Switch Theme:

How do you kill a riptide?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca
Trustworthy Shas'vre




I'd play Riptides because I dig giant robots more so than their competitive value, but I won't deny that their prowess is an incentive for me to field them.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that this is a game based around head to head competition and that spamming the most potent units you can is a highly competitive strategy. Each edition gets their turn at the top of the pile and currently Tau are up there and the Riptide is a reason why.

However, as I spent a large portion of the last year of 5th edition playing my Tau mostly against Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Necrons I can't say that I am particularly disappointed by the fact that the kid who everyone used to eat up for his lunch money spent his summer at the gym and came back to show the bullies what's for.

For those whose army recently had their day but find themselves on the short nd of the pulse rifle - that's the way the cookie crumbles in this game. Someday you'll have your place in the sun again, but for now the Tau are getting their turn to shine.

To those sitting near the bottom of the pile after years of playing an old codex. Don't worry, your turn is coming soon. You'll soon be listening to the rants of those who find your newfound capabilities 'broken' or 'overpowered.'

Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. 
   
Made in us
Major




Fortress of Solitude

 Zagman wrote:


I will agree a 7 Riptides list would be nuts, but guess what, its not a good list. Any Fast assault army, especially with first turn will effectively autowin. Any FMC army, will effectively auto Win.



Not really. 4 Str 8 Large Blasts, 4 Secondary Systems, followed the guns of 3 R'varnas should put a decent dent in any rush list. In assault, don't forget you are dealing with 7(!) MCs. 4 or more in a single combat should tie up a unit indefinitely/ kill a weakened unit.

In addition, the jump moves afterwards for the regular riptides should move out of the threat radius.

Hardly an 'Auto WIn'.

Celesticon 2013 Warhammer 40k Tournament- Best General
Sydney August 2014 Warhammer 40k Tournament-Best General 
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





UK

It is genuinely funny to watch Tau players attempt to justify their victories with Riptides. Especially when they say such moronic things as 'just ignore the high strength AP2 pie plate dispenser with interceptor!'

If you don't compensate enough for 2+ save MC's which were previously seen once in a blue moon, you're boned, and you're increasingly boned with each additional Riptide they add. I have to tailor every single one of my lists now to be able to tackle double-tide, and at 600/1200 GW format that's almost impossible without compromising my list; 1500 just becomes manageable.

They're 30-40 points undercosted, absurdly effective, they get abilities some units wish they had for practically nothing; 5 points for interceptor, anyone? Having the ability to JSJ? TL Melta? Lets chuck in a Nova Reactor just 'cos.

I have watched Riptides single handedly carry entire games for many people. Such is the hilarity that I have yet to fail to predict the outcome of a game with double/triptide present. I rarely see Pathfinders, which Tau players claim is the only reason the Riptide even works, ever get used.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/15 15:43:46


 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





Intersting. I've lost 2 games against doubletide. One was my Nids vs Eldau and one of his Riptides had the buffmander and Eldrad hanging out with no LoS blocking terrain on the table in a kill point game. I had essentially no chance and didn't lose because of the riptides.

The other one was my playing Space Marines for the first time with a non-tweaked list against Torks. The Riptides did some damage but the only reason I lost was the boy squad I underestimated.

In neither game did I fire a single shot at the Riptides.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

rigeld2 wrote:
 earlofburger wrote:
Are you fething kidding me? low damage output? You're more delusional than a Beil-tan eldar.

No - he's right. Unsupported (ie, without marker lights or a buffmander) they aren't that impressive damage wise.

lets see, S8 AP2 72" Large blast and 4 TL S5 AP5 30" ignore cover and line of sight is not impressive
I'm kind of scared of your army then.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Co'tor Shas wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 earlofburger wrote:
Are you fething kidding me? low damage output? You're more delusional than a Beil-tan eldar.

No - he's right. Unsupported (ie, without marker lights or a buffmander) they aren't that impressive damage wise.

lets see, S8 AP2 72" Large blast and 4 TL S5 AP5 30" ignore cover and line of sight is not impressive
I'm kind of scared of your army then.

It's a slightly better Leman Russ. I'm not scared of an individual Leman Russ' damage output.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

rigeld2 wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 earlofburger wrote:
Are you fething kidding me? low damage output? You're more delusional than a Beil-tan eldar.

No - he's right. Unsupported (ie, without marker lights or a buffmander) they aren't that impressive damage wise.

lets see, S8 AP2 72" Large blast and 4 TL S5 AP5 30" ignore cover and line of sight is not impressive
I'm kind of scared of your army then.

It's a slightly better Leman Russ. I'm not scared of an individual Leman Russ' damage output.

..and it's more survivable than a leamn russ. I don't know the points difference though.
Although personally I don't like to play with them, because I like crisis suits better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr.Omega wrote:
...triptide...

Is that a riptide on drugs?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/15 16:31:45


Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Co'tor Shas wrote:
..and it's more survivable than a leamn russ. I don't know the points difference though.
Although personally I don't like to play with them, because I like crisis suits better.

Survivability is irrelevant if I don't care what it's shooting. And given an adequate amount of LoS blocking terrain I don't.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/15 16:37:54


My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in ca
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





I second the thought that nothing is unbeatable in the right circumstances; and I'd find it unsportsman-like if an opponent decided to give my army a pass just because it happened to be designed using any preferred codexs' more efficient units, Riptides included.

This game is not all about you. it is a team effort where both of you come to have fun; so if your opponent shows up with a list your current list has difficulty with? Learn From It and come back next week with a concept better able to handle the new hotness. Giving someone a hard time over choosing to play the units they like the best seems pointlessly counter-intuitive to me.


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Neorealist wrote:
I second the thought that nothing is unbeatable in the right circumstances; and I'd find it unsportsman-like if an opponent decided to give my army a pass just because it happened to be designed using any preferred codexs' more efficient units, Riptides included.

This game is not all about you. it is a team effort where both of you come to have fun; so if your opponent shows up with a list your current list has difficulty with? Learn From It and come back next week with a concept better able to handle the new hotness. Giving someone a hard time over choosing to play the units they like the best seems pointlessly counter-intuitive to me.



So it's okay for the Tau player to show up with a ridiculous power list, but not okay for someone to decide "nah, not worth my time"?

It's a team effort to have fun, but that apparently doesn't extend to knowingly using multiple highly overpowered/undercosted units?

What the frell am I even reading here?
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre






 earlofburger wrote:
Just like games with two or three or four or five or six or seven or eight Wave Serpents? Or two or Three Helldrakes? Or two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine Vendettas? Or Wraiths, or Night Scythes, or FMCs, or Khorne Hounds, or Screamers, or the Doom, or lions or tigers or bears oh my.


Looks like I struck a nerve, how many riptides do you run? 4? 5? Also I find it funny that you mentioned all these power builds and not one is for my army, if orks even have one. Serpent spam and heldrakes are terrible cheese and this goes without saying but it's pointless to bring them up.


Quit whining and act like an adult. Its a legal Army list and FOC selection. Get off your high horse, many different people play this game for many different reasons. You may find taking two or three Riptides "Cheesy" or "Beardy" or OTT, etc. I don't really care what you think, they are a part of the game and people have just as much right to take them as any other legal selection. If you want to play casual and fluffy, do so, but leave your judgement and closed minded prejudice out of other people's game.


Do seriously want me to believe that people run riptides for fluff? People run riptides because they want to win, it's that simple. And it's true many people play this game for many different reasons, but anyone who is running more than 2 or 3 of the abominable riptide is a power gaming cheese master.

The question is how do you kill them. They have relatively low damage output if they are not supported, and that support is expensive as well. They are a tool, and certainly not the creme de la creme of 40k. With Bugs, IG, and Orks on the horizon we are going to see the Riptide be effectively countered.


Are you fething kidding me? low damage output? You're more delusional than a Beil-tan eldar.


Yes, you struck a nerve. I don't like whining or people who think they know how everyone should play the game for their enjoyment.

I run two or Three at 1850/2000, and honestly in my Triptide Build I'd be better off only running two and swapping the third for a pair of Skyrays.

I never said people run Riptides are for fluff, I run mine to make my Suits and Drones themed army work. You obviously missed the entire point of that section of my post. Now, you have changed your tune, now more than two or three is cheese, before it was 2 or more. Your story is changing.

They do have a relatively low damage output when unsupported. If you they unsupported Riptides are king, there is little I can say to you that you will understand. Versus most targets and unsupported Riptide has a lower damage output than a stock Leman Russ at a greater cost. Where the Riptide excels is durability, not firepower. Even the O'VesaStar, a minimul two Riptide build runs into serious diminishing return with four and five Riptides. IMO, 2-3 is the Sweet Spot for most Riptide based lists.


You need to get off your high horse and stop being so judgmental. I have no problem with ultra casual gamers and if that is the kind of game someone wants, I will sometimes oblidge them but prefer to avoid such games. It pains me to be inefficient and create weak builds. I prefer competitive play and tell all of my potential opponents that, and if someone knows that is the game I am looking for and brings a weak list, then they have absolutely no right to judge me and whine and call cheese.

Its about effective communication, we aren't all playing the same game. When two players differ too much on the competitive/casual continuum is when we have major problems. Find opponents with the same expectations as you and you are just fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
 earlofburger wrote:
Are you fething kidding me? low damage output? You're more delusional than a Beil-tan eldar.

No - he's right. Unsupported (ie, without marker lights or a buffmander) they aren't that impressive damage wise.


rigeld2 wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
..and it's more survivable than a leamn russ. I don't know the points difference though.
Although personally I don't like to play with them, because I like crisis suits better.

Survivability is irrelevant if I don't care what it's shooting. And given an adequate amount of LoS blocking terrain I don't.



I'm glad someone outthere is playing the same game I do.



Its the whole casual vs competitive argument all over again. Make sure you and your opponent are playing the same game and most of these issues will disappear. What kills me is that anyone believes theirs is the only way to play the game, what arrogance and narcissism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
 Zagman wrote:


I will agree a 7 Riptides list would be nuts, but guess what, its not a good list. Any Fast assault army, especially with first turn will effectively autowin. Any FMC army, will effectively auto Win.



Not really. 4 Str 8 Large Blasts, 4 Secondary Systems, followed the guns of 3 R'varnas should put a decent dent in any rush list. In assault, don't forget you are dealing with 7(!) MCs. 4 or more in a single combat should tie up a unit indefinitely/ kill a weakened unit.

In addition, the jump moves afterwards for the regular riptides should move out of the threat radius.

Hardly an 'Auto WIn'.


Not really. A handful of FMCs would simply win against that proposed 7 Riptide list. IA Riptides suck at AA, and the R'Varna cannot even target a Flyers. That is an Autowin or as close to it in 40k.

Really, a Multi DLord Wraithwing list wouldn't trounce those Riptides? Or Khornedog Rush with the Grimiore.

Don't forget IA gets Hot and at BS3 isn't terribly likely to hit, then its hitting Invuln Saves. If the Rush army goes firt the Riptides get a single Turn, and the are toast.

Tied up in Combat indefinitely is a win. Anyone bringing that many Riptides as terrible scoring potential and will lose. It is not a good or tournament winning build, not in the slightest.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/15 17:18:29


40k is 100% Skill +/- 50% Luck

Zagman's 40k Balance Errata 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 Zagman wrote:
Anyone bringing that many Riptides as terrible scoring potential and will lose.

When you think about it, if they have that many riptides, all the troops they have are probably just two minimum FW squads, very easy to take out. Especially with helldrakes .

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/15 17:44:31


Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mr.Omega wrote:
I rarely see Pathfinders, which Tau players claim is the only reason the Riptide even works, ever get used.


This! "Just target the pathfinders and they become next to useless."
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Naw wrote:
 Mr.Omega wrote:
I rarely see Pathfinders, which Tau players claim is the only reason the Riptide even works, ever get used.


This! "Just target the pathfinders and they become next to useless."


If they don't have pathfinders, they will either have other sources of markerlights or other force multipliers in the list. Markerlight drones (generaly paired with either a commander suit or missile pod crisis team), tetras (squishy, but mobile), and skyrays (cost ineffective, but tough and skyfire) are the other common sources of markerlights you will run in to. Other options are the buff commander (very cost ineffective but a pain to kill due to LOS! to the riptide), ECPA (farsight enclave) and divination psykers (generally farseers, but you do see tigi or mantis libis sometimes). A bs3 large blast will hit its target less then half the time without any buffs, it does not ignore cover or invun saves, and there is a 1/6 chance that it does absolutely nothing on top of that due to overheat. Kill the force multipliers, and the army becomes substantially less effective, not just the riptides.

If your list can't remove the force multipliers in a tau list (buff commander excepted), then its going to have problems with other competitively minded lists, especially daemons. The fact that the tau casual and competitive lists share many features is unfortunate for tau players, but beyond choosing not to play against them there is not much that can be done about it.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre






Onerios wrote:
Naw wrote:
 Mr.Omega wrote:
I rarely see Pathfinders, which Tau players claim is the only reason the Riptide even works, ever get used.


This! "Just target the pathfinders and they become next to useless."


If they don't have pathfinders, they will either have other sources of markerlights or other force multipliers in the list. Markerlight drones (generaly paired with either a commander suit or missile pod crisis team), tetras (squishy, but mobile), and skyrays (cost ineffective, but tough and skyfire) are the other common sources of markerlights you will run in to. Other options are the buff commander (very cost ineffective but a pain to kill due to LOS! to the riptide), ECPA (farsight enclave) and divination psykers (generally farseers, but you do see tigi or mantis libis sometimes). A bs3 large blast will hit its target less then half the time without any buffs, it does not ignore cover or invun saves, and there is a 1/6 chance that it does absolutely nothing on top of that due to overheat. Kill the force multipliers, and the army becomes substantially less effective, not just the riptides.

If your list can't remove the force multipliers in a tau list (buff commander excepted), then its going to have problems with other competitively minded lists, especially daemons. The fact that the tau casual and competitive lists share many features is unfortunate for tau players, but beyond choosing not to play against them there is not much that can be done about it.


Exactly, nice summary. I covered all of this in much greater depth in my recent thread "Riptide: My Take". Much of this is painfully obvious to those to play Riptides, or those who are competitive enough to have practiced againt them with sound tactics, for those who play less, bring lists with less potential, or are simply arm chair generals it is much less so.

40k is 100% Skill +/- 50% Luck

Zagman's 40k Balance Errata 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





California

I don't have a problem with competitive players/ lists. I'll play anything once. If we already established that I don't have the tools to deal with your list and your unwilling to dum it down then there really isn't much point to playing you further. Has nothing to do with sportsmanship and everything to do with wanting to have a fun game.

You can have a competitive game with lower tear list if your opponent has a similar list. It doesn't always have to be tournament level.

as a codex space marine player can you simply ignore them or is that not really possible.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre






 wowsmash wrote:
I don't have a problem with competitive players/ lists. I'll play anything once. If we already established that I don't have the tools to deal with your list and your unwilling to dum it down then there really isn't much point to playing you further. Has nothing to do with sportsmanship and everything to do with wanting to have a fun game.

You can have a competitive game with lower tear list if your opponent has a similar list. It doesn't always have to be tournament level.

as a codex space marine player can you simply ignore them or is that not really possible.


Well, the biggest stomping my GT Riptide list took was at the hands of SM....

You don't have a problem playing a competitive player/list, yet if they beat you you aren't willing to change your list or adapt your tactics, or even try again? That is poor sportsmanship, yet you expect your opponent to weaken their list to fit your build. That is a very casual attitude, and you need to make sure you opponent wants to play casually.

40k is 100% Skill +/- 50% Luck

Zagman's 40k Balance Errata 
   
Made in us
Slippery Ultramarine Scout Biker





Its about effective communication, we aren't all playing the same game. When two players differ too much on the competitive/casual continuum is when we have major problems. Find opponents with the same expectations as you and you are just fine.


Players shouldn't have to guess or match expectations just so they can play a damn game of 40k, i think it's pretty wrong when a game's balance is so poor that "we aren't all playing the same game" is the case. Everyone should be playing 40k not what ever back asswards version you perceive, what's even more infuriating is when players try to justify such clearly broken units and rules and just assume that the other player is lacking in tactics. Furthermore, multiple S8 AP2 72" large blasts followed up with 4 tl s5 ap5 30" is not "low damage" in any means what so ever, to suggest so is truly delusional.

Guardians of the Temple 2000 points
GorStomp's Brutal Boyz: 2000 points 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





 earlofburger wrote:
Its about effective communication, we aren't all playing the same game. When two players differ too much on the competitive/casual continuum is when we have major problems. Find opponents with the same expectations as you and you are just fine.


Players shouldn't have to guess or match expectations just so they can play a damn game of 40k, i think it's pretty wrong when a game's balance is so poor that "we aren't all playing the same game" is the case. Everyone should be playing 40k not what ever back asswards version you perceive, what's even more infuriating is when players try to justify such clearly broken units and rules and just assume that the other player is lacking in tactics. Furthermore, multiple S8 AP2 72" large blasts followed up with 4 tl s5 ap5 30" is not "low damage" in any means what so ever, to suggest so is truly delusional.

There will always be people who power game or twist the rules, just like there will always be people in magic who have a deck that has turn 1(or 0) win or some Power 9. In a normal game, there is no restrictions on what you are limited to, but as long as both people know what they are getting in to, it is fine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/15 21:57:38


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





California

 Zagman wrote:
 wowsmash wrote:
I don't have a problem with competitive players/ lists. I'll play anything once. If we already established that I don't have the tools to deal with your list and your unwilling to dum it down then there really isn't much point to playing you further. Has nothing to do with sportsmanship and everything to do with wanting to have a fun game.

You can have a competitive game with lower tear list if your opponent has a similar list. It doesn't always have to be tournament level.

as a codex space marine player can you simply ignore them or is that not really possible.


Well, the biggest stomping my GT Riptide list took was at the hands of SM....

You don't have a problem playing a competitive player/list, yet if they beat you you aren't willing to change your list or adapt your tactics, or even try again? That is poor sportsmanship, yet you expect your opponent to weaken their list to fit your build. That is a very casual attitude, and you need to make sure you opponent wants to play casually.


I have a small space marine army. My collection grows slowly. I will have the same models this week as I did last week. Just becuase my codex has options doesn't mean I'll own all of those options "yet".

If I don't have the model's to deal with your list why bother playing? Unless you want to be more reasonable there doesn't seem to be much point.
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




Then call me mr Casual. I do not field similar lists one game after another. I am also not willing to pay big bucks to counter some spam list. Luckily I do not have to, either.

I do question your motives of fielding 2+ Riptides. If they are not cost efficient, why do you have them in your list??
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre






 earlofburger wrote:
Its about effective communication, we aren't all playing the same game. When two players differ too much on the competitive/casual continuum is when we have major problems. Find opponents with the same expectations as you and you are just fine.


Players shouldn't have to guess or match expectations just so they can play a damn game of 40k, i think it's pretty wrong when a game's balance is so poor that "we aren't all playing the same game" is the case. Everyone should be playing 40k not what ever back asswards version you perceive, what's even more infuriating is when players try to justify such clearly broken units and rules and just assume that the other player is lacking in tactics. Furthermore, multiple S8 AP2 72" large blasts followed up with 4 tl s5 ap5 30" is not "low damage" in any means what so ever, to suggest so is truly delusional.


*Hands over a Kleenex*

Every, and I mean every Wargame has balance issues. And the bigger the game, the more factions, the more units, the more rules, the more difficult it becomes to balance. 40k is the biggest I've seen, which means balance issues are inherent.

"Players shouldn't have to guess or match expectations just so they can play a damn game of 40k." See, here you go against, on your Soap Box believing you know what a game of 40k is. You don't, and it is different for all of us. We all have certain expecations for what kind of a game we want. There are Ultra Casual, Casual, Semi Competitive, Competitive, and Ultra Competitive. "Fluffy" lists can fall just about anywhere on that continuum. "When players try to justify such clearly broken units and rules" See, here you again, knowing everything. Unfortunately, players are fielding things they are allowed to under the Rules, those things which govern how we play. When following them, we are playing 40k, not the biased version you think everyone else should be playing. "assume that the other player is lacking in tactic." Well, there are counters for EVERY list and "broken" combination out there. Every army may not have the answer, but they are out there. The Riptide has many counters, and through the use of Tactics, good list building, and good play can be beaten. You talk as if fielding multiple Riptides is an autowin, this is far far from the case.

Players absolutley have to match expectation. There are some downright bad potential combinations in the multitude of codices out there and some damn good ones. You cannot expect people to freely choose from good and bad choices with inherently imbalanced pools to choose from in an game with complex variables and expect everyone to be playing the same game. I'm not the delusional one here. So, please get off your high horse and accept, like I have, that not all of us are playing the same game. By discussing expectation and desires with your opponent before you play them, you can bring lists which help you both satisfy and fulfill your expectations. I generally play semicompetitive to Ultra Competitive depending on my opponents and venue, maybe you need to find more Casual opponents and avoid those who favor a more competitive game. And if you think you are a competitive player and want to play competitive 40k, then you need to learn to play a much stronger game and take stronger lists or be continually disappointed by your inferior performance. Match expectations with your opponent and both of you will have a more enjoyable game. Because of limited time during the week, I play ~75% of my games of 40k in Tournaments. When given the chance to play outside of tournaments I often choose from the pool of players that are capable of higher level play. I have learned not to play people who want to play on your level because they fail to meet my expectations, and playing on their level leads to a less enjoyable experience and practice that is of limited use. I derive no enjoyment from Baby Seal Clubbing Ultra Casual players, but have no problem bringing lists at the casual level for beginner players or very friendly games if that is what I am after.

Its as simple as communicate and match expectations to maximize enjoyment, who is being unreasonable here? Me or you?

Firstly, you assume every Riptide has the IA, that is not the case. You assume that they have multiple ones. You fail to mention just how many points this costs. You fail to mention that it has a 1/6 chance of failing to fire. You fail to mention being BS3 and having a huge chance of scattering. This, deals a relatively low amount of Damage. Fact. You also assume every Riptide has the SMS, which is not the case and interestingly enough will often deal more reliable damage then the Overcharged Ion Accelerator. Delusional? Nope, just informed and experienced. Please, limit your assumptions(ASS*U*ME), you cannot assume that the Riptide always fires, always hits, and always is equipped a certain way without mentioning the downsides. Yes, the Riptide is a very strong unit, but its not as crazy as you are making it out to be.


40k is 100% Skill +/- 50% Luck

Zagman's 40k Balance Errata 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Zagman wrote:
You don't have a problem playing a competitive player/list, yet if they beat you you aren't willing to change your list or adapt your tactics, or even try again? That is poor sportsmanship, yet you expect your opponent to weaken their list to fit your build. That is a very casual attitude, and you need to make sure you opponent wants to play casually.


Casual players make up the majority of the gamers. And would you tone down your list if you kept tabling your opponent? This is not an arms race.
   
Made in ca
Sister Vastly Superior



canada

I have to admit 2 riptides are the most I haver faced but I play sisters and have never lost to Tau this edition!
Between. Scouting melta dominions and multiple exorcists they die! Plus the few wounds they always seem to do to themselves.

They say you never appreciate what you have until it is gone. I fear that isn't true for your mind. 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre






 wowsmash wrote:
 Zagman wrote:
 wowsmash wrote:
I don't have a problem with competitive players/ lists. I'll play anything once. If we already established that I don't have the tools to deal with your list and your unwilling to dum it down then there really isn't much point to playing you further. Has nothing to do with sportsmanship and everything to do with wanting to have a fun game.

You can have a competitive game with lower tear list if your opponent has a similar list. It doesn't always have to be tournament level.

as a codex space marine player can you simply ignore them or is that not really possible.


Well, the biggest stomping my GT Riptide list took was at the hands of SM....

You don't have a problem playing a competitive player/list, yet if they beat you you aren't willing to change your list or adapt your tactics, or even try again? That is poor sportsmanship, yet you expect your opponent to weaken their list to fit your build. That is a very casual attitude, and you need to make sure you opponent wants to play casually.


I have a small space marine army. My collection grows slowly. I will have the same models this week as I did last week. Just becuase my codex has options doesn't mean I'll own all of those options "yet".

If I don't have the model's to deal with your list why bother playing? Unless you want to be more reasonable there doesn't seem to be much point.


You have options.

Match Expectations with your opponent, as him to bring a toned down list to play at your level.
Play at a known disadvantage and try to make the most of what you have.
Collect a larger army.

Just don't complain about his army if you haven't discussed your game expectations with him. Outright refusing to play without communication is poor sportsmanship. If he refuses to change his list to meet your expectations, then you two are not compatible opponents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Naw wrote:
 Zagman wrote:
You don't have a problem playing a competitive player/list, yet if they beat you you aren't willing to change your list or adapt your tactics, or even try again? That is poor sportsmanship, yet you expect your opponent to weaken their list to fit your build. That is a very casual attitude, and you need to make sure you opponent wants to play casually.


Casual players make up the majority of the gamers. And would you tone down your list if you kept tabling your opponent? This is not an arms race.


I play ~75% of my games in a competitive or tougher setting. Most of my other games are the setting and expectation. If I am playing a new player, or someone who cannot play at that level, I do tone down my lists and play a softer game for mutual enjoyment. A win with two evenly matched players and lists is always the best. I have no need to club baby seals outside of the first game of tournaments.

As to tabling opponents, I have only tabled two opponents in competitive play with my Dualtide/Triptide lists and have yet to be tabled myself. Three times I've been close with my Tau, once versus DE, once versus Daemons, and once versus SM.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/15 22:30:33


40k is 100% Skill +/- 50% Luck

Zagman's 40k Balance Errata 
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





UK

 Zagman wrote:
 earlofburger wrote:
Its about effective communication, we aren't all playing the same game. When two players differ too much on the competitive/casual continuum is when we have major problems. Find opponents with the same expectations as you and you are just fine.


Players shouldn't have to guess or match expectations just so they can play a damn game of 40k, i think it's pretty wrong when a game's balance is so poor that "we aren't all playing the same game" is the case. Everyone should be playing 40k not what ever back asswards version you perceive, what's even more infuriating is when players try to justify such clearly broken units and rules and just assume that the other player is lacking in tactics. Furthermore, multiple S8 AP2 72" large blasts followed up with 4 tl s5 ap5 30" is not "low damage" in any means what so ever, to suggest so is truly delusional.


*Hands over a Kleenex*

Every, and I mean every Wargame has balance issues. And the bigger the game, the more factions, the more units, the more rules, the more difficult it becomes to balance. 40k is the biggest I've seen, which means balance issues are inherent.

"Players shouldn't have to guess or match expectations just so they can play a damn game of 40k." See, here you go against, on your Soap Box believing you know what a game of 40k is. You don't, and it is different for all of us. We all have certain expecations for what kind of a game we want. There are Ultra Casual, Casual, Semi Competitive, Competitive, and Ultra Competitive. "Fluffy" lists can fall just about anywhere on that continuum. "When players try to justify such clearly broken units and rules" See, here you again, knowing everything. Unfortunately, players are fielding things they are allowed to under the Rules, those things which govern how we play. When following them, we are playing 40k, not the biased version you think everyone else should be playing. "assume that the other player is lacking in tactic." Well, there are counters for EVERY list and "broken" combination out there. Every army may not have the answer, but they are out there. The Riptide has many counters, and through the use of Tactics, good list building, and good play can be beaten. You talk as if fielding multiple Riptides is an autowin, this is far far from the case.

Players absolutley have to match expectation. There are some downright bad potential combinations in the multitude of codices out there and some damn good ones. You cannot expect people to freely choose from good and bad choices with inherently imbalanced pools to choose from in an game with complex variables and expect everyone to be playing the same game. I'm not the delusional one here. So, please get off your high horse and accept, like I have, that not all of us are playing the same game. By discussing expectation and desires with your opponent before you play them, you can bring lists which help you both satisfy and fulfill your expectations. I generally play semicompetitive to Ultra Competitive depending on my opponents and venue, maybe you need to find more Casual opponents and avoid those who favor a more competitive game. And if you think you are a competitive player and want to play competitive 40k, then you need to learn to play a much stronger game and take stronger lists or be continually disappointed by your inferior performance. Match expectations with your opponent and both of you will have a more enjoyable game. Because of limited time during the week, I play ~75% of my games of 40k in Tournaments. When given the chance to play outside of tournaments I often choose from the pool of players that are capable of higher level play. I have learned not to play people who want to play on your level because they fail to meet my expectations, and playing on their level leads to a less enjoyable experience and practice that is of limited use. I derive no enjoyment from Baby Seal Clubbing Ultra Casual players, but have no problem bringing lists at the casual level for beginner players or very friendly games if that is what I am after.

Its as simple as communicate and match expectations to maximize enjoyment, who is being unreasonable here? Me or you?

Firstly, you assume every Riptide has the IA, that is not the case. You assume that they have multiple ones. You fail to mention just how many points this costs. You fail to mention that it has a 1/6 chance of failing to fire. You fail to mention being BS3 and having a huge chance of scattering. This, deals a relatively low amount of Damage. Fact. You also assume every Riptide has the SMS, which is not the case and interestingly enough will often deal more reliable damage then the Overcharged Ion Accelerator. Delusional? Nope, just informed and experienced. Please, limit your assumptions(ASS*U*ME), you cannot assume that the Riptide always fires, always hits, and always is equipped a certain way without mentioning the downsides. Yes, the Riptide is a very strong unit, but its not as crazy as you are making it out to be.



Nice. Ad Hominem.

You fail to mention just how many points this costs.


Answer: 3 Fifths of jacks**t.

185 points for a BS3 S8 AP2 pie plate dispenser with infinite range and immunity to being instant killed by most heavy weaponry before you even consider the other features is absolutely drop-dead pants-on-head level stupid.

You fail to mention that it has a 1/6 chance of failing to fire.


Ah yes, failing to fire the gun once per game completely balances out everything.

You fail to mention being BS3 and having a huge chance of scattering


Big deal. Its the sheer amount of firepower it churns out for its asinine cost is the issue here; when it connects you're still boned.

This, deals a relatively low amount of Damage. Fact.


You have not supplied ample evidence to make this claim, and to call it fact after such a handwave suggestion is just obnoxious. Its a S8 AP2 pie plate. In no world is that not an effective weapon. Even a BS1 AP2 pie plate auto-hits 33% of the time.

Compared to weapons of other races and the availability of such weapons, it is incredibly valuable; unbelievably so when you consider it effectively has infinite range.

You also assume every Riptide has the SMS, which is not the case and interestingly enough will often deal more reliable damage then the Overcharged Ion Accelerator.


Having a TL 18'' Meltagun or TL Plasma Gun is hardly a consolation in the place of SMS.

you cannot assume that the Riptide always fires, always hits


The problem is that it does, will and usually hits, I mean have you even heard of Murphy's Law? You cannot afford to ignore it. There is less than a 20% chance of not being able to fire it. There is at least a 40-50% chance of hitting, and that's not factoring in marker lights (but I'm sure you'll just ramble on about how that won't always happen, because that is a completely legitimate train of thought) or Buffmanders, and that with the Riptide's nature as being almost unkillable even low accuracy doesn't really matter because you'll probably get to fire multiple times.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/16 00:55:45


 
   
Made in us
Slippery Ultramarine Scout Biker





Are there any lists for orks that give them even a miniscule chance of combating cheese tides? I think BW might have a chance to make it to the gunline but not sure, trucks would get gun down way to quick and KKF hordes aren't resilient enough to make it to the enemy. Perhaps full on biker army? And no it's not possible to just simply ignore riptides like many suggest.

@Mr.Omega: nailed it, brace yourself for angry zagman babble

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/16 03:25:32


Guardians of the Temple 2000 points
GorStomp's Brutal Boyz: 2000 points 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer



Wow.

Way to sum up all my thoughts and more in one post.

Currently ongoing projects:
Horus Heresy Alpha Legion
Tyranids  
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Canada

Force them to make saves, think of them as a squad of a squad of Terminators with T6. I swear the number of times I've gotten 3 wounds on a Riptide and they've failed 1 makes them way less intimidating than a lot of people give them credit for.

Also, Riptides aren't amazing. Riptides with a Buffmander.. yes that is a problem, but that's only as tough as the shield drones keeping them afloat, and how do you get rid of them?

Same way you get rid of a Riptide, weight of fire.

 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre






 Mr.Omega wrote:

Nice. Ad Hominem.

You fail to mention just how many points this costs.


Answer: 3 Fifths of jacks**t.

185 points for a BS3 S8 AP2 pie plate dispenser with infinite range and immunity to being instant killed by most heavy weaponry before you even consider the other features is absolutely drop-dead pants-on-head level stupid.

You fail to mention that it has a 1/6 chance of failing to fire.


Ah yes, failing to fire the gun once per game completely balances out everything.

You fail to mention being BS3 and having a huge chance of scattering


Big deal. Its the sheer amount of firepower it churns out for its asinine cost is the issue here; when it connects you're still boned.

This, deals a relatively low amount of Damage. Fact.


You have not supplied ample evidence to make this claim, and to call it fact after such a handwave suggestion is just obnoxious. Its a S8 AP2 pie plate. In no world is that not an effective weapon. Even a BS1 AP2 pie plate auto-hits 33% of the time.

Compared to weapons of other races and the availability of such weapons, it is incredibly valuable; unbelievably so when you consider it effectively has infinite range.

You also assume every Riptide has the SMS, which is not the case and interestingly enough will often deal more reliable damage then the Overcharged Ion Accelerator.


Having a TL 18'' Meltagun or TL Plasma Gun is hardly a consolation in the place of SMS.

you cannot assume that the Riptide always fires, always hits


The problem is that it does, will and usually hits, I mean have you even heard of Murphy's Law? You cannot afford to ignore it. There is less than a 20% chance of not being able to fire it. There is at least a 40-50% chance of hitting, and that's not factoring in marker lights (but I'm sure you'll just ramble on about how that won't always happen, because that is a completely legitimate train of thought) or Buffmanders, and that with the Riptide's nature as being almost unkillable even low accuracy doesn't really matter because you'll probably get to fire multiple times.


I suppose I'll bite. Firstly, here is the entire thread I made on the Riptide. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/562118.page

Points Cost. A Riptide is usually ~200pts, possibly more. Support elements are much much more as well, but you assert they don't need them, so we'll forgo support elements for now.

Low Damage Output of the IA Riptide. Gets Hot S8 AP2 Large Blast at BS3

17% chance of failing to fire
34% chance to Stick its Target.
48% chance to scatter at least one inch. 40% chance it scatters at least 3". 15% chance it scatters at least 6".

You keep crying about its range and how devastating the Overcharged Ion Accelerator is, well, compare it to the Subpar LRBT. Vs most Targets the LRBT deals ~15% more damage than the Riptide for ~75% the cost which makes it ~150% as effective vs anything that does not have a 2+ save as a long ranged weapon. They have identical range, strength, and the LRBT is more reliable thanks to not Getting Hot and being Ordinance against Vehicles. The IA Riptide is obviously better against 2+ saves, but that is it. Did I mention the LRBT is not considered a good unit nor known for its firepower?

For kicks, we'll assume over the course of a six turn game you get to shoot at prime targets, terminators, and that you don't scatter off ever. Every hit hits 3 Terminators, firing 5 turns is 15 hits, 12.5 Wounds, 8.3 Unsaved Wounds. 332pts in Terminators or a 179% its value assuming a perfect record shooting, because that is entirely realistic. Vs Marines with a massive four hits per Large Blast its 233pts in Marines without cover, 155 with. Under real game conditions its often times much much less. Opponents aren't stupid, you don't get a chance to nuke clustered up high point units very often, and will mitigate the damage accordingly.

For Comparison a Dual Plasma suit in Rapid Fire range would kill 266pt of Terminator per game or 511% of its value, 133pts outside of Rapid Fire Range. 140 pts of marines, 93 with cover etc.

And damn, just wait until its Tyranids and Orks that cost under 10pts each swarming towards the Riptide to tie him up indefinitely and eventually sweep him. Things are about to get a lot worse for the Riptide, the Meta will shift away from Elite armies as Tyranids, IG, and Orks hit by first half of 2014 greatly reducing the viability of high number Riptide builds.

There are a ton of units which can pump out much much more damage per turn. The Riptide does not have a High Damage per turn for its Points, what it does have is high Durability for its cost.

Damn! That looked like math, and logic, I can't possibly have written it, because you know it was a legitimate train of thought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 earlofburger wrote:
Are there any lists for orks that give them even a miniscule chance of combating cheese tides? I think BW might have a chance to make it to the gunline but not sure, trucks would get gun down way to quick and KKF hordes aren't resilient enough to make it to the enemy. Perhaps full on biker army? And no it's not possible to just simply ignore riptides like many suggest.

@Mr.Omega: nailed it, brace yourself for angry zagman babble


Battlewagons are the Orks best answer for Tau in general. Disembark and multicharge for carnage. Not perfect, but for a 4th edition books its the best you've got. Tau struggle with AV14, our only options are DSing Fusion Suits which means less Riptides for non Farsight Enclave lists, or a the single shot LongStrike Hammerhead. Possibly Twin Linked Fusion Blasters on the Riptides, but if you are within 9" of a Riptide, you are already there. Tau have no reliable way of stopping multiple Battle Wagons from breaching their lines. Sprinkle in some Nob Bikers for threat saturation and you are there. Lootas are still great, but watch out for suppored IA Riptides. Use max coherency, cover, and LOS blocking terrain to your advantage. Target support elements first if possible.

And angry babble? I'm just not a fan of people spouting bad internet wisdom as fact.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/16 04:02:53


40k is 100% Skill +/- 50% Luck

Zagman's 40k Balance Errata 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: