Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Reecius wrote:
You're either with Forgeworld....or you're with the terrorists!

Or YOU HATE FREEDOM!

Yes, we've been working this entire time to lure the freedom hating al queda sleepr agents in the minis wargaming community out of hiding, and now we're getting ready to spring our devious trap, muahahaha!

 RiTides wrote:
You can state it however you like, Vaktathi, but it's pretty darn obvious that, given the long-term and widespread NON-acceptance of FW in events, they need to clarify their stance on it if they think it should be included.

Because as clear as it is to you, it isn't as clear to a signifcant percentage of gamers... and given all the logistical challenges of including FW, they need to make it clear that it's worth the trouble.

There's lots of arguments about why FW should be considered fully accepted by default, but it's hard to argue that most gamers consider it that way. With the exception of the west coast nowadays, I think most groups do not consider FW required, but as optional... if GW doesn't think of it that way, they should come out and say so clearly.

Saying they don't need to say it just doesn't ring true given the reality of events and tournaments for the last... decade? More? Most don't allow FW, and the ones that do specifically have to say that they do. That means gamers are not viewing acceptance as default, but as something that needs to be specified. If GW feels differently, they should you know, specify more clearly

I probably just said the same thing 5 ways, but it's an easy fix, and it's up to GW to do it. Saying "they don't need to do anything" isn't looking at the reality on the ground / facts of actual events and mindset of gamers about FW.

I don't debate that there's a need for a clear statement due to the misperceptions surrounding FW, I was just trying to look at it from GW's end. They're not writing a tight, competitive, tournament ruleset suitable for large events where people are paired up and told to go at it, they're writing a narrative framework with which to play with their plastic toy army men between mutually consenting players bringing their toys to a table and tossing stuff around. In the latter scenario, "official" is largely an irrelevant label aside from using competitors products.

If I were making a product with that mindset, the need for such a statement probably wouldn't cross my mind either. It should come to their attention given how often the issue has been raised with GW, but it may just not be something they care about, especially as they run almost no events at all anymore. They should make a statement one way or the other, I agree, but I can see where they haven't given where their mindset for writing rules and lack of involvement in events is coming from.

 whitedragon wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
You're either with Forgeworld....or you're with the terrorists!

Or YOU HATE FREEDOM!

Merica! You can restrict me when you pull my ForgeWorld Resin from my cold dead hands.

 RiTides wrote:
You can state it however you like, Vaktathi, but it's pretty darn obvious that, given the long-term and widespread NON-acceptance of FW in events, they need to clarify their stance on it if they think it should be included.

Because as clear as it is to you, it isn't as clear to a signifcant percentage of gamers... and given all the logistical challenges of including FW, they need to make it clear that it's worth the trouble.

There's lots of arguments about why FW should be considered fully accepted by default, but it's hard to argue that most gamers consider it that way. With the exception of the west coast nowadays, I think most groups do not consider FW required, but as optional... if GW doesn't think of it that way, they should come out and say so clearly.

Saying they don't need to say it just doesn't ring true given the reality of events and tournaments for the last... decade? More? Most don't allow FW, and the ones that do specifically have to say that they do. That means gamers are not viewing acceptance as default, but as something that needs to be specified. If GW feels differently, they should you know, specify more clearly

I probably just said the same thing 5 ways, but it's an easy fix, and it's up to GW to do it. Saying "they don't need to do anything" isn't looking at the reality on the ground / facts of actual events and mindset of gamers about FW.

And there it is...... You consider that those who attend tournaments are the significant percentage of gamers.....by your own words.... In your mind the only gamers who decisions count are the tournament players... Read what you say above....

News flash... Most 40k players never attend a tournament....most 40k players never get a forum account and do not read them, much less post on them... They are unaware we are even having this discussion. They will show up at their meeting areas tomorrow and play, for fun....

What most 40k players do do is buy models and play the game, for fun, not ego.... They are the ocean that GW floats on..

There is a reason GW got out of sponsoring tournaments. I suspect it was they got tired of dealing with a small part of the user base that was not representative of the much larger base but was strident enough to alienate the others.

We have a basic disagreement. You think you represent the majority of 40k players. I think you may represent many 40k tournament players but these are not the same groups. Your represent a tiny subset of 40k players and I suspect your base is shrinking every day.

Where do you think the majority of WAAC players fit in at?

I suspect there is nothing GW can say or print that will change your mind...

That's OK....

As the crowds get smaller and less and less new players come to the "exclusive" tournaments, those organizers, like GW did, will have to make a choice based upon profit.. Without profit there is no next years event.... California organizers have already started to pick up on it.


Time will tell....

 NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
You can state it however you like, Vaktathi, but it's pretty darn obvious that, given the long-term and widespread NON-acceptance of FW in events, they need to clarify their stance on it if they think it should be included.

Because as clear as it is to you, it isn't as clear to a signifcant percentage of gamers... and given all the logistical challenges of including FW, they need to make it clear that it's worth the trouble.

There's lots of arguments about why FW should be considered fully accepted by default, but it's hard to argue that most gamers consider it that way. With the exception of the west coast nowadays, I think most groups do not consider FW required, but as optional... if GW doesn't think of it that way, they should come out and say so clearly.

Saying they don't need to say it just doesn't ring true given the reality of events and tournaments for the last... decade? More? Most don't allow FW, and the ones that do specifically have to say that they do. That means gamers are not viewing acceptance as default, but as something that needs to be specified. If GW feels differently, they should you know, specify more clearly

I probably just said the same thing 5 ways, but it's an easy fix, and it's up to GW to do it. Saying "they don't need to do anything" isn't looking at the reality on the ground / facts of actual events and mindset of gamers about FW.

And there it is...... You consider that those who attend tournaments are the significant percentage of gamers.....by your own words.... In your mind the only gamers who decisions count are the tournament players... Read what you say above....

News flash... Most 40k players never attend a tournament....most 40k players never get a forum account and do not read them, much less post on them... They are unaware we are even having this discussion. They will show up at their meeting areas tomorrow and play, for fun....

What most 40k players do do is buy models and play the game, for fun, not ego.... They are the ocean that GW floats on..

There is a reason GW got out of sponsoring tournaments. I suspect it was they got tired of dealing with a small part of the user base that was not representative of the much larger base but was strident enough to alienate the others.

We have a basic disagreement. You think you represent the majority of 40k players. I think you may represent many 40k tournament players but these are not the same groups. Your represent a tiny subset of 40k players and I suspect your base is shrinking every day.

Where do you think the majority of WAAC players fit in at?

I suspect there is nothing GW can say or print that will change your mind...

That's OK....

As the crowds get smaller and less and less new players come to the "exclusive" tournaments, those organizers, like GW did, will have to make a choice based upon profit.. Without profit there is no next years event.... California organizers have already started to pick up on it.


Time will tell....

He's really not saying what you think he's saying.

People use tournaments as a reference point because they are the largest gatherings of hobbyists available for us to take the "pulse" of the community. Where has there been a gathering of 200 hobbyists that wasn't a tournament?

Tournaments drive and dictate a significant portion of the hobby and meta. Chess has tournaments, checkers, slot car racing, poker, any game that has a winner and loser appeals to the human nature of competition. Deep down inside, people get a warm fuzzy feeling when they can prove superiority over someone else. Some people want to paint better than others, some want to design the best list, some strive to beat others with suboptimal armies and rely on skill.

Yes there are groups that never seek out 40k forums and never will. Some want to keep it a casual beer and pretzel engagement between friends and that's ok. Why do we need to make tournaments appealing to them? It's always nice to have more people at an event, but you can't force a casual hobbyist to enjoy a tournament.

A store owner here once said: if you stay home and wait for things to change, you are part of the problem, not the solution. It seems harsh but it rings true. If a store runs monthly events with 20 regular attendees that are happy, why risk major changes that may cost them regular attendance for the chance of drawing in players who don't normally participate?

Nobody is saying only tournament players and their opinions matter, they are just the most readily available population to survey and analyze.

If you want forgeworld to become widely accepted, you need to follow the west coast example. Support the regular events. Show the stores and TOs you're invested in their growth and success. Then start talking up forgeworld and working it into some events to show people there's nothing to fear.

The hard line that the few voices like Peregrine, vaktathi, and NeedleOfInquiry take about forgeworld and tournaments is more damaging to the case than helpful IMO.

The hard line that the few voices like Peregrine, vaktathi, and NeedleOfInquiry take about forgeworld and tournaments is more damaging to the case than helpful IMO.

I'm sorry but I am not the one to go quietly sit in the back of the bus on command...

I think one play by all of the rules....or one does not....

Cheaters would be an example of those who do not play by the rules...

I see no difference between a guy caught with crooked dice or a modified codex on his IPAD than a tournament organizer who runs a 1999 +1 tournament...to avoid a part of the 2000 point 2x FOC or bans other rules he does not like.

Its all the rules for 40K or it's not... I am not an appeaser.

If you have to house rule your tournament don't call it a 40K tournament.

Call it a "Kinda like 40K Tournament but I threw out the things that were too difficult for me or I did not like"

Nothing wrong with running such a tournament as long as you tell folks right out you can not deal with all the rules for 40k as GW desired, There are those who are comfortable doing that and other WAAC actions.

Many of these tournaments draw large crowds and all the organizers I see do post their modification to the game for the event. But they do modify the game from how GW writes it...

They remind me of other exclusive groups who use to meet and excluded folks who thought differently....They also had a sit in the back mentality for others and saw nothing wrong with it since they were not being asked to sit in the back but were instead asking the other folks to do it. Funny how that mental mechanism works...

Look up Rosa Parks... or better yet...

Parks recalled going to elementary school in Pine Level, where school buses took white students to their new school and black students had to walk to theirs:

"I'd see the bus pass every day... But to me, that was a way of life; we had no choice but to accept what was the custom. The bus was among the first ways I realized there was a black world and a white world.

If this pisses you off you need to ask your self why... If it is a false analogy I should just look stupid in your eyes, if you are pissed off then that is another matter. Words only sting when there's a hint of accuracy about them.

If you see the same people over and over at your events and they are all playing the same armies at some point you have to wodor why that is.... Is it your custom?

 NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

Spoiler:

The hard line that the few voices like Peregrine, vaktathi, and NeedleOfInquiry take about forgeworld and tournaments is more damaging to the case than helpful IMO.

I'm sorry but I am not the one to go quietly sit in the back of the bus on command...

I think one play by all of the rules....or one does not....

Cheaters would be an example of those who do not play by the rules...

I see no difference between a guy caught with crooked dice or a modified codex on his IPAD than a tournament organizer who runs a 1999 +1 tournament...to avoid a part of the 2000 point 2x FOC or bans other rules he does not like.

Its all the rules for 40K or it's not... I am not an appeaser.

If you have to house rule your tournament don't call it a 40K tournament.

Call it a "Kinda like 40K Tournament but I threw out the things that were too difficult for me or I did not like"

Nothing wrong with running such a tournament as long as you tell folks right out you can not deal with all the rules for 40k as GW desired, There are those who are comfortable doing that and other WAAC actions.

Many of these tournaments draw large crowds and all the organizers I see do post their modification to the game for the event. But they do modify the game from how GW writes it...

They remind me of other exclusive groups who use to meet and excluded folks who thought differently....They also had a sit in the back mentality for others and saw nothing wrong with it since they were not being asked to sit in the back but were instead asking the other folks to do it. Funny how that mental mechanism works...

Look up Rosa Parks... or better yet...

Parks recalled going to elementary school in Pine Level, where school buses took white students to their new school and black students had to walk to theirs:

"I'd see the bus pass every day... But to me, that was a way of life; we had no choice but to accept what was the custom. The bus was among the first ways I realized there was a black world and a white world.

If this pisses you off you need to ask your self why... If it is a false analogy I should just look stupid in your eyes, if you are pissed off then that is another matter. Words only sting when there's a hint of accuracy about them.

If you see the same people over and over at your events and they are all playing the same armies at some point you have to wodor why that is.... Is it your custom?

You do.

1) The audacity of comparing the fact that people on the internet think differently then you about what toys are appropriate to play with to civil rights is dumbfounding. Almost impressively so.

2) The reason the people in this thread you're referring to cater to the opinion of tournament players isn't because they believe that "tournament players are the majority". It's because tournament players are the ones who attend the events - the events ARE TOURNAMENTS. Why would they cater to anyone other than the people who are paying to attend their events? If you want to play with FW outside of an event there is literally nothing stopping you, this is a game, outside of sanctioned tournaments you can write your own rules for all most people care.

Man if only there was a forum on Dakka specifically for discussing tournaments. Perhaps we could talk about this there.

 NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

The hard line that the few voices like Peregrine, vaktathi, and NeedleOfInquiry take about forgeworld and tournaments is more damaging to the case than helpful IMO.

I'm sorry but I am not the one to go quietly sit in the back of the bus on command...

I think one play by all of the rules....or one does not....

Cheaters would be an example of those who do not play by the rules...

I see no difference between a guy caught with crooked dice or a modified codex on his IPAD than a tournament organizer who runs a 1999 +1 tournament...to avoid a part of the 2000 point 2x FOC or bans other rules he does not like.

Its all the rules for 40K or it's not... I am not an appeaser.

If you have to house rule your tournament don't call it a 40K tournament.

Call it a "Kinda like 40K Tournament but I threw out the things that were too difficult for me or I did not like"

Nothing wrong with running such a tournament as long as you tell folks right out you can not deal with all the rules for 40k as GW desired, There are those who are comfortable doing that and other WAAC actions.

Many of these tournaments draw large crowds and all the organizers I see do post their modification to the game for the event. But they do modify the game from how GW writes it...

They remind me of other exclusive groups who use to meet and excluded folks who thought differently....They also had a sit in the back mentality for others and saw nothing wrong with it since they were not being asked to sit in the back but were instead asking the other folks to do it. Funny how that mental mechanism works...

Look up Rosa Parks... or better yet...

Parks recalled going to elementary school in Pine Level, where school buses took white students to their new school and black students had to walk to theirs:

"I'd see the bus pass every day... But to me, that was a way of life; we had no choice but to accept what was the custom. The bus was among the first ways I realized there was a black world and a white world.

If this pisses you off you need to ask your self why... If it is a false analogy I should just look stupid in your eyes, if you are pissed off then that is another matter. Words only sting when there's a hint of accuracy about them.

If you see the same people over and over at your events and they are all playing the same armies at some point you have to wodor why that is.... Is it your custom?

Literally one of the dumbest and possible most offensive posts I've ever read....comparing the plight of FW players to the civil rights movement. Trying to shame people into getting your way in a hobby event.

Listen no one is saying you are a horrible person for wanting to play the game a different way...but not every event has the same rules. This is true for plenty of competitions get over it.

Or you know. Put your money (quite literally) where your mouth is...get off you @-- and do something about it. You want to have a tournament using "all" GWs rules go ahead and run one...prove how great it is.

2k double FOC
Random rolled missions every round
Player placed terrain
FW
No time limits on the rounds
No tournament FAQ to answer questions Gw in their infinite wisdom don't answer (cause those are dirty evil house rules)

Legitimately until the hard line guys who want to shame every TO running non-FW events wants to start stepping up and investing their own time and money into running events I see no reason why those of us who do put money in should feel any sympathy.

I should risk losing more money because you want to play with your toys at an event you're not even attending?

Or should I perhaps cater to the desires of my actual customers?

Literally it is a free market system...no one is saying you cannot run these events and if people desire them so badly put the horrible house rule events out of business.

Rosa Park and Forgeworld? Ok. Time to step away from this thread.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I don't debate that there's a need for a clear statement due to the misperceptions surrounding FW...

...

If I were making a product with that mindset, the need for such a statement probably wouldn't cross my mind either. It should come to their attention given how often the issue has been raised with GW, but it may just not be something they care about, especially as they run almost no events at all anymore. They should make a statement one way or the other, I agree...

I think most of us can agree on this, which is why if the rumor were true I'd actually be really happy- GW just needs to come out and clarify one way or the other, given the reality of how people play things currently (and have for many years).

Also, guys, Needle is just going for a reaction- please don't give it to him. Statements like his are not worth responding to, and just feeds the process...

Nice try but not this is not on that scale and that is not what I said. Try reading it again.

The pertinent part is this:

They also had a sit in the back mentality for others and saw nothing wrong with it since they were not being asked to sit in the back but were instead asking the other folks to do it."

It is easy to ask someone else to just wait even if the rules are supposed to be the same if you not the one being asked to wait.

Try empathy sometime...Just change the name of the army..

Image if Tau were banned, would you tell all the Tau players just wait, do not make waves, that's a good player....


This is going to be an official change to the wording. Are you just going to ignore it because you are comfortable with things the way they are?

I think it's amusing that you're railing against people talking about tournament players in a forum named "Tournament Discussions".

What ritides said. Trolls claiming racism-related moral high ground in a discussion about what toys you can use in an event put on at cost for the fun of others = thread death.
http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif

..


well .. we all have different takes on things.

I think we're best served by moving onwards and back to the point and also being somewhat less hyperbolic perhaps ?


Thank you.

But I don't want FW users riding with me at the front of the bus!

As a quick aside if you really want to see the "wild west" of competitive 40k look at the tournament scene in north central Florida.

Both major GTs in this area, BeakyCon3 and Crucible 3 are running FW and 2xFOC.

BeakyCon was last month and featured 2250 point level with 2xFOC. The winner ran a Necron Scarab farm army with 15+ Spyders and Imotek and Coteaz to ensure first turn charges

IMO 2xFOC is much worse from a competitive sense than FW is. FW major issue is the availability of the books, confusion about what rules are current and even valid at any given time. If these things were resolved by FW I think you would see a lot more tournaments allow it.

 Hulksmash wrote:
But I don't want FW users riding with me at the front of the bus!

I think you mean on the short bus Brad!

No, they can join me on the short bus. They just can't sit at the front with me

Redacted per Reds8n's request.

Jumping jeebus, people...

I thought that the pro-Forge World crowds are the Jews, and that the anti-Forge world are the Nazis trying to take away their freedoms and oppress them.

 NeedleOfInquiry wrote:
Nice try but not this is not on that scale and that is not what I said. Try reading it again.

Th
This is going to be an official change to the wording. Are you just going to ignore it because you are comfortable with things the way they are?

If the players who actually pay to attend events I run continue to vote that they would prefer not to allow FW...absolutely. Not worth risking my own money just to please people on the internet. But you are more than welcome to do so. Anyone can run tournaments, but few seek to put in the money or effort and instead want others to change for them.

To quote Ghandi "Be the change you want to see in the world."

Instead of coming on here and railing against those running events step up and actually do something. Run a successful evet in the style you want to see.

Though I typically don't allow FW in my events (I do sometimes in more casual events, because people don't mind as much), because it is not something my players desire, and is additional work for me. I have lots of respect for TOs that do, variety is the spice of life.

Wait, wait, WAIT?!?! There are rules to the ForgeWorld Models? That’s cool. I should check them out. I mean I don’t really even read the GW rules, I’m more of a skimmer. Reading is HARD.

MVBrandt wrote:
What ritides said. Trolls claiming racism-related moral high ground in a discussion about what toys you can use in an event put on at cost for the fun of others = thread death.
http://i.imgur.com/MHuW96t.gif

I peed myself a little bit I was laughing so hard after watching this.

 Hulksmash wrote:
But I don't want FW users riding with me at the front of the bus!

Hulk buddy, I will sit at the back of the short bus every time if I can play with all my toys. And I did get a brand new helmet for my birthday so I won’t be hurting myself so much at the tables from now on. Life is good. SAVE ME A SEAT!

I ride in a resin bus that was made by Forge World, driven by Rosa Parks and powered by Unicorns.

But you still have to sit at the back Reece

Even on the Short Bus this Hulk guy is still trying to bring us down Reecius. Geez, I guess they don't realize us California Hippies always just go with the flow. What ever DUDE!!! 8) From what little I remember of my high school days all the cool kids sat at the back of the bus anyways. You Nerds with control issues can sit up front. Reecius and I will sit in the back with the Dudes and the 1 or 2 girls that might actually be on the bus.

Freedom for life! Resin HUGGING Hippies UNITE!!!

Lol, not too far off Dugg (although for the record, us nerds at the front of the bus are happy for people to play anyway they like, too . It's those loud kids in the middle that are yelling for everybody to play one way or the other only )

Everyone is welcome on the Forge World short bus! We don't discriminate!

 Reecius wrote:
Everyone is welcome on the Forge World short bus! We don't discriminate!

Is this the "bus" you are talking about?