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 Reecius wrote:
Haha, you guys, read the title of the thread, this was obviously a joke from day one. I totally accept that I started this so, fair enough, I take responsibility for that, but I reserve the right to declare when it has gone to absurd level! haha

Dakka Dakka = SERIOUS BUSINESS

That's why we're all Dakka Tough Guys! I know you still have the shirt...I have mine!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like a big tournament coming up in Las Vegas is allowing full Forgeworld access? If so, it will be interesting to see which armies/lists end up winning. And if, for example, the top five armies have no FW in them, will that result change anyone's opinions on the matter?

@Reecius
If you post in a FW thread and you are not;
1) Angry and opinionated
2) Comparison to Nazi, Racist, etc.
3) Insulting someone

Then you are not doing it right. I am pretty convinced that is 90% of what these threads are about.

 Reecius wrote:
So, come and have fun to our event if you want, it looks like it's going to sell out with or without you FW opponents either way so no sweat off our back. We'd love to see you come of course, genuinely, but we won't shed any tears if you don't.

Reecius man, I feel like you are a great guy to talk to in-person but mixing "joking" and then serious statements like "no sweat off our back" or "we won't shed any tears" regarding people attending your event is not the best way to communicate regarding it, imo...

I'm also not a "FW opponent", as I would like to see more FW allowance... but phased in! But once again you completely refused to address the possibility of running an event with limited FW allowance! I called you out on this, and you still don't address it. Will you ever consider running an event with limited FW, or will all your events from now on be ONLY unlimited FW?

Finally, if you have poll results, please share the data itself and we can certainly talk about it instead / in addition to the AdeptiCon poll.

-----------------------------------------

Off-topic, regarding the tone of these threads: imo, a page of joking posts don't help things, either. It's fine that you and Dugg are done with the thread, but just making nonsense posts is not only unhelpful to the conversation, but it's against Dakka's rules to boot. It makes it even harder to overcome the poor "signal to noise" ratio we generally have on this topic... but it's worth trying, anyway, as you've got a lot of TOs on here and there can be some really good discussion in the midst of it all.

@Reece

Had a long post in response to your previous post. Decided it wouldn't contribute anything useful or impact the conversation in any way.

Good luck with your event.

Hahaha, oh my goodness!!!!!%)(%*!%*!)

Haha, ,

@Whitedragon

Yes, haha, it is!

@Tanhausser42

Yes there is, but we've already had major events with FW for OVER A YEAR! Not to yell but it is exasperating. We've already been doing it for a long time now and in multiple events and the only person who got mad about it was Blackmoor! hahaha

@Ansacs

Yes, my apologies, I forgot to follow proper protocol: If you don't like FW you're a Nazi loving, freedom hating, back of the bus driving, jerktron 5,000!

Carry on

@RiTides

I am sorry if I blew past some of your points but this isn't a formal debate and people are trying to dictate to us how to run our event as if they knew our business better than we do when they have not ever run a GT and there only point of reference is internet forums. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but the amount of backseat driving we get in this business is silly at times. I understand your point that it is good to listen to input (and we really do!) but some of this input is coming from talking heads ignorant of the facts, who aren't even going to the event and yet still want to "be heard." Haha, you have to see that that is not really a good source of information.

And we're not unlimited FW. We ARE limited FW, hahaha, that illustrates my point. Folks don't even know our structure and are declaring it bad, or good, or whatever.

And I HAVE posted our poll data, hahahaha, multiple times on multiple websites including Frontline, BoLS, here (more than once!), but peopel don't see it. It's enough to drive a guy bananas!

So yes, when someone with an uniformed opinion is saying they won't go to our event because they think we do something that we don't that wasn't going to go to our event anyway, not knowing we've already tested the threory multiple times to positive response and posted the data, multiple times....then it really and truly is no sweat off of our back

Not trying to be mean, just explaining the situation from our perspective and how absurd it becomes!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Hulk

Thanks for your restraint, you're a friend and a good player and I respect your opinion but if it was just more of the same, you're the bigger man.

You know we'd love to see you there, bro, but we respect your choice as to what events you go to.

Thanks for the well wishes!

Reecius, I've looked through your posts and your forum, and I just cannot find a poll regarding FW. Can you point me to it?

All I see recently is your talking about the AdeptiCon poll going out, and your saying this:

Reecius wrote:I agree, I think this poll, if it gets a solid response rate and they choose to post the results, will be very telling.

And I still think you're dodging my questions :-/ as I assume when you characterize your event as "limited FW", you mean the fact that FW army lists are not allowed, but you know very well that that's not what I mean. This is what is listed for the Championships that I can see:

LVO Rules wrote:Forge World units will be allowed so long as they are neither a Super Heavy nor Gargantuan Creature. The most recent version of the rules must be used. This means not just the “40K Approved” units, but any that do not fall within the above restrictions. Forge World Army Lists will not be allowed. - See more at: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/las-vegas-open/las-vegas-open-warhammer-40k-championships/#sthash.6WXObKZV.dpuf

In other words, I'm doing the legwork to try to have a real discussion with you on this, and you've got others like MVBrandt, Hulksmash, etc wanting to have a serious conversation about it.

But when your response to me is that you are running a "limited FW" event, when all that is disallowed is the FW army lists, that's not discussing it genuinely. And I like to think I'm pretty internet savvy, but for the life of me I cannot find where you posted a poll regarding FW allowance in your event (having polled your attendees like AdeptiCon did). Perhaps it was farther back than I have looked... can you point me to it?

 Blackmoor wrote:
One is GW and the other is FW.

This is a difference entirely invented by certain players. It makes about as much sense as arguing for bans/limits on codex units because they weren't written by your favorite author and so the statement saying "this is an official codex" isn't really from "real GW".

 RiTides wrote:
I'm also not a "FW opponent", as I would like to see more FW allowance... but phased in! But once again you completely refused to address the possibility of running an event with limited FW allowance! I called you out on this, and you still don't address it. Will you ever consider running an event with limited FW, or will all your events from now on be ONLY unlimited FW?

But why does there need to be a compromise when the everything-legal event is already working just fine? You're asking for a compromise just for the sake of having a compromise, which makes about as much sense as "phasing in" codex units by imposing a 0-1 limit on them.

@Reece

It wasn't more of the same, but like I said, it wouldn't have mattered. You're in full court defensive and "I'm right" mode so there isn't a discussion happening.

I say it with love and I really do wish you luck. It's just the tone of your posts don't help open discussion. It polarizes. I realize it can be frustrating feeling like your event is under attack but not every voice that disagrees or offers criticism is attacking you. You know I love Brandt, but you can ask him about how I've let him have it over things over the years he's been building and running Nova.

Lastly, if you really are comfortable with what your running why start threads that have title to mock another poster about a rumor that we've been hearing since 6th started? And that invariably leads to discussion that you feel like is an attack. It's a bit of a cycle.

Just my opinion. Take it or leave it. I'm sure Vegas will be epic.

Hulk and Reece, you guys need to hug it out. We used to be comrades! Oh the humanity. I was the angry guy, remember, not you two!

Not angry, just having open dialogue. Like dudes do bro

If attendance dipped drastically at your tournaments, Reece, would it change your opinion on running FW?

Because the missions you run are fantastic, and you guys are a blast to hang out with.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
One is GW and the other is FW.

This is a difference entirely invented by certain players. It makes about as much sense as arguing for bans/limits on codex units because they weren't written by your favorite author and so the statement saying "this is an official codex" isn't really from "real GW".

 RiTides wrote:
I'm also not a "FW opponent", as I would like to see more FW allowance... but phased in! But once again you completely refused to address the possibility of running an event with limited FW allowance! I called you out on this, and you still don't address it. Will you ever consider running an event with limited FW, or will all your events from now on be ONLY unlimited FW?

But why does there need to be a compromise when the everything-legal event is already working just fine? You're asking for a compromise just for the sake of having a compromise, which makes about as much sense as "phasing in" codex units by imposing a 0-1 limit on them.

Agreed!

...and I have to say that Hulksmash seems pretty damn Huggable to me. HULKHUG!!

@RiTides

You can find the data by going to Frontline Gaming, community tab, scroll down to previous events, BAO 2013, results. I have it all in graphs and such.

The polls this year ran on the Frontline Gaming forums and it was basically more of the same. Like Adepticons, we had a lot of people wanting things to stay the same as they were comfortable with them. You get that a lot, people fear change to a certain extent but in this type of game, people spend time and money building an army expecting something and they (justifiably) don't want to see that time, money and energy wasted.

Sorry if I came across harsh or dodging a question, that wasn't my intent, I just got exasperated. But like Peregrine said, we're not looking to compromise for folks that MIGHT come when we have folks that ARE coming that like it how it is. It's not trying to stone wall people, it's just basic sense (IMO). You prioritize those who loyally attend your events before those who have not and may never come. I maybe said it not as well as i could have, though, I concede that.

@Hulk

No worries dude, I am 100% open to criticism. I may get my feelings hurt and act defensively a bit from time to time but for the most part I take it well.

And you are right that I shouldn't set up shop in a glass house when i start a thread like this as I was poking fun at Blackmoor but I hoped it was clear in a fun, not hurtful, way.

I didn't mean to come across as defensive or "I'm right" (and reading what I wrote in that light, I can see how you got that), I was actually laughing my ass off while writing it. Dugg was sitting right next to me (we're in China together) and we were cracking up mostly because it is the same people saying the same things over and over (myself included) and it just started to seem absurd to me.

This is how I see it at this point. Not saying I am right, you (or anyone is wrong) but logically, this makes sense to me:

It is better to have events than not have events.
It is better to have the event you want, than not.
If you cannot have exactly the event you want, it is better to go to some than none.
If you have a variety to choose from, choose the one that most suits you.
We use Forgeworld and have shown objectively it works for us. We do not plan to change (but would under the right circumstances).
Some people will choose not to go for that reason.
Therefore, it just is what it is.

So, following that logic, if someone says, "I am not going to go unless you change," and we aren't going to change, then we have come to an impasse and instead of arguing about it till we're blue in the face I simply say, that sucks, we wish you would come, but we're not going to stop the train for a vocal few.

So sorry if that came across as harsh, maybe it was motivated by a little bit of anger, but I am only human and at times I lose it a little bit. You are my friend, Blackmoor, god bless him and his constant criticism (and yet still goes to all of our events! ), is my friend too, and there truly are no hard feelings. if you make it to Vegas, awesome, if not, we won't be mad at all.

@Hippest

For sure, 100%

We've said multiple times we will give our attendees the event they want and we play very close attention to what they tell us and time after time we get a BIG majority that is for Forgeworld. I don't know why our numbers differ so much from the other events, but it does. We tried to get FW on the ticket 2 years ago and it fell flat by, IRRC, a 15% margin? It was close but too much risk for us to go through with it.

Last year the poll was hugely in favor of it and it grew further positive on the exit polls. Meaning, our attendees wanted it going in, and were even more favorable going out.

If after LVO and BAO this year we have a majority of people telling us they don't want it anymore, we'll change. It wouldn't even take a dramatic dip. This is a business after all, and if we don't make enough money to cover our overhead and grow, that would be dumb. Frankie and I love FW, but we don't play in our events so what does it matter to us, you know? Folks here like it for whatever reason and event after event we get positive feedback. What we find is that exposure to FW brings enjoyment of it in most cases.

And thanks! Glad you like the missions and that you had fun hanging out with us. It was awesome of you to help us breakdown the event and the least we could do was buy you a couple shots and cut loose! We do that a lot! hahah, and want vegas to be all about that type of fun, not just agonizing over every format detail (even though that is important). If you don't make it, we'll see you at Adepticon again, I am sure.

Hope to see you there!

@Whitedragon

We can build bridges, brother, and all be bros again!! I believe!

Now, would you allow forgeworl models, such as if I wanted to run the special crisis suits as Regular?

Yes, they look 100X cooler and the rule of cool is in effect for us! Any counts as it good to go as long as it is roughly the same size and shape or shows some really awesome artistic flare while not granting an unfair advantage.

Can I /we get a list from someone, likely Reece or Doug, of the current books that contain forgeworld units I'd have to get to have a comprehensive knowledge of how the game operates with full forgeworld inclusion? Honestly not trying to troll or incite a 'ha see how much money all this is zomg.' I'm just genuinely interested in how many/what books are relevant currently. IE are some books now out of date and only worth owning for posterity or if I just go on the forgeworld site can i just assume i can buy everything and have a complete set of rules?

I probably wont make it to LVO this year, i was considering it but I have so many other trips already planned next year with ETC and everything that I cant validate another tournament (both with my wallet and my wife lol). But it would be nice to know what my 'buy in' would be to have a firm grasp on what forgeworld does to the 40k meta.

thanatos67 wrote:
Can I /we get a list from someone, likely Reece or Doug, of the current books that contain forgeworld units I'd have to get to have a comprehensive knowledge of how the game operates with full forgeworld inclusion?

IA:Apocalypse (general update)
IA:Aeronautica (flyers)
IA12 (DKoK, Necrons)
IA1 2nd edition (IG)
IA3 2nd edition (Tau, Elysians)
IA2 2nd edition (marines, will be published soon)

Those are the 6th edition books, and between those and the online update pdfs you should have every relevant unit. There might be some obscure thing (I think maybe an ork unit or two?) in an old book that isn't covered, but those aren't likely to see any use in tournaments.

 Reecius wrote:

I didn't mean to come across as defensive or "I'm right" (and reading what I wrote in that light, I can see how you got that), I was actually laughing my ass off while writing it. Dugg was sitting right next to me (we're in China together) and we were cracking up mostly because it is the same people saying the same things over and over (myself included) and it just started to seem absurd to me.

I imagined you two spooning in bed together giggling, like Japanese schoolgirls in a Hello Kitty store, as you posted.

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Reecius wrote:

I didn't mean to come across as defensive or "I'm right" (and reading what I wrote in that light, I can see how you got that), I was actually laughing my ass off while writing it. Dugg was sitting right next to me (we're in China together) and we were cracking up mostly because it is the same people saying the same things over and over (myself included) and it just started to seem absurd to me.

I imagined you two spooning in bed together giggling, like Japanese schoolgirls in a Hello Kitty store, as you posted.

haha! More like Chinese noddle/beer fart jokes and laughter. The spooning in bed part you got right tho.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am also not saying you guys are all wrong. All I am saying is that "I'm right". :p

That said - my opinion and views changes all the time. I hope someone is taking notes because I'm not.

Freedom!

I was thinking about Grey Knight builds and how you need a couple of storm ravens to make them work these days...then I remembered all of the saber platforms that we see whenever FW is at a tournament and I thought how quickly they will get shot down.

Then I thought about how Chaos and Necrons need flyers as well to come close to beating Eldar and Tau and now how screwed they are,

Funny the difference a year makes.

I was thinking about IG builds and how you need some guardsmen camping objectives in cover to make them work these days... then I remembered all the no-cover Riptides that we see whenever codex units are at a tournament and I thought how quickly they will get wiped off the table.

Then I thought about how Necrons and C:SM need shooting as well to come close to beating Eldar and Tau and now how screwed those guns are against re-rollable 2++ death stars,

Funny the difference a year makes.

 Peregrine wrote:

thanatos67 wrote:
Can I /we get a list from someone, likely Reece or Doug, of the current books that contain forgeworld units I'd have to get to have a comprehensive knowledge of how the game operates with full forgeworld inclusion?

IA:Apocalypse (general update)
IA:Aeronautica (flyers)
IA12 (DKoK, Necrons)
IA1 2nd edition (IG)
IA3 2nd edition (Tau, Elysians)
IA2 2nd edition (marines, will be published soon)

Those are the 6th edition books, and between those and the online update pdfs you should have every relevant unit. There might be some obscure thing (I think maybe an ork unit or two?) in an old book that isn't covered, but those aren't likely to see any use in tournaments.

Interesting, I'd only question if IA8 or 11 should be on the list as they look like they'd contain rules for orks/eldar. Those rules might have been ammended in the more recent books though, thoughts?

As an aside I did hop over to the fw page and calculated about how much it'd be to just buy all of the above books. Its really not that unreasonable when you think about it. Think cost of 3 wraithknights. And before you say thats alot, think about how many of your friends or people you know who would just go and buy 3 wraithknights. Most of the people i know who play this game would do it, probably with just a bit of hesitation or remorse for their wallet. I think, as I said earlier on this thread, that the 'cost of books to know whats going on' rationale is getting weaker and weaker as gw keeps pumping out supplements and dexes. I also think the 'imablance relative to 40k' rationale has always been a bit subjective and unimportant to me. Are saber platforms/thudd guns/hades drills good? Sure, but are they any better or more game breaking than screamerstar? How about the unit of riptides? I dont think anyone balance tested either of those things to be honest. Thats speculation of course, but I dont think that its very far fetched.

Thanks for the information, makes the forgeworld thing sound alot less irrational.

Nice post, Reecius! Thanks for the super thoughtful reply, I really appreciate it. Will check out that data, too (although later as I'm heading to work).

Still need to know what you two are up to in China, though!

Looking forward to hopefully seeing you guys at AdeptiCon . I actually saw you both there in 2012 but chickened out from saying hi. I told the same thing to Hulksmash, but I'm going to try to make sure to meet everyone this time . If I am able to attend a second Con in 2014 I will definitely consider your events, as my wife sometimes gets sent to the west coast for conferences and I go with her but have free time.

thanatos67 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

thanatos67 wrote:
Can I /we get a list from someone, likely Reece or Doug, of the current books that contain forgeworld units I'd have to get to have a comprehensive knowledge of how the game operates with full forgeworld inclusion?

IA:Apocalypse (general update)
IA:Aeronautica (flyers)
IA12 (DKoK, Necrons)
IA1 2nd edition (IG)
IA3 2nd edition (Tau, Elysians)
IA2 2nd edition (marines, will be published soon)

Those are the 6th edition books, and between those and the online update pdfs you should have every relevant unit. There might be some obscure thing (I think maybe an ork unit or two?) in an old book that isn't covered, but those aren't likely to see any use in tournaments.

Interesting, I'd only question if IA8 or 11 should be on the list as they look like they'd contain rules for orks/eldar. Those rules might have been ammended in the more recent books though, thoughts?

As an aside I did hop over to the fw page and calculated about how much it'd be to just buy all of the above books. Its really not that unreasonable when you think about it. Think cost of 3 wraithknights. And before you say thats alot, think about how many of your friends or people you know who would just go and buy 3 wraithknights. Most of the people i know who play this game would do it, probably with just a bit of hesitation or remorse for their wallet. I think, as I said earlier on this thread, that the 'cost of books to know whats going on' rationale is getting weaker and weaker as gw keeps pumping out supplements and dexes. I also think the 'imablance relative to 40k' rationale has always been a bit subjective and unimportant to me. Are saber platforms/thudd guns/hades drills good? Sure, but are they any better or more game breaking than screamerstar? How about the unit of riptides? I dont think anyone balance tested either of those things to be honest. Thats speculation of course, but I dont think that its very far fetched.

Thanks for the information, makes the forgeworld thing sound alot less irrational.

I'd be surprised if those books contained all the current FW units that can be used....furthermore here is the thing about the cost. SO you say those books above cost $300+ dollars, which is no more than buying 3 wraithknights....but if I want to know what is in them and still run 3 wraithknights now I have bought 6 wraithknights.....and actually the cost of books rationale is getting stronger and stronger not the opposite. IF as a TO I am already spending $50 per books for 14 core codices + $25+ for all the supplements, and now I'm adding another $50+ for each IA book....The argument of well you are already spending a bunch of money so what is a few hundred more dollars is a weak one at best. Same with the FW is no more broken than the game already....adding broken to broken does not a good game make. That is not even a relavant argument.

The best Anti fw argument is:

Player knowledge - most people don't know what FW units do, nor do they know which books contain which units. I think the big drawback is adding tons of units all at once. I have said before I would be more for adding books over time, but that would take some sort of organization that our community does not posses.


Which is the same argument against limited FW, it would work great if tournaments started with limited FW and gradually introduced more as time went on (which could work locally), but there again would need to be organization to do this.

SO I fall where Reese does on this. Variety is great, Full FW events, Limited, and NO FW events all have a place. If you don't see the above in your area, start some.

thanatos67 wrote:
Can I /we get a list from someone, likely Reece or Doug, of the current books that contain forgeworld units I'd have to get to have a comprehensive knowledge of how the game operates with full forgeworld inclusion?

I've been working on something for myself that shows the current rules for each unit.
notes: I don't have IA:1 2nd edition yet; so the information regarding those units is currently 2nd hand, and this is a work in progress so their may still be mistakes.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmGqXwQJt90_dFpoVm4zbWxfLS1qZEVBbmRKalJCVEE&usp=drive_web#gid=0

FW Units are on the first tab
FW army list locations are on the second tab

My argument against "Player Knowledge" is that there are large parts of the community who don't even understand the ins and outs of their own codex, much less any others people are playing against them. Why learn when they can be lazy about it and just wait and be spoonfed information the day of?

I think that's a poor argument when you're talking about a tournament.

Not that I think "player knowledge" is a good one - I just think yours is worse.

rigeld2 wrote:
I think that's a poor argument when you're talking about a tournament.

Not that I think "player knowledge" is a good one - I just think yours is worse.

I've seen it at tournaments too. I'm speaking anecdotally, I know but the community has a lot of people who just don't really take the time to learn the rules, much less the rules of other books.

Is it possibly a weak arguement? Sure. But it's no weaker than player knowledge being argued as a reason to keep things out. If that was the case everyone should just play C:SM and nothing else to prevent unfamiliar rules from being used.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Reece

It wasn't more of the same, but like I said, it wouldn't have mattered. You're in full court defensive and "I'm right" mode so there isn't a discussion happening.

I say it with love and I really do wish you luck. It's just the tone of your posts don't help open discussion. It polarizes. I realize it can be frustrating feeling like your event is under attack but not every voice that disagrees or offers criticism is attacking you. You know I love Brandt, but you can ask him about how I've let him have it over things over the years he's been building and running Nova.

Lastly, if you really are comfortable with what your running why start threads that have title to mock another poster about a rumor that we've been hearing since 6th started? And that invariably leads to discussion that you feel like is an attack. It's a bit of a cycle.

Just my opinion. Take it or leave it. I'm sure Vegas will be epic.

It's a phase we all go through (and occasionally go back through!); the NOVA dramatically improves every year b/c we get shellacked by honest criticism and do our best not to slam our ears to it and go in full court mode. Just confirming Brad's comment here, and yes ... we do love each other. This is especially true since he's very willing to tell me everything he dislikes, and as a smart guy is often right. There are thousands upon thousands of intelligent people amidst the chaff of the internet, and with our powers combined, blah blah yada yada Captain Tournament Format.