - or - -
----------------(No, a drop pod's doors are all considered open. If the model or terrian does not allow this a cover save should be granted as when firing through an intervening unit (5+).
Do the doors on a deployed drop pod still count as part of the model for the purposes of disembarkation and minimal distance required for enemy models to stay away? That is, can an enemy can stand on a door and does disembarkation distance measurement start at the true drop pod pentagonal base, not the edge of the door?
-----------------(Yes or No)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/01 17:59:56
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 17:58:56
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Repentia Mistress
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I'd also like to point out that the picture of the FW Pod presented earlier in the thread is one of the few that blocks LOS while still blowing the doors.
"Note: As soon as a Drop Pod is deployed, its doors are automatically opened to their full extent."
Most other pods FW presents are similar to the regular SM pods or block a small amount more.
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hey what time is it?
"Try looking on page 12 of the FAQ."
-Ghaz |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 18:17:28
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Krazed Killa Kan
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The old codex seems to be pretty unequivocal on whether or not the doors stay open or closed. I don't have the new one with me at work, but yeah. Non issue.... hatches are open.
I'm curious if anyone has tried to use them as a mobile Aeigis that basically blocks assaults? If you have two pods land and the open doors touch each other. Does your opponent have to assault the pod before continue his or her movement/assault. That'd be a cool tactic. Making troops go around before they get to an objective... Do people already do this?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/01 19:02:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 19:59:41
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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doktor_g wrote:I'm curious if anyone has tried to use them as a mobile Aeigis that basically blocks assaults? If you have two pods land and the open doors touch each other. Does your opponent have to assault the pod before continue his or her movement/assault. That'd be a cool tactic. Making troops go around before they get to an objective... Do people already do this?
Yikes. I wouldn't call that cool myself.
Oh well, this is why my drop pod doors magically disintegrate upon impact lol, then I don't have to worry (or rather don't make my opponent worry) about such shenanigans.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/01 20:00:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 20:01:15
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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The Hive Mind
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doktor_g wrote:The old codex seems to be pretty unequivocal on whether or not the doors stay open or closed. I don't have the new one with me at work, but yeah. Non issue.... hatches are open.
I'm curious if anyone has tried to use them as a mobile Aeigis that basically blocks assaults? If you have two pods land and the open doors touch each other. Does your opponent have to assault the pod before continue his or her movement/assault. That'd be a cool tactic. Making troops go around before they get to an objective... Do people already do this?
That assumes you play the doors as part of the hull. That is almost universally not done and is pretty much a bad idea.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/01 20:08:14
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Aijec wrote:The difference is the weight of strategic importance, one blocks LOS which is a big deal, now his Dread charges and I have no option but to take it. (in this particular case)
If he has deployed a dreadnought behind a closed drop pod, it's not going to be too difficult for you to get out of charge range in the turn that he has to stand there before he can charge you, since his charge range is now reduced by (at minimum) the diameter of the pod.
doktor_g wrote:The old codex seems to be pretty unequivocal on whether or not the doors stay open or closed.
It wasn't. It had the same fluff comment about the hatches being blown, but ruleswise said nothing about having to open the doors on the model. And the pictures of the pod in the old codex were about 50/50 of pods with doors open and doors closed.
I'm curious if anyone has tried to use them as a mobile Aeigis that basically blocks assaults? If you have two pods land and the open doors touch each other. Does your opponent have to assault the pod before continue his or her movement/assault. That'd be a cool tactic. Making troops go around before they get to an objective... Do people already do this?
No. Most people ignore the open doors when measuring to the pod.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 01:35:30
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Krazed Killa Kan
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@insaniak: My post wasn't meant as a troll, but now I'm interested. Since I've never used a DP, does one disembark 3" from the edge of the hatch door, or 3" from the edge of the door threshold when you use them?
And I agree with the above, if that's not a customary drop pod tactic, I wouldn't use it.... I mean l like going "pew pew" more than winning... I play orks!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/02 01:45:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 03:08:28
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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Aijec wrote:WSYIWYG how does the Dread come out if the door can't open?
How do 20 Orks come out of a Battlewagon's wheel?
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Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 05:54:47
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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doktor_g wrote:@insaniak: My post wasn't meant as a troll, but now I'm interested. Since I've never used a DP, does one disembark 3" from the edge of the hatch door, or 3" from the edge of the door threshold when you use them?
And I agree with the above, if that's not a customary drop pod tactic, I wouldn't use it.... I mean l like going "pew pew" more than winning... I play orks!
Neither, models disembark up to 6 inches in open terrain, not up to 3 inches...
With that said, if you play the doors as hull then you measure from the doors. if not you measure from the "Fin" on the drop pod. It all depends on how you are playing the doors, but most people I have seen/heard play it that they ignore the doors for the purposes of disembarking and targeting.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 08:37:21
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Lesser Daemon of Chaos
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This again................. This is why they need to FAQ the drop pod section in the rules to read like the Horus heresy book one does. "all doors are opened to their full extent". would stop all of the cheesy drop pod uses in games, by the rule lawyers.
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Latest Blog Post: 7th edition first thoughts and pictures.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 09:13:02
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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cerbrus2 wrote:This again................. This is why they need to FAQ the drop pod section in the rules to read like the Horus heresy book one does. "all doors are opened to their full extent". would stop all of the cheesy drop pod uses in games, by the rule lawyers.
You know what else would be helpful?
If people stopped blaming the deficiencies in the rules on other players.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 09:16:22
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader
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Personally I treat drop pods like any other vehicle. There's no requirement for the doors to open, and if closed, it blocks LoS in the same way as anything else. This does of course mean that the gun inside can't fire. I'd also happily play with the doors open, but what I wouldn't do is force someone who's drop pod doors are glued shut to play as if they were fully open, as determining line of sight and cover becomes a matter of guesswork, something I try to avoid.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 09:25:13
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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DeathReaper wrote: doktor_g wrote:@insaniak: My post wasn't meant as a troll, but now I'm interested. Since I've never used a DP, does one disembark 3" from the edge of the hatch door, or 3" from the edge of the door threshold when you use them?
And I agree with the above, if that's not a customary drop pod tactic, I wouldn't use it.... I mean l like going "pew pew" more than winning... I play orks!
Neither, models disembark up to 6 inches in open terrain, not up to 3 inches...
With that said, if you play the doors as hull then you measure from the doors. if not you measure from the "Fin" on the drop pod. It all depends on how you are playing the doors, but most people I have seen/heard play it that they ignore the doors for the purposes of disembarking and targeting.
I've been playing that the unit cannot move out of base contact with drop pod because the deep strike rules say they cannot move after arriving. The forced disembark gives them permission to make a normal move but I don't see how a normal move for a model the arrived by deep strike can be anything but 0"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/02 13:29:43
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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DJGietzen wrote:I've been playing that the unit cannot move out of base contact with drop pod because the deep strike rules say they cannot move after arriving.
They can not move other than to disembark.
The movement out to 6" away from the vehicle is a part of the disembarking process.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/03 08:14:26
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Implacable Black Templar Initiate
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No, that is not at all Rules. That is fluff as there are no rules for having the "Hatches Blown"
In every 6th edition Codex I have read, a paragraph beginning with a bolded title and a colon (ex: Transport Capacity: ) has not one word of fluff written into it. Presumably, this means that every word in it is written rule.
Either 'hatches are blown' is intended as opening doors (not a huge leap of logic), or its the first time an editor has failed to maintain an established writing format (crunch only in said paragraphs).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/03 10:36:25
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Farseer Pef wrote:No, that is not at all Rules. That is fluff as there are no rules for having the "Hatches Blown"
In every 6th edition Codex I have read, a paragraph beginning with a bolded title and a colon (ex: Transport Capacity: ) has not one word of fluff written into it. Presumably, this means that every word in it is written rule.
Either 'hatches are blown' is intended as opening doors (not a huge leap of logic), or its the first time an editor has failed to maintain an established writing format (crunch only in said paragraphs).
Check out page 81 and the Crash and Burn entry. The 1st sentence is "If a Zooming Flyer is Wrecked or Explodes, its flaming debris rains down onto the battlefield." If I treat every word in it is written rule am I to take it Games Workshop wants me to smash my model, light it on fire and scatter it over the table?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/03 10:59:08
Subject: Drop Pod Line of Sight
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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DJGietzen wrote:Farseer Pef wrote:No, that is not at all Rules. That is fluff as there are no rules for having the "Hatches Blown"
In every 6th edition Codex I have read, a paragraph beginning with a bolded title and a colon (ex: Transport Capacity: ) has not one word of fluff written into it. Presumably, this means that every word in it is written rule.
Either 'hatches are blown' is intended as opening doors (not a huge leap of logic), or its the first time an editor has failed to maintain an established writing format (crunch only in said paragraphs).
Check out page 81 and the Crash and Burn entry. The 1st sentence is "If a Zooming Flyer is Wrecked or Explodes, its flaming debris rains down onto the battlefield." If I treat every word in it is written rule am I to take it Games Workshop wants me to smash my model, light it on fire and scatter it over the table?
Which would force you to buy a new model and paint for it, thus giving more money to GW. Are we sure this isn't what GW intended? At least their marketing wished it was.
Anyway, he specified Codex, not the BRB. I still need to read through my Codex to check this.
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