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Marines interest me more for the 30k/HH side, but I figure a 30k Sallies force can be easily adapted to standard C:SM if the need arises.

However, the basic tactical squad isn't exactly a wellspring of durability, firepower, or stunning movement. Its kinda okay at all those things, though the current Eldar/Tau make armour count for less. The rhino is nothing special, but at least cheap enough that its not a worry in a list, though is easy for first blood.

Now, there's not a whole lot that can be done to either of those aspects of a tac squad without seriously changing a number of other factors, so instead I'll focus on the firepower aspect.

The special/heavy loadout always made me scratch my head. Combat squads helps this as you can buy a 10-man squad with a razor, and run 5 with the special in the razor and 5 with the heavy at home. But any other way of running them means you're not shooting one of your weapons to full effectiveness. Snap shots help a little, but hoping for a 6 isn't a great use of a lascannon. Split fire would be interesting for a stationary squad so at least you can shoot the lascannon or what have you at a tank and bolters at the gribblies.

Going back to HH, there's a piece of wargear called a suspensor web. It can be taken in a few squads that can take heavy weapons, and it turns heavy weapons into assault weapons with half the range if the model moved. Basically, a heavy bolter with the web would be either stationary Heavy 3 R36", or moving Assault 3 R18". The wargear doesn't have an explicit cost, but it can roughly inferred as being 10pts plus the cost of the weapon.

Now, you can take a tac squad with plasma and plasma cannon and shoot it at 18", or do melta/multi-melta which would in effect make it a double melta. Heavy bolter would go well with the flamer, and so on. This gives tac squads some genuinely decent shooting at the ranges their bolters generally operate at, while retaining the versatility of being able to stand and shoot further as required. All for an extra 10pts, which keeps them reasonable and far from overpowered.

Oh, and for the love of all that is Salamander, give tac squads the heavy flamer.

TL;DR
Pay 10pts for your heavy weapon dude to move and shoot at half range, and give tac squads the heavy flamer option.

You might notice that terminators have 3 heavy weapons choices that no other SM troop can, heavy flamer, cyclone missile launcher, and assault cannon. (Well the GK have psycannon but they are special). Giving terminator only heavy weapons to regular SM would dilute terminators already low desirability. They did this once with lightning claws and thunderhammer/storm shield load out which used to be terminator only as well.

So far has the belt thingy. Fluff wise its probably a matter of lost tech. Although with the return of SM grav weapons they could certainly claim that the Adeptus Mechanicus found a lost pattern. But it would probably only apply to the next two codices and not be takable by older codices, like centurions/hunters/grav weapons at present.

Rumbleguts wrote:
You might notice that terminators have 3 heavy weapons choices that no other SM troop can, heavy flamer, cyclone missile launcher, and assault cannon. (Well the GK have psycannon but they are special). Giving terminator only heavy weapons to regular SM would dilute terminators already low desirability. They did this once with lightning claws and thunderhammer/storm shield load out which used to be terminator only as well.

I see where you're coming from, but Tac termies need a lot more fixing that offering Tac squads a heavy flamer won't break them any further than they already are. There have been a few ideas rattled around in the other thread, in which I posted my ideas, but there's really no reason for Tac squads not to have a heavy flamer option.

So far has the belt thingy. Fluff wise its probably a matter of lost tech. Although with the return of SM grav weapons they could certainly claim that the Adeptus Mechanicus found a lost pattern. But it would probably only apply to the next two codices and not be takable by older codices, like centurions/hunters/grav weapons at present.

Yeah, the fluff aspect is incredibly easy to work in, so I'm not worried about it.

My idea is that it would apply to the codices that have normal Tac squads (ones with a forced special/heavy loadout), which would be C:SM, C: DA, and C: BA. New or old, updated or otherwise, this rule would help them nicely and make heavy weapons worth taking as a viable option. And only for tactical squads. No one else.

Maybe the Suspensor Web could be used for Sternguard Vets, but I don't really know if it'd be a wise choice allowing other squads to take it, otherwise you'd have a load of mobile Lascannons and Missile Launchers. Imagine a Dev. Squad hopping about with Lascannons.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Maybe the Suspensor Web could be used for Sternguard Vets, but I don't really know if it'd be a wise choice allowing other squads to take it, otherwise you'd have a load of mobile Lascannons and Missile Launchers. Imagine a Dev. Squad hopping about with Lascannons.

Which is exactly why I'd only give them to Tac squads. A single heavy weapon in a squad that would cost a minimum of 140pts, plus the web and the heavy weapon isn't anything to write home about, but its certainly a lot better and would entice players to actually take a heavy weapon and maybe get some use out of them.

Again, this idea is purely for Tac squads. I've made that decision because its a balanced way to do it.

Just a few things for me

1: change heavy bolter to some sort of salvo weapon so its actually useful
2: actually give tac marines auspex so we could actually use them outside of HQs

Tactical should stay troops.

Start giving them access to 10 special weapons then they get ridiculous. They where never ment to be super killy units.

 Desubot wrote:
Just a few things for me

1: change heavy bolter to some sort of salvo weapon so its actually useful

This is also a decent idea, and something JustDave did for his fan dex back in 5th, or something similar anyways. However, this doesn't address the problem with it being a heavy weapon on a squad that will often be moving to take objectives.

2: actually give tac marines auspex so we could actually use them outside of HQs

This is interesting, but at 5pts, it'd be spammed excessively, and the last thing this game needs is more ways to remove cover.

Tactical should stay troops.

Well, yes? My suggestion does nothing to change that, so I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Start giving them access to 10 special weapons then they get ridiculous. They where never ment to be super killy units.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from, unless you're referring to the HH army list. In which case, Tactical Support squads are balanced by having to take two other troop choices first before using them as non-compulsory.

But I'm not discussing the HH list, I'm trying to make ordinary C:SM tac squads a little better by being able to move and shoot their heavy weapons.

Yeah sorry mind is wandering


Saw 30k then mind went blank

 Desubot wrote:
Yeah sorry mind is wandering


Saw 30k then mind went blank

Happens, I figured at least one person would get confused, as I mentioned 30k a few times in my post.

No worries.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Yeah sorry mind is wandering


Saw 30k then mind went blank

Happens, I figured at least one person would get confused, as I mentioned 30k a few times in my post.

No worries.

Speaking of 30k; Tactical Squads would really benefit if they had a "Fury of the Legion"-esque rule. You could feasibly transplant it since one of the stipulations is that at least 5 models in the unit need to remain, which gives a lot less room for error than you have in the Horus Heresy book.

"Fury of the Chapter" would work.
It helps solve the firepower problem for Tactical Squads pretty well since they can put out a fair bit more firepower. Also, making Space Marine snapshots BS2 (fluff it as some sort of power armor deal) would help a lot in that arena.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


Speaking of 30k; Tactical Squads would really benefit if they had a "Fury of the Legion"-esque rule. You could feasibly transplant it since one of the stipulations is that at least 5 models in the unit need to remain, which gives a lot less room for error than you have in the Horus Heresy book.

"Fury of the Chapter" would work.
It helps solve the firepower problem for Tactical Squads pretty well since they can put out a fair bit more firepower. Also, making Space Marine snapshots BS2 (fluff it as some sort of power armor deal) would help a lot in that arena.

Actually, this isn't a bad idea for them. Well, its pretty much the only thing that makes the 30k Tac Squad worth taking, though Heavy Flamer Sally rhinos are pretty cool being S6...but anyways, tangents.

I guess my biggest gripe with tac squads is that we have this option for a heavy weapon, but if that option was for a special or heavy, no one would ever take the heavy. The fury idea makes them better anti-horde units, but they still have a largely useless heavy weapon slot if the unit moves at all.

The fury rule itself is balanced, particularly with all the restrictions, and it'd be a bit of a motivation to bring 10-man squads. However, the issue is with the IF and UM CTs that would wreck face of most infantry units with all those re-rolls in a single shooting phase.

I'd be hesitant with the possibilities of the new CTs, but I'm also not against it either, as Tac squads aren't exactly making anyone scared.

Yeah, so any thoughts on my proposal in the original thread?

 Blacksails wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


Speaking of 30k; Tactical Squads would really benefit if they had a "Fury of the Legion"-esque rule. You could feasibly transplant it since one of the stipulations is that at least 5 models in the unit need to remain, which gives a lot less room for error than you have in the Horus Heresy book.

"Fury of the Chapter" would work.
It helps solve the firepower problem for Tactical Squads pretty well since they can put out a fair bit more firepower. Also, making Space Marine snapshots BS2 (fluff it as some sort of power armor deal) would help a lot in that arena.

Actually, this isn't a bad idea for them. Well, its pretty much the only thing that makes the 30k Tac Squad worth taking, though Heavy Flamer Sally rhinos are pretty cool being S6...but anyways, tangents.

I guess my biggest gripe with tac squads is that we have this option for a heavy weapon, but if that option was for a special or heavy, no one would ever take the heavy. The fury idea makes them better anti-horde units, but they still have a largely useless heavy weapon slot if the unit moves at all.

Yeah for sure, I totally understand that. I'm applying a sort of different logic to fixing the problem of Tactical squad firepower.

The fury rule itself is balanced, particularly with all the restrictions, and it'd be a bit of a motivation to bring 10-man squads. However, the issue is with the IF and UM CTs that would wreck face of most infantry units with all those re-rolls in a single shooting phase.

I don't think that it's too bad, considering that Marines are significantly more fragile (to me at least) in 40k than they are in 30k. The chances of a full-health tactical squad using "Fury of the Chapter" is almost nil and even then, the Ultramarines tactic is a once-per-game thing. Think of all the pieces that need to fit here: 1; the squad did not move, 2; the squad has more than 5 models, 3; the squad is in range, and 4; you need to use a once-per-game ability (with some minor exceptions, in the case of the Ultras).

It's powerful yes but really needs a lot to be fulfilled. Imperial Fists benefit a bit more but the increase in firepower is still pretty marginal. At least there are very few ways to get Divination. Only the Mantis Warriors and Ultramarines can get it without allies so it isn't a big deal.

Yeah, so any thoughts on my proposal in the original thread?

Back to your original idea! I personally like it. Suspensors were on all Space Marine weapons in the olden days and allowed Tactical squads to be mobile elements. I think that making a Suspensor cost 5 points would be fine because 30k sometimes costs things differently.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Yeah for sure, I totally understand that. I'm applying a sort of different logic to fixing the problem of Tactical squad firepower.

Right, I understand. I guess I should have been more specific about fixing the somewhat/mostly/maybe useless heavy weapon slot.

I don't think that it's too bad, considering that Marines are significantly more fragile (to me at least) in 40k than they are in 30k. The chances of a full-health tactical squad using "Fury of the Chapter" is almost nil and even then, the Ultramarines tactic is a once-per-game thing. Think of all the pieces that need to fit here: 1; the squad did not move, 2; the squad has more than 5 models, 3; the squad is in range, and 4; you need to use a once-per-game ability (with some minor exceptions, in the case of the Ultras).

Well, I guess when you put it that way. I guess bladestorm wasn't exactly overpowered on Dire Avengers, and it didn't have half the amount of restrictions.

It's powerful yes but really needs a lot to be fulfilled. Imperial Fists benefit a bit more but the increase in firepower is still pretty marginal. At least there are very few ways to get Divination. Only the Mantis Warriors and Ultramarines can get it without allies so it isn't a big deal.

Yeah, I guess its really not that bad. Certainly something I'd playtest if/when I ever get a proper game in. And after I buy my Sallies. Shhhh, wallet, shhhhh, it'll be okay.

Back to your original idea! I personally like it. Suspensors were on all Space Marine weapons in the olden days and allowed Tactical squads to be mobile elements. I think that making a Suspensor cost 5 points would be fine because 30k sometimes costs things differently.

Sorry, it was a normal thing at one point? When was this? I'm genuinely curious, I'm a relatively new wargamer by many standards, so I don't know what the older editions of 40k were like.

I'd start the suspensor out at 10pts for play testing. I don't think it'd be overpowered at 5pts or anything, but something new like this would be good starting at 10pts and working from there, personally.

 Blacksails wrote:
for the love of all that is Salamander, give tac squads the heavy flamer.
.

Can i just mention as a major sallies fan that even though everyone thinks sm/ sallies need hvy flamer they don't in the tome of fire books Ba'Ken admits he is the only tactical marine to use a hvy flamer so hvy flamer is a no but maybe hand flamers and inferno pistols on your veteran sarge and some kind of rig that allows you to have slow and purposeful on your tactical marine

the rig of mars max 15+pts 4 per army
-1 strength on the hvy weapon and slow and purposeful on the squad

and give bolter hellfire rounds because scouts get the shells so bolters should be able to take hellfire rounds at like 2+ pts per model

wargey wrote:
Can i just mention as a major sallies fan that even though everyone thinks sm/ sallies need hvy flamer they don't in the tome of fire books Ba'Ken admits he is the only tactical marine to use a hvy flamer so hvy flamer is a no but maybe hand flamers and inferno pistols on your veteran sarge and some kind of rig that allows you to have slow and purposeful on your tactical marine

the rig of mars max 15+pts 4 per army
-1 strength on the hvy weapon and slow and purposeful on the squad

and give bolter hellfire rounds because scouts get the shells so bolters should be able to take hellfire rounds at like 2+ pts per model

Well, I'm not bothered about any fluff considerations. Considering that every time a new codex comes out, we have all these brand new additions and changes, its easy to justify having heavy flamers. Look at the addition of grav guns and centurions for an example.

Hellfire on the Heavy Bolter is another decent idea that I'd entertain.

Your rig of mars isn't a bad idea, but we already have this piece of wargear (the one I propsed) as an existing thing with established rules. The item is already balanced with the cost and halving the range of the heavy weapons (a 24" Missile launcher won't be striking fear into your opponents), and its not like Tactical Squads need some kind of nerf just to use their heavy weapon for the whole squad.

Feel free to test out both and see which one works better/receives better feedback.

If tactical squads could take a heavy flamer instead of a heavy weapon, they had might as well get to take anything, like a witch blade or a power fist or an attack bike. Actually, it would be exactly like saying that one of the marines "may exchange his bolter for one of these heavy weapons or a thunder hammer." Heavy Flamers and Thunder Hammers have about the same range.

Tactical squads have one fire support gun, so that they can support other units and attack at range. If they have a heavy flamer instead, they are not really tactical squads any more.

I'm not trying to tell you you have to change and it is unacceptable to etcetera etecetera, because it does not really matter, it is just something to say.

If tactical squads could take 2x special weapons instead of heavy weapons, I'd still take a heavy weapon 80% of the time.

Suspensors are fine, people have wondered if tactical squads would get them in every marine codex since fourth edition, just for heavy bolters or for everything. I believe that they would not be at all called for if it were not for the rules being what they are.

Marines always had suspensors in Rogue Trader, but they worked differently then and the background was different. Carrying heavy armor or weapons actually slowed movement, and marines were more like special forces for the regular army than superhuman independent units, so they were more reliant on their gear. They are definitely more useful for Killteams than for tactical squads, which are the last places they were seen in rules outside of forgeworld.

I'm sorry, but what?

How would a heavy flamer being available be in the same logical league as witchblades? Not to be rude, but did you honestly think any of those comparisons through?

There's a list in the C:SM for heavy weapons. In that list are a variety of heavy weapons, including the heavy flamer. The heavy flamer has an asterix, which explains only squads 'x' may take them.

My proposal would be to remove that asterix. Not to include witchblades, not to have a random bike, not to have thunderhammers.

I have absolutely no clue where you're even getting this whole 'Tactical Squad won't be one anymore with a heavy flamer' nonsense. Maybe you should explain your reasoning instead of using wild examples and hyperbole.

Actually I do not think I will.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Actually I do not think I will.

Instead of actually explaining yourself, you respond with this, which means nothing in the context of my post.

Literally makes no sense what you posted.

Are you going to contribute at all in a meaningful manner?

I never understood why a heavy flamer couldn't be taken but a multi-melta could. They seem a similar size,and are both "heavy" versions of standard weapons. No problem with taking them at all.

The suspensor web is in 40k fluff as being used in the 41st millennium... by the Deathwatch of the Ordo Xenos. They're written as a piece of tech that's slowly disappearing, so it's a special tool used by the inquisition. So you could rediscover their STC, if you wanted, but they haven't gone anywhere (and Ordo Xenos have no rules, except for the inquisitor in the GK book)

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


Speaking of 30k; Tactical Squads would really benefit if they had a "Fury of the Legion"-esque rule. You could feasibly transplant it since one of the stipulations is that at least 5 models in the unit need to remain, which gives a lot less room for error than you have in the Horus Heresy book.

"Fury of the Chapter" would work.
It helps solve the firepower problem for Tactical Squads pretty well since they can put out a fair bit more firepower. Also, making Space Marine snapshots BS2 (fluff it as some sort of power armor deal) would help a lot in that arena.

Actually, this isn't a bad idea for them. Well, its pretty much the only thing that makes the 30k Tac Squad worth taking, though Heavy Flamer Sally rhinos are pretty cool being S6...but anyways, tangents.

I guess my biggest gripe with tac squads is that we have this option for a heavy weapon, but if that option was for a special or heavy, no one would ever take the heavy. The fury idea makes them better anti-horde units, but they still have a largely useless heavy weapon slot if the unit moves at all.

Yeah for sure, I totally understand that. I'm applying a sort of different logic to fixing the problem of Tactical squad firepower.

The fury rule itself is balanced, particularly with all the restrictions, and it'd be a bit of a motivation to bring 10-man squads. However, the issue is with the IF and UM CTs that would wreck face of most infantry units with all those re-rolls in a single shooting phase.

I don't think that it's too bad, considering that Marines are significantly more fragile (to me at least) in 40k than they are in 30k. The chances of a full-health tactical squad using "Fury of the Chapter" is almost nil and even then, the Ultramarines tactic is a once-per-game thing. Think of all the pieces that need to fit here: 1; the squad did not move, 2; the squad has more than 5 models, 3; the squad is in range, and 4; you need to use a once-per-game ability (with some minor exceptions, in the case of the Ultras).

It's powerful yes but really needs a lot to be fulfilled. Imperial Fists benefit a bit more but the increase in firepower is still pretty marginal. At least there are very few ways to get Divination. Only the Mantis Warriors and Ultramarines can get it without allies so it isn't a big deal.

Yeah, so any thoughts on my proposal in the original thread?

Back to your original idea! I personally like it. Suspensors were on all Space Marine weapons in the olden days and allowed Tactical squads to be mobile elements. I think that making a Suspensor cost 5 points would be fine because 30k sometimes costs things differently.

I personally think that suspensor webs would be OK for tac squads as it would only affect the one heavy weapon.

If they were in common use during the heresy, I would want them included in the chaos codex for csm squads as well.

It's not entirely true that if Tac Squads have the option for a "Special and a Heavy or a Special", the heavies will never get taken.

People take heavy weapons on Battle Sister squads, who do have that option, after all.

What I don't necessarily approve of is Marines stealing yet another unique Sisters advantage (doubled-up special weapons).

I guess heavy flamers in tac squads goes against the codex or something? Since the idea is to combat squad, one for fire support, one for advancing. You're talking about throwing that away to make Tactical Squads into storm troopers (IE: storming the trenches troopers). While that's not a bad idea, the codex holding the Marines back has always been a powerful fluff element, to me at least.

 Blacksails wrote:
Going back to HH, there's a piece of wargear called a suspensor web. It can be taken in a few squads that can take heavy weapons, and it turns heavy weapons into assault weapons with half the range if the model moved. Basically, a heavy bolter with the web would be either stationary Heavy 3 R36", or moving Assault 3 R18". The wargear doesn't have an explicit cost, but it can roughly inferred as being 10pts plus the cost of the weapon.

Now, you can take a tac squad with plasma and plasma cannon and shoot it at 18", or do melta/multi-melta which would in effect make it a double melta. Heavy bolter would go well with the flamer, and so on. This gives tac squads some genuinely decent shooting at the ranges their bolters generally operate at, while retaining the versatility of being able to stand and shoot further as required. All for an extra 10pts, which keeps them reasonable and far from overpowered.

I think this is totally reasonable.

The suspensor has been around forever. I'm not sure if you remember Space Crusade, but that's where I first saw it. It was a card you could hold as a piece of equipment and it allowed you to do exactly that.

I would also love it if they allowed Assault Cannon's to be equipped by Tac squads (a la Space Crusade).