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 Reecius wrote:
@RiTides

Dude, totally come up and say hi, both Dugg and I are very friendly. I am hard to miss too, usually laughing very loudly, typically beer in hand!

Often, Pabst.

I don't know as I have much in the way to contribute here, other than making sure there are enough beer references . . . okay, how's this:

I suppose that after enough PBR, the amount of FW in the tourney becomes irrelevant.



Right?


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 Dude_I_Suck wrote:
I've seen one or two breaching drills total, so it's not like people are filling up on all the forgeworld they can in the BAO format.

You didn't play the guy with a full load of 9 Medusas in his IG blob.
... man, that one sucked.

Ah, seemed to miss that one. That could be annoying to say the least. I've played Doug twice though, if that counts for anything

Breng77 wrote:
Reese the difference is at least if you bring a tau codex/ supplement I know that you have the most recent copy of the rules for said unit.

How do you know this when GW has silently updated their digital books? Unless you own a copy yourself (or do the research like with FW units) you'll never know if they've got the updated version of a digital codex or an obsolete one.

Actually if you pay attention to general 40K forum you will see questions like; "Is codex: Craftworld Eldar still usable?" etc.

Lets not even talk about squats which is an entire army that never got updated.

For FW Either the units have been brought into the new rules set (SM special characters) or not (Eldar Corsairs).

 Dude_I_Suck wrote:
Ah, seemed to miss that one. That could be annoying to say the least. I've played Doug twice though, if that counts for anything

You have? Who is this and what did you play? I get forum names mixed up all the time. Did we have some fun?

Breaching Drills are cool but not very good anymore unless you are usings a DKoK list. They changed the blast and no bargding anymore. I'm still working on a fun and goofy DKoK list with them and Mole Launchers. Will be fun.

I also want to make a 30 Sabre List to have for those times I am playing Blackmoor. No body loves playing vs Sabres more thn Blackmoor

Even with he DKoK list the breaching drills aren't very good, they are however a wonderful way to simply give your opponent free points however

 Peregrine wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Reese the difference is at least if you bring a tau codex/ supplement I know that you have the most recent copy of the rules for said unit.

How do you know this when GW has silently updated their digital books? Unless you own a copy yourself (or do the research like with FW units) you'll never know if they've got the updated version of a digital codex or an obsolete one.

Because they are not entirely new editions and they don't change point costs just wordings like an FAQ (which for digital codices they typically release changes in FAQ because hard copies also exist, so I assume this will also happen for supplements when hard copies exist.). I'm not saying it is perfect but there is a significant difference between having a Farsight supplement that does not have updated language for a piece of wargear and brining a unit from say IA apoc 2nd ed that has been updated in IA 2 second ed. It is is far less reasonable to expect someone to buy every FW book to see if their units got updated (or at least every book containing models for their faction), than it is to expect them to download free updates.

 Dugg wrote:


You have? Who is this and what did you play? I get forum names mixed up all the time. Did we have some fun?

Breaching Drills are cool but not very good anymore unless you are usings a DKoK list. They changed the blast and no bargding anymore. I'm still working on a fun and goofy DKoK list with them and Mole Launchers. Will be fun.

I also want to make a 30 Sabre List to have for those times I am playing Blackmoor. No body loves playing vs Sabres more thn Blackmoor

I'm the Slaaneshi guy you played I want to say 4th round of this years Broadside Bash, Garner. I enjoyed it, especially when my seekers rolled boxcars and hit your gun line, then also lost 5 to dangerous terrain tests... Haha, happens. I believe I can get the rest of my army to you this time though, and now the herald with the seekers has locus of move through cover.

@Breng77 and Mike

You guys make good points, and it is true that FW only adds to the complexity, and when i said most players don't know most the rules it wasn't an argument in favor of or against FW, just stating what I have observed. In fact, most players IME don't even know what their own codex does, fully. It is a relatively minor percentage of players that really know the rules well. In our Tips and Tricks videos we have been going over seriously basic stuff right out of the BRB and people are expressing shock at it, it is pretty enlightening. For most players, like a vast majority, this is very much just a casual hobby. Those of us crazy, obsessive few and certainly outliers! haha

As Garner points out, in the 5+ FW allowed GT events we've had, the vast majority of it is 1 or 2 units, all pretty basic, maybe some heavy artillery, some contemptors, or sabers, nothing big. And, still, no one has one an event of ours with any FW units! All we've really seen it do in application is provide a more diverse field of armies which we like, it is disheartening when we see tournaments that have a lot of one or the other army. Variety in lists and armies is so much more fun, IMO.

If a point comes when FW really does dominate and we see FW spam lists and it pisses people off, we will change if that is what our attendees ask, but so far, over a year in, it has been vastly underwhelming. The chatter on the web makes it seem like a lot bigger of a deal than it has been for us in practice.

I think that we are coming into an age of this crazy game of ours where there are going to be so many different rules in so many different formats, plus FAQs, and such that you just need to be able to adapt. It is not realistic to expect anyone to know it all. So, with that logic, we say might as well add in more as it means more toys, more variety and (to us) more fun, but I can see the counter argument, too. Less variables makes it easier for people to plan for the meta which is something I understand but then we get too much uniformity as with 5th ed, IMO.

YMMV.


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Brothererekose wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
@RiTides

Dude, totally come up and say hi, both Dugg and I are very friendly. I am hard to miss too, usually laughing very loudly, typically beer in hand!

Often, Pabst.

I don't know as I have much in the way to contribute here, other than making sure there are enough beer references . . . okay, how's this:

I suppose that after enough PBR, the amount of FW in the tourney becomes irrelevant.



Right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dude_I_Suck wrote:
I've seen one or two breaching drills total, so it's not like people are filling up on all the forgeworld they can in the BAO format.

You didn't play the guy with a full load of 9 Medusas in his IG blob.
... man, that one sucked.

That shirt is EPIC!!!!

Can't wait to see that at LVO! hahaha

Hey I have no issue with providing the events your attendees want at all. I just have the opposite experience at mine. I ask every event. "Would you like FW included in future events?" Overwhelmingly the answer is no. I think what we end up with is that our rules impact who shows up which is reflected in the poll results.



I.e. you host events with FW so people opposed to FW don't show up...and don't vote on your poll. I generally don't host FW events(my Doubles event at the GT I run is FW 40k approved allowed.)...so people that won't show up unless FW is allowed don't show up and are not part of my poll.

Breng pretty much hit it on the nose. Which is why experimentation might not be out of wack considering the number of events you run Reece. Basically, as the one TO who runs multiple GT level events throughout the year you have a chance to experiement where others don't.

Something like allowing "Forgeworld Unique" at one of your lesser events and seeing if it increases sales. As you say it isn't going to affect the majority of your attendees since they only run 1-2 units anyway. So it shouldn't affect those already coming but could entice people leery of FW into coming.

Just a thought. Lord knows don't do it if it would be financially harmful or to risky. Making sure you're around to run events is more important than experimenting

Breng77 wrote:
Hey I have no issue with providing the events your attendees want at all. I just have the opposite experience at mine. I ask every event. "Would you like FW included in future events?" Overwhelmingly the answer is no. I think what we end up with is that our rules impact who shows up which is reflected in the poll results.

I.e. you host events with FW so people opposed to FW don't show up...and don't vote on your poll. I generally don't host FW events(my Doubles event at the GT I run is FW 40k approved allowed.)...so people that won't show up unless FW is allowed don't show up and are not part of my poll.

I can easily disprove this argument: Blackmoor comes to all of our events and he is the biggest FW hater on planet Earth!

Seriously though, the amount of people that actually don't come to an event because of a format issue is REALLY minor despite tons of people saying this or that is a deal breaker. We have some folks on the west coast that won't go to a no-comp event, some that won't go to a comp event, some that won't go to a FW event, some that won't go if they don't allow FW (that is how accepted it has become here, now).

But at the end of the day, folks want to go to tournaments and the vast majority are willing to accept a few things that they don't like as the alternative is biting their nose to spite their face and not going at all, having no fun compared to maybe slightly less fun if they are willing to accept some rulings they don't like.

Also, most people bring what they have painted to a tournament, so what we see is a tiny, tiny fraction of player who have 3+ FW units, and of those, most units are "cool models" or bring AA. It honestly has been so much smaller of a deal than threads like this make it out to be. One of the questions on our polls is: Did you notice that FW was at the event or play against it? That answer to that is higher on the "No" side than you would think. A lot of folks don't even notice that FW is there! haha

The thing about these threads that always cracks me up is people saying what will happen if we allow FW but refuse to go to FW events and as such , have little to no actual, real world experience with it where we have been running it full blast for multiple events now, over a year and can say from first hand experience most folks, once they try it, prefer it. But, somehow, people still argue against it! hahaha, for me real world experience outweighs opinion or conjecture.

As you said though, run the event your community wants. If your area doesn't like FW, then shoot, run with it. We don't expect anyone else to run their events in any other way than what they like.

Blackmoor has talked to us about running a different style event in LA and I encourage him to go for it. We aren't doing mercenary work running tournaments for others anymore unless we have an established relationship after what happened with Comikaze, but if he is right and there really is a strong player base that wants a no-FW style event on the West Coast, then the proof will be in the pudding. People vote with their wallets and so long as there are multiple events to choose from, they will choose the one they most want to go to.

It's just that talking about how a GT should be run and actually putting your money on the table and rolling the dice doing it are two very different things, especially when you consider how bloody expensive renting a venue in California can be. Sheesh, it is crazy expensive unless you go to a Vets Hall or County Fairgrounds (as most of us have to) which provides an entirely different set of issues to work through. But, that is a topic for another day.

@Hulk

I totally understand your sentiment, but again, hahaha, we don't feel the need to compromise or experiment on this topic because it is already working just fine

If we had a significant amount of people saying that they didn't like it anymore then we would for sure react to reflect changing desires. It's just that that sentiment isn't there! If it were, we'd act on it for sure.

We do use the smaller events to test run new ideas though, totally. It helps us to refine out system without major risk. We used to run 2 tournaments a month locally as well, and were always experimenting new ideas and seeing how people reacted to them but have fallen out of the habit as we're so busy and our store is too small to run a 16 player event. We plan on up-sizing into a bigger store this summer though, and will begin experimenting again in earnest.

So there hasn't been an event where someone shows up with a titan and goes "I got first turn, I win"?

Their events tend to allow all but titans and FW army lists, bagtagger:

LVO Rules wrote:Forge World units will be allowed so long as they are neither a Super Heavy nor Gargantuan Creature. The most recent version of the rules must be used. This means not just the “40K Approved” units, but any that do not fall within the above restrictions. Forge World Army Lists will not be allowed. - See more at: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/las-vegas-open/las-vegas-open-warhammer-40k-championships/#sthash.6WXObKZV.dpuf

bagtagger wrote:
So there hasn't been an event where someone shows up with a titan and goes "I got first turn, I win"?

As noted, such units are not allowed. Furthermore, even if they weren't explicitly banned, they don't have a place in an FoC, so couldn't be brought anyway

Reese-

Yes Blackmoor attends, and your survey does not 100% support FW inclusion...we'll never actually know how many people don't come because of format etc...simply because they don't come. Maybe you have 90% of all people tapped out. But there is no way really to know that. But yes if there is no other option available people will attend whatever is there to go to. It seems though that you guys run a majority of the big West Coast Events (or at least have in the past) out east there is a lot of choice of where to play GT wise, so it is easy enough for people to say...no thanks I'll go to that other event that does not include FW.

I'm still also in the Camp that believes we only see 3 or some FW units from some players because it is not legal everywhere... may that is true and maybe it is not, but as you said going with the proven method for your event is the way to go.

Personally though I don't run many FW events I would not specifically refuse to go to one at least once to see how it was...but out here in the east....they are quite rare.

I kind of wish there were FW inclusive, even if it only 0-1 here on the east coast, I miss running into gunlines who use t7 shooting to hide, and hit them like a truck turn 2 with my daemonettes.

 Dude_I_Suck wrote:
I kind of wish there were FW inclusive, even if it only 0-1 here on the east coast, I miss running into gunlines who use t7 shooting to hide, and hit them like a truck turn 2 with my daemonettes.

At the least, there's the NOVA Trios Team Tourney, which includes 2v2 and 1v1 gaming, and is 0-1 FW.
There's also the NOVA DC Narrative event, which is broad FW inclusive.

Both events have competitive components to them if that's part of your preference (in the case of the Narrative, this revolves around getting paired against equivalently brass-tacks lists, however, so take caution there!)

The Narrative is a 7-game format over the course of the NOVA as a whole, so certainly if you're looking for a bunch of games against a variety of opponents and FW included (including FW army lists, Horus Heresy, etc.), you can find it there and on the East Coast.

Breng77 wrote:
I'm not saying it is perfect but there is a significant difference between having a Farsight supplement that does not have updated language for a piece of wargear and brining a unit from say IA apoc 2nd ed that has been updated in IA 2 second ed.

How is this so different? The silent change in C:I from having DCA with two power weapons (which means axe + something else) to two power swords with no ability to take any other type of power weapon is at least as much of a change as some FW units have seen between editions. And, unlike the C:I update at least the FW book is clearly something new and separate from the original one, with the C:I changes you'd never know they happened unless you happened to go back and read the rules again and notice that they're not the same anymore.

It is is far less reasonable to expect someone to buy every FW book to see if their units got updated (or at least every book containing models for their faction), than it is to expect them to download free updates.

We're not talking about downloading free updates. Let's look at C:I again. I don't want to abuse inquisitors, so I just read my friend's copy which has been updated with the new DCA rules and don't buy it myself. Now I play you, and you've got DCAs with power axe + power sword with an official GW book that says it's legal. How am I supposed to know which one of these is the correct version? GW has not even admitted that an update happened, so the only way to know which one is correct is to download a fresh copy of the book and look at the rule. Which is at least as much effort as verifying which version of a FW unit is the most recent one.

Breng77 wrote:
Yes Blackmoor attends, and your survey does not 100% support FW inclusion...we'll never actually know how many people don't come because of format etc...simply because they don't come. Maybe you have 90% of all people tapped out. But there is no way really to know that. But yes if there is no other option available people will attend whatever is there to go to. It seems though that you guys run a majority of the big West Coast Events (or at least have in the past) out east there is a lot of choice of where to play GT wise, so it is easy enough for people to say...no thanks I'll go to that other event that does not include FW.

So why not apply that reasoning to every other option for running a tournament? Why not demand tournaments where allies aren't allowed? Why not demand true codex-only tournaments where supplements are banned? Why not demand tournaments where Tau are banned? Why not demand tournaments where Tau are the only legal army? Why not demand tournaments where only FW army lists are allowed? Why not demand tournaments where every unit is a 0-1 choice? It seems like the only place you want any variety in army building rules is banning/restricting FW units.

People could demand those things, generally they don't in my experience. Why they don't I don't really know perhaps because FW was unbalanced for a long time? Or "not official". For a long time? Comp events also exist....and more power to them for doing things their way. Everything has a place for me....it is you who seem to want to force everyone to play your way or have them tarred and feathered. But I don't see you running the events you want to see, or traveling to events that run the way you want. Instead everyone should provide for you events the way you want....and then have you not show up anyway. My tournaments (as I have pointed out) are non-FW due mostlyt o capitalism...my paying players don't want it...and if not I am certainly not going to spend my time and money keeping track of it.

If you don't see a difference between codex inquisition being updated (which is akin to an FAQ update to a hard copy book, which is also not announced, and must be checked for by a player using that book) and a unit found in a book being updated in another book entirely, I cannot help you. I'm not sayin that I would not prefer that these updates be announced, but at least a player knows where to look for the update. The FW method of updating things would be akin to Gw releasing a unit in codex space marines, hen updating it in codex blood angels and expecting space marine players to know to go to codex blood angels for the rules for their unit.

As opposed to a silent update in the middle of a tournament?

I have yet too hear how one is going to stop an automatic update on an iPod if the tournament has froze the rules for 30 days earlier...

I think we can all agree that's bad. This is also why random out cycle forge world updates muddy the water further.

We've got one TO bragging on how competitive a format is while having totally random rule changes.

 NeedleOfInquiry wrote:
As opposed to a silent update in the middle of a tournament?

I have yet too hear how one is going to stop an automatic update on an iPod if the tournament has froze the rules for 30 days earlier...

From the other thread, it seems they're not automatic.

But one horrible situation does not justify another . Digital updates are an issue too, and that's why they have their own thread in this section on how tournies will handle those updates.

haha, but fellas, no one is coming to the table with all the dang rules, anyway =)

So long as your opponent has accurate rules and shows you them for any units you need to read about before the game starts, it's all the same.

We bring every book (including FW and the FAQ's) to our events so that we have access to them on site and require every player to have his or her rules on hand. That is seriously the best you can hope for.

Every single tournament I have been in or run there are people playing stuff wrong. Either they don't know about an FAQ, or update or they just read a rule differently than their opponent does or don't know their own rules, didn't read the tournament FAQ or whatever. Long story short, no two tables at an event are playing the same game from a rules perspective. Even top level players get stuff wrong all the time. Tony Kopach was playing Njal wrong and had too many points in a few games, I played my Footdar for almost a year thinking the Avatar's Initiative was lower than it was, etc. Not saying I am a top level player or tooting my own horn or whatever, just that I seriously study the rules as it is my job and I still goof on stuff and other very serious players do too, all the time.

FW doesn't really change the situation we already have it just brings more of it to the table. It is still on the player to know their own rules, have the most recent versions and to communicate them to their opponent. It's no different than what we have right now with the "core" game.

So trying to clear up my point because people are still missing it.

Playing rules wrong =/= Not reading the current FAQ or Not having the Digital Update =/= updating units in completely separate books.

So reading a rule differently happens all the time, plenty of rules are unclear, or people make mistakes.

Not checking FAQs or Updates amounts to the same thing, it is lazyness on the part of a player to not check their own rules. Tournaments players should be expected to know where to go to find the FAQs for their books, same with digital updates (Ipad version tells you in Ibooks that you have updates, epub you need to go to the download site and re-download every so often, and certainly planning for a tournament.

Playing the rules for your Ork Kustom Meka Dread Wrong because you have IA 8, but did not buy IA Apoc (where according to the above linked spreadsheet, it was updated) is a completely different animal. Unless you buy every FW book that might contain rules for your faction there is no reasonable way (currently) to know which units are updated where (the above spreadsheet is great but hardly public knowledge.).

SO saying well guys get rules wrong already does not seem to mean we should definitely go with people playing out of date rules.

"From the other thread, it seems they're not automatic. "

Did not know that... Thanks

Breng77 wrote:
So trying to clear up my point because people are still missing it.

Playing rules wrong =/= Not reading the current FAQ or Not having the Digital Update =/= updating units in completely separate books.

So reading a rule differently happens all the time, plenty of rules are unclear, or people make mistakes.

Not checking FAQs or Updates amounts to the same thing, it is lazyness on the part of a player to not check their own rules. Tournaments players should be expected to know where to go to find the FAQs for their books, same with digital updates (Ipad version tells you in Ibooks that you have updates, epub you need to go to the download site and re-download every so often, and certainly planning for a tournament.

Playing the rules for your Ork Kustom Meka Dread Wrong because you have IA 8, but did not buy IA Apoc (where according to the above linked spreadsheet, it was updated) is a completely different animal. Unless you buy every FW book that might contain rules for your faction there is no reasonable way (currently) to know which units are updated where (the above spreadsheet is great but hardly public knowledge.).

SO saying well guys get rules wrong already does not seem to mean we should definitely go with people playing out of date rules.

So not checking to see what the most recent rules are for Codices is completely different than not checking to see what the most recent version of FW rules is.....

Haha, that is some pretty serious double think, there, and hopefully you can see that that is more than a little silly to say. You have to buy every digital codex to have all the rules, you have to buy every codex, etc. No one does that anyway! haha

If you have an internet connection you can figure out what the latest version of the rules are in a few seconds for any book in this game

Still not getting it....it is easy to know what the newest version of each book is...how easy is it to tell the newest version of a unit found in those books. Checking a free FAQ on GWs site, is different than finding out which units are in each FW book to see if one that you play with has been updated. No double think at all and I'm not talking about owning every book (though I own almost all of them) or knowing every rule. I'm talking about owning/buying every book that contains units I am using.

Maybe I'm wrong but can you point me to where there is a list of each unit that will be updated in each FW release...I'm pretty sure it does not exist...so I have no way to know in my example above (without a decent amount more research than checking an update page) that my unit has been updated.

Maybe you feel it no different....but to me having units updated in various books is a big issue with knowing if you are using the right rules.

I get what you're saying 100%, there is no disconnect. I simply disagree with your conclusion.

All you have to do is pay attention to when a new book is coming out and see what units are in it. That's what we do and it is simple, FW publishes the Table of Contexts for each IA book. Plus, you can just Google it.

My point was that you were making it sound like finding information about FW units is somehow a Herculean task, more so than staying on top of GW rules. It isn't, we do it and have done so for years, as do most FW enthusiasts, and that has never been an issue for us.

And again, the more important point (IMO) is that this entire conversation is moot. 95% of the player base doesn't keep up with the rules anyway! Haha, who cares if they don't know what FW does when they don't know all the rules in their own book! They're still going to have to ask at the table and figure it out as they go.

So going a bit off topic.

What would you guys think of a Mini GT?

I run a little Mini RTT 3 round 850pts on Weds between my leagues and thought that might be cool at a big event. You know bring in the noobs and Youngbloods into the Tournament scene.

I run it like this:

Played on a 4x4 Table
850 pts (could go 1k at Big Event)
3 rounds at 1:30 time per round (Maybe 4 rounds at 2hrs at Event or even a 2 day Event of 8 games)
All missions have a heavy objective theme with even objectives or odd one has to be place the center.

FOC:

1 HQ
2+ Troops
0-1 Elite
0-1 Fast
0-1 Heavy
1 Wild Card (Elite, Fast or Heavy)

Keep it simple and super casual for that crowd. Could even open up with the Wildcard as a single FW option.

I'm all for creating option not restricting already proven ones.