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I have the Black Legion supplement, and it has great fluff and describes the whole history of the Black Crusades.

Rules wise, my Black Legion army, the Black Voices, does NOT use any of the rules from the supplement. Why? Because I don't like the changes. I can take Abbadon in the normal codex, and the Daemon Weapons of the codex are much better than the ones in the supplement. Now, if it had been worded the way the IF one is, where the relics are IN ADDITION to the ones in the codex, I would probably use the supplement. But it clearly says you may NOT use the codex artifacts. Taking Chosen as Troops is useful, and not needing Abbadon to do it is nice. The upgrades to Terminators are fine, BUT you must use Abbadon to do it.

Overall, the supplements are a choice. I doubt there is any tournament that would require the use of a supplement for any kind of army, but would ALLOW the use of them.

 chaosvoices wrote:
I have the Black Legion supplement, and it has great fluff and describes the whole history of the Black Crusades.

Rules wise, my Black Legion army, the Black Voices, does NOT use any of the rules from the supplement. Why? Because I don't like the changes. I can take Abbadon in the normal codex, and the Daemon Weapons of the codex are much better than the ones in the supplement. Now, if it had been worded the way the IF one is, where the relics are IN ADDITION to the ones in the codex, I would probably use the supplement. But it clearly says you may NOT use the codex artifacts. Taking Chosen as Troops is useful, and not needing Abbadon to do it is nice. The upgrades to Terminators are fine, BUT you must use Abbadon to do it.

Overall, the supplements are a choice. I doubt there is any tournament that would require the use of a supplement for any kind of army, but would ALLOW the use of them.

The problem is that chosen are now far more expensive, and that Terminator upgrade is HORRIBLY expensive for what it does.

If they had made it so that VOTLW was not mandatory, I might've actually used it, as it is it just makes an expensive army worse.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 chaosvoices wrote:
I have the Black Legion supplement, and it has great fluff and describes the whole history of the Black Crusades.

Rules wise, my Black Legion army, the Black Voices, does NOT use any of the rules from the supplement. Why? Because I don't like the changes. I can take Abbadon in the normal codex, and the Daemon Weapons of the codex are much better than the ones in the supplement. Now, if it had been worded the way the IF one is, where the relics are IN ADDITION to the ones in the codex, I would probably use the supplement. But it clearly says you may NOT use the codex artifacts. Taking Chosen as Troops is useful, and not needing Abbadon to do it is nice. The upgrades to Terminators are fine, BUT you must use Abbadon to do it.

Overall, the supplements are a choice. I doubt there is any tournament that would require the use of a supplement for any kind of army, but would ALLOW the use of them.

The problem is that chosen are now far more expensive, and that Terminator upgrade is HORRIBLY expensive for what it does.

If they had made it so that VOTLW was not mandatory, I might've actually used it, as it is it just makes an expensive army worse.

I do not know why people dislike VotLW. Since I make my army static, I always have it so it doesn't make me look like I tailor when facing someone I know plays SM. The +1 Leadership is nice too, since my marines become non-fearless when the icon is destroyed. At 1-4 points per model, it is not bad IMO.

But back on topic, I like the IF supplement's options. You can have your normal IF army out of C:SM, and Ally with the IF 3rd Company out of the supplement, to represent people with different training. You don't have to do your whole army out of either source.

 Aeroroot wrote:
My understanding is that it is only really any good as fluff. Not worth it for the rules, but worth it for the background if you are into that sort of thing.

The fluff also isn't worth it that much either considering chunks will end up C/P'd to the wikis. Then there's the fact that novels about whatever the supplement is for tend to be better. For example, the Horus Heresy novels focusing on the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus/Black legion give you a far greater understanding of the Legion than supplements ever would, as the novels let you see the Legion through the troops eyes.

I'd just pick up one of Black Library books on the Fists and skip the Supplement considering the fluff they provide normally isn't that good either. The only supplement as of late that I think was worth anything was the Black Legion, as it provided some information on the organization the Black Legion that the Black Library never really touched on. But I doubt there's going to be anything in the Fists supplement that you desperately need to know or couldn't get anywhere else.

Although you could always sucker a friend into it just to be safe, considering that's always the best option to see if you should buy something. Guinea pigs.

So before I go and spend the money. The Fists supplement needs to be run with yellow Imperial Fists right?

Alexi wrote:
So before I go and spend the money. The Fists supplement needs to be run with yellow Imperial Fists right?

I don't think it needs to be taken that literally . I'm sure an Imperial Fist successor chapter could use the supplement too, or a homebrew chapter of your own that uses tactics similar to that in the book.

Alexi wrote:
So before I go and spend the money. The Fists supplement needs to be run with yellow Imperial Fists right?

No, You don't need any specifics besides the people behind the rules being Astartes, Loyalist or even Chaos. For example, I'm starting out on the tabletop by building a CSM Night Lords army running under Raven Guard rules. The only way I could see there being a problem is if you tried to run Imperial Guard, Tau, etc under the supplement's rules.

YAY!! I play an IF successor chapter. I sorta want to use the company supplement as my chapter tactics. 2 dev squads, a TFC and a dev cent squad? Hmmmmm

Alexi wrote:
YAY!! I play an IF successor chapter. I sorta want to use the company supplement as my chapter tactics. 2 dev squads, a TFC and a dev cent squad? Hmmmmm

Perfectly legit. Supplements can serve a lot of armies within that race, not just the one on the cover. I for instance am now designing a N'dras sept army for Tau that solely uses Crisis Battlesuits. Hence the Farsight supplement is my friend. Your imagination (and 40k lore) is the limit my friend

 Wyzilla wrote:

Alexi wrote:
So before I go and spend the money. The Fists supplement needs to be run with yellow Imperial Fists right?

No, You don't need any specifics besides the people behind the rules being Astartes, Loyalist or even Chaos. For example, I'm starting out on the tabletop by building a CSM Night Lords army running under Raven Guard rules. The only way I could see there being a problem is if you tried to run Imperial Guard, Tau, etc under the supplement's rules.

It wouldn't be a problem if your "skin swap" was consistent in all detachments. For example, if you ran traitor guard or traitor PDF along your Alpha Legion, you could use all Imperial codices. Some people might object, but as long as it looks good and isn't illogical, most people will have fun and still play you.

zilka86 wrote:
You both the sm codex and IF codex to play IF BECAUSE GW IS TO LAZY TO PUT EVER THING IN ONE BOOK. same goes or tau you now need 2books to play faresight bacause they didn't pur all the rules in one book and running firesighr from just the codex is not legal as he has been changed by firesight codex

I'm assuming you're a troll, but I'm willing to admit it's possible that you're correct. Can someone end this with a rules quote? I'm assuming that there isn't one, and that means that you can use any legal rules you want (i.e. - you don't have to use a supplement to represent a force unless you want to). Also, a really good point is that this supplemental rules set only covers 3rd Company. So just say your army is 4th company and then it's not an issue.

And if Zilka is trolling, aren't there mods who can, you know, get rid of people like that? It's a shame to see a thread go downhill this fast.

There is no rules quote, GW has never mandated anything in the vien of fluff (color choices, heraldry, history, names) under any kind of rules. I could paint my space wolves yellow with fisty shoulder pads, and play then using the thousand sons rules if I wanted and theres nothing to stop me.

The only requirements have been that models are represented with the correct gear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Im less sure than everyone else.... Ive looked back at some of his posts... I feel as if he may be legitimately challenged. Either that or he's very very dedicated and practiced at sounding like a petulant grade schooler

 Ugin, the Owl King wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Alexi wrote:
So before I go and spend the money. The Fists supplement needs to be run with yellow Imperial Fists right?

No, You don't need any specifics besides the people behind the rules being Astartes, Loyalist or even Chaos. For example, I'm starting out on the tabletop by building a CSM Night Lords army running under Raven Guard rules. The only way I could see there being a problem is if you tried to run Imperial Guard, Tau, etc under the supplement's rules.

It wouldn't be a problem if your "skin swap" was consistent in all detachments. For example, if you ran traitor guard or traitor PDF along your Alpha Legion, you could use all Imperial codices. Some people might object, but as long as it looks good and isn't illogical, most people will have fun and still play you.

zilka86 wrote:
You both the sm codex and IF codex to play IF BECAUSE GW IS TO LAZY TO PUT EVER THING IN ONE BOOK. same goes or tau you now need 2books to play faresight bacause they didn't pur all the rules in one book and running firesighr from just the codex is not legal as he has been changed by firesight codex

I'm assuming you're a troll, but I'm willing to admit it's possible that you're correct. Can someone end this with a rules quote? I'm assuming that there isn't one, and that means that you can use any legal rules you want (i.e. - you don't have to use a supplement to represent a force unless you want to). Also, a really good point is that this supplemental rules set only covers 3rd Company. So just say your army is 4th company and then it's not an issue.

And if Zilka is trolling, aren't there mods who can, you know, get rid of people like that? It's a shame to see a thread go downhill this fast.

Well obviously if you're main army has support, you'd be using material for that other army as well and mixing the rules. You'd still want to lay out the details to the guy you'd be playing however so he isn't surprised or calls BS on something for being cheesy.

 davou wrote:
There is no rules quote, GW has never mandated anything in the vien of fluff (color choices, heraldry, history, names) under any kind of rules. I could paint my space wolves yellow with fisty shoulder pads, and play then using the thousand sons rules if I wanted and theres nothing to stop me.

The only requirements have been that models are represented with the correct gear.

100% correct. And also there is no rule stating that you must use supplements if you play an army represented by a supplement. As many GW people say, it is our game at the end of the day, and we may use supplements, create new armies, or make house rules to suit our needs. While none are official, we all have the right to.

Oh and zilka is a well known troll on this site. Unfortunately he doesn't bend the rules far enough to give the mods a reason to ban or suspend him.

G.A

As a concept, I like the idea of supplements. The ability to flesh-out specific parts of an army and give you more options then the codex orginally presented. Having said that I think that GW could do it far better then they are currently doing. There is no good reason for a supplement to be $40, especially when the additional rules could easily have fit in the original codex itself.

Personally I would just borrow someones supplement, see how much you like it, and if you do then get your own. On the other hand if you don't like it then you're not out $40.