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40K - Blackmoor, get a tissue cause if this is true, you're going to shed some tears, bud (FW)!  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





If GW came down and said FW was in fact official, I don't think it would change much in actual practice. There's enough people against it that the normal tournaments would just become 40K-Restricted, and the FW stuff would just be 40K-Open. The balance on attendance might shift a little, but I don't expect much.

At the end of the day it will just stop the arguments, but not change the practical reality.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Steelcity

 CaulynDarr wrote:
If GW came down and said FW was in fact official, I don't think it would change much in actual practice. There's enough people against it that the normal tournaments would just become 40K-Restricted, and the FW stuff would just be 40K-Open. The balance on attendance might shift a little, but I don't expect much.

At the end of the day it will just stop the arguments, but not change the practical reality.


Exactly, the allowance of FW currently is just preference by TOs. Some explain it away by saying it's "Not official" or it is "official" but it's 100% up to them. Most tournaments use rules not found in the main book, so they are already deviating from the core rules because of preferences.


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Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Las Vegas, NV

@Jouglas and Blackmoor

The teasing is in good fun, I sense a disturbance in the force, maybe you two should take a time out for a sec to put things back in perspective...and I will stop egging thing on! haha, you're both top notch players and can win with or without FW or whatever. Everyone knows that.

@Thread

Yeah, the game is changing dramatically right now it is so incredibly complex and there are so many more rules and rules interactions coming down the pipe at us with supplements and such that there is no way anyone will stay on top of it all.

We do this for a living and we can barely, barely keep up with the rules. There's no way a casual gamer can hope to.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.

 Reecius wrote:
@Jouglas and Blackmoor

The teasing is in good fun, I sense a disturbance in the force, maybe you two should take a time out for a sec to put things back in perspective...and I will stop egging thing on! haha, you're both top notch players and can win with or without FW or whatever. Everyone knows that.



Nah, I was just busting Doug's balls.


 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





The House that Peterbilt

As a TO I will be much more receptive to allowing FW once they get an official list of units, 40k/apoc type and the book(s) where their most updated rules are at.

I just finished running a 50 man (44 actual attendees) that we decided to allow FW that had the 40k approved stamp and it was a nightmare to try and ensure the most up-to-date rules were being used. Of the few people that actually used FW (3) two of them had old rules and not the most up to date -- luckily they talked to me first and we were able to get them copies of the rules to use.

That right there is the issue to me. Its not like codexes that have a clear line of valid/invalid and where they are located, crap is all over the place (especially the Marine and CSM stuff).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/01 21:01:41


snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."

Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Eye of Terror

There is a new book out now. If you limit choices to that and Aeronautica it's simple (40k chapter approved only).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/01 21:19:25


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Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Las Vegas, NV

@winterman

Well, that is actually going to be an issue with Codices, too. The digital versions get updated electronically and if someone hasn't updated theirs, you could find yourself in a situation where two people have different versions of the rules, or a different version than the judges or, crappiest of all, a change to the rules mid tournament.

We were talking about on the last FAQ call, how this move to digital is really going to alter the way tournaments are run as the rules come out faster and faster and are changing under our feet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and congrats on the strong turnout for your event!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/01 21:19:51


   
Made in us
Waaagh! Warbiker





San Diego

 Blackmoor wrote:
 Reecius wrote:
@Jouglas and Blackmoor

The teasing is in good fun, I sense a disturbance in the force, maybe you two should take a time out for a sec to put things back in perspective...and I will stop egging thing on! haha, you're both top notch players and can win with or without FW or whatever. Everyone knows that.



Nah, I was just busting Doug's balls.


yeah yeah guys holy crap. If Blackmoor and I had real issue with each other we would talk through IM or over the phone person to person. We hang out at big Events together and like giving each other a hard time. I would have thought the Title of this thread would have been a pretty big hint that this is joking and we will always bring some extra tissues for Blackmoor to all the FW events he goes to, because we care and are thoughtful friends.

I might not be the Word Smith Reecius and some of you guys are and I am definitely not a big forum guy but when I post it's to joke around with friends and / or throw out some information from time to time. And I never joke with someone on here that I haven't already done in person with first.

The only part of my last post people should take seriously is my offer of that bet.

I'm pretty sure we wont let this get to a point where MVBradt has to announce " Blackmoor kills a guy with a Trident at a FW Event". haha How far can you throw a Trident Blackmoor? I just want to know so I can make sure to get some distance if you end up walking into an Event carrying one now that I think of it.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Blackmoor would be too busy camping behind a wall with his fellow paladins to actually expose himself and throw a trident at you. Let's be serious.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Eye of Terror

That was really funny about the Trident... Heh.

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San Diego

MVBrandt wrote:
Blackmoor would be too busy camping behind a wall with his fellow paladins to actually expose himself and throw a trident at you. Let's be serious.


HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA TOUCHÉ!

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Hug it out.

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San Diego

 whitedragon wrote:
Hug it out.


Don't get me started Whitedragon, I'm a hugger.

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-Shrike- wrote:
xruslanx wrote:
Forgeworld will never be accepted, not in the way that their advocates want it to be. Realistically most TOs/gaming groups aren't going to allow lists full of over-powered cheese that most players haven't even heard of to gak all over some newbie.

That and the average gamer would have to have read about twice as many rulebooks as he currently has done - and not just rulebooks that can be flicked through in GW, but expensive FW-only rulebooks. Consequently the contents of these rulebooks will remain obscure and the average gamer will stay clear of FW.


From this post, the impression I get is that you consider FW to be on the same level as non-GW wargames.

Nope, just an optional add-on, like random objectives/terrain. Double FOC at 2000 points is technically compulsary, but most gamers choose to omit it. Technicality really isn't important, this isn't a rules dispute.


Also, does the average gamer really read every codex? Really?

No but he's at least heard of them, and will have a vague idea of what they entail. I've never read a Dark Eldar codex, but I know they are quick and fragile. I've not read the new tau dex but I know they have stupidly powerful shooting. If my opponent pulls out his Bumdinger army, I have no idea what to expect.

The plural of codex is codexes.
 
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





Morgan Hill, CA

 Blackmoor wrote:
 Dugg wrote:
You guys have it all wrong!!! Blackmoor will do a little dance once this happens he will be so HAPPY. Why? Because Blackmoor isn't happy unless he has something to cry about. :p


I guess some people can't win in 6th edition and need the crutch of forge world to do well, and then attack those who can win without it.

True story: After going 4-0 on day 1 of the Adepticon championships I was looking all around for Dugg to make it also into the final 16. Then I remembered that they are not allowing Forge World into the championships, and that he sucks
at 6th edition 40k without it, and it all made sense.


Just for the record if FW buys you wins... I haven't bought enough! I need to spend more money on it apparently. And we ALL know how that will turn out... divorced and alone. Hugging my resin and crying.

At least the UK economy will be stronger.

   
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Waaagh! Warbiker





San Diego

@ cvtuttle - I hug my DKoK every night and tuck them into their little 28mm cots at bed time. If they were good little Army soldiers I might even read them a little Horus Heresy before bedtime.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/01 23:38:53


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xruslanx wrote:
Nope, just an optional add-on, like random objectives/terrain. Double FOC at 2000 points is technically compulsary, but most gamers choose to omit it. Technicality really isn't important, this isn't a rules dispute.


Well, at least you admit that "no FW" is on the same level as "no double FOC" house rules.

And no, I don't think "most gamers" refuse to play against double FOC lists in 2000 point games. I think a loud and obnoxious minority of self-declared "experts" insist that their policy should be law, while the rest of us just use the normal army construction rules provided by GW.

No but he's at least heard of them, and will have a vague idea of what they entail. I've never read a Dark Eldar codex, but I know they are quick and fragile. I've not read the new tau dex but I know they have stupidly powerful shooting. If my opponent pulls out his Bumdinger army, I have no idea what to expect.


Sorry, but like everything you post, that's just ridiculous. If you know what IG does (hordes of infantry, awesome heavy support) you know what DKoK do. If you know what flyerspam IG does you know what Elysians do. If you know what Necrons do you know what the FW Necron list does. None of the FW army lists diverge so far from the "parent" codex that you won't know even the basic one-sentence summary of what the army does, even if you just assume it plays exactly like the "parent" codex.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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San Diego

 TimmyMWD wrote:
My understanding has always been that the forgeworld units are not as vetted or playtested as the mainstream GW counterparts. That is partially what contributes to some of the issues with the rules that forgeworld releases.


This might have been true in the past but if it is now I sure hope the person responsible for letting the re-rolling 2+(i) ScreamerStar w/ FateWeaver into their last Codex was FIRED the day that codex was printed. If not and this is a sign that the new forgeworld books are going to be even more OP than that I'm going to start saving my money now. As long as they have cool models to go along with those OP rules that is.

Truth is, every new codex seems to break something and add something. The absurdities of these new codices have really watered down the absurdities of forgeworld IMO. Sure the balancing issues are COMPLETELY Games-Workshops fault and I think we would be lying to ourselves if we thought this is all going to magically change any time soon. We just have to roll with the punches, have some fun and enjoy the game how ever we can. I find playing with good friends and having some adult beverages helps smooth over the imbalances of the game myself.

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Death-Dealing Devastator



Essex, UK

It's only a handful of things that break FW. Most of it is overcosted and underpowered.

It is pretty much exclusively IG guns that make FW unpleasant to play against.
   
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Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine





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Ok I will bite, when I played in 5th before I had any IA: Apoc books I used to think FW was OP but as I found a way to get more income I did buy IA: Apoc and when looking at the rules, they did not seem too bad and the models looked really cool, and so I asked around my FLGS if I could use said units and everyone agreed so, so I did and you know what? No one has yet cried OP with the current IA Apoc rules.

Blackmoor, now I really don't know your problem with FW, I do not know you as you do not know me, so I'm just being curious but do you have the Current 6th ed. IA Apoc rules? to me they seem powerful but not the batman/bane spine breaking moment that would break the edition (unlike the current 6th ed. codex's have done imo). It seems to me (as I'm reading the thread) your problem is more with the interceptor turrets more than FW as I am reading through, which makes me wonder but how many people bring flyers to Tournaments now? the only few I see happening is that the usual CSM Helldrake spam and Vendettas all over the place, in which case how are the turrets different to, say Tau for example? Tau have a good amount of AA and their official yet the Turrets do the same role and perform similar synergy as the Tau army?

To me I like FW I have a CSM contemptor which I do like very much, I am also wanting to convert two units from GW into FW units and also going to purchase a mega-dredd.

To me FW sort of fixes those nooks and cranny's that some older and codex's have, for example if someone were to field a full unit of Khorne Berserker's but wanted a good delivery system for it, he or she could then go out and purchase a Spartan Assault tank into his or her list meaning that squad that had the problem of a delivery system now has a good solid way of getting to the other side keeping the squad intact, obviously this is just an simulation but, to me looking at the units within the book it does add a few units to boost those army's that are in need of an update or ones that did get a bit rather trodden over, but this is just my opinion, was wondering on your thoughts, Blackmoor why you don't like FW?

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 Grey Templar wrote:

Orks don't hate, they just love. Love to fight everyone.


Whatever you use.. It's Cheesy, broken and OP  
   
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San Jose, CA

I think FW is way OP and should be banned not only from tournament games, but from anything other than Apoc!


** So says the guy who ran a LR Achilles, 1 LR Helios and 1 LR Prometheus in a tournament. **




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Essex, UK

Oh yeah and the Tau R'Varna Riptide.... Jesus Christ
   
Made in ca
Executing Exarch






AlexRae wrote:
It's only a handful of things that break FW. Most of it is overcosted and underpowered.

It is pretty much exclusively IG guns that make FW unpleasant to play against.


Its more of lack of knowledge and requiring to buy a $90 book to "know your enemy" in addition to the $60 dex that irks me. Aside from that the biggest problem with forgeworld is that their update system sucks, they are either behind or still using rules from 2 edition ago that no longer have an effect in game.

Personally I think FW should just have all the datasheets on their website to download for free, and they can update them as they go without having to waste the paper. Introduce new units via the books and then release the datasheet a few months later, do updates once or twice a year and they still sell models. This way 99% of people in the hobby have access to it and it stays current with 40k and GWs growing insanity.

Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
 
   
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Bounding Assault Marine




East Bay, USA

Did you guys see what Aaron Dembski-Bowden was saying over at Faeit about BL, FW and GW?

He basically laid it out that FW has always been considered a core part of the game by GW and that BL has always been cannon it's just that people don't accept it for whatever reason.

He said they're only changing the wording in the books now because people mistakenly took the polite wording in the FW books to be official policy but that everyone's been missing the point.

Food for thought and fuel on the fire!


 
   
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Oh yeah and the Tau R'Varna Riptide.... Jesus Christ


Yes, I think it may very well be Him. The Second Coming in a battlesuit.
   
Made in us
Waaagh! Warbiker





San Diego

People will always fear and point the finger at what they don't know or understand.

I have been allowing FW in the league I run down here for ever. I would say a few weeks after they first printed those 40k approved stamps in the GW printed IA books.

I also had a Double Force Org League shortly after 6th came out and everyone, on the net, was worried and complaining about it and everyone in that league had a blast. I even told the guys to try to bring the craziest "broken/cheese" they could think of. One guys brought something like 13 IG flyers, a couple IA flyers as well. It was fun watching him try to even get them to not crash into each other and get in their own way.I think he went 3-2-1 at the end.

I would say 80% of the guys, we average 20-24 players per league, that "tried" to bring the DFO power lists ended up shooting themselves in the foot with a list that didn't have the tools to win the game.

Lately in our league down here almost all gripping has been over Tau, Seer Council and Demons lately. No one is crying about FW. Unless they have to play me for a make-up game and I bring the pain, but they did that with me WAY before FW. Just don't miss a league game Guys.

p.s. I have been play testing a list with 0 FW and it's on average cleaning 50-65% (percentage figured by list points) of Tau, Eldar, Taudar lists in my first turn and close to that with other Meta lists. It's crazy. It needs a few tweaks to be tournament ready but it's another crazy anti-meta Dugg list.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/04 01:48:18


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On the Internet

 Reecius wrote:
Don't rain on my parade, pretre! hahaha

But seriously, we were told this exact same thing by someone who legitimately knows what they're talking about and who also predicted a ton of stuff, all of which has come to pass. We'll see of course, but I think there is a lot of veracity to this. BL is producing rules now, their books are cannon, FW is becoming more "official.' It makes sense for GW to consolidate everything to cross promote and encourage more sales of their various brands and products.

Personally I dislike the term "official" being thrown around. Of course FW is "official" it's a real GW PLC product line. The arguement really falls to how "legal" one wants to treat it as being (house rules, not house rules, ect).

The thing is that the rulebook already supports altering the army list (which FW does by adding new units/rules/options/ect), or even making your own. Of course that is apparently not good enough for some as it doesn't explicitly state FW, but really when one talks about tournaments does it really matter what ruleset one uses? I mean if all the big tourneys got together and wrote a 5.5Ed ruleset and used that it'd be just as legal as anything else. Just like comp, or painting standards (or a lack of) or whatever you choose to add or remove from your tournament requirements.

So really in the context of FW and tournaments: does it matter what GW does? It's your event, run it how you like!
   
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Las Vegas, NV

@ClockwordZion

Well said. Play the way you like!

The only issue is figuring out what everyone likes so we can all go to the same events =)

   
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Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.

 happygolucky wrote:
Blackmoor why you don't like FW?


When we talk about FW we are not really talking about the IA: Apoc book (I have not seen the new one yet). What we are talking about is that in the nooks and crannies of almost every IA book there is a broken unit (all imperial btw) and when put together create an broken list. We are not talking about the Chaos Contemptor dread or any other bad units, just the broken ones. Think IG artillery for starters.


 
   
Made in us
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 Reecius wrote:
@ClockwordZion

Well said. Play the way you like!

The only issue is figuring out what everyone likes so we can all go to the same events =)


Heh, as long as we have us big brassy Type A's putting thousands of hours and dollars into the events we run, good luck finding much common ground from event to event :p ... we all think "our way" is the smart/best way to do it.

I do think there's some common formatting components everyone could use without really affecting mission / points / etc., but that's for a different discussion.
   
 
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