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MoT always has the check condition that it will never be applied if the save is better than 3+. Its a constant condition, there is never a "when" anywhere there.

The MoTz can only modify Invuls to 3++. It doesn't take into account the Grimoire.. It happens, and will continue to happen. Thankee

That's a very curious position for someone with "GW doesn't hide easter eggs in the rules for the benefit of particularly creative readers" included in their signature. Considering the Chaos Codex includes absolutely no way to reach better than a 2++ through it's own means, and neither does the Rulebook, it seems strange that they would even include that clause about a 3++ unless it precludes any assistance from Allies, IE the Grimoire.

Even so this is a question for another topic and I'll make a thread in YMDC.

You're right. I am absolutely trying to be a "particularly clever reader" with a unit I will never purchase, will never use, and will never include in any army list.

Maybe one day I will stop being a rules lawyer.

If I am wrong, that's cool. I won't ever use this unit so it will never come up with me. I know what kind of player I am.

I didn't mean any offence, I simply don't think the rules allow for this particular combination. Better to clarify if this actually works before a host of Chaos players invest in boxes of Warp Talons only to have their hopes dashed by a FAQ the next day.
As I said we can perhaps get a better answer in YMDC and I'm perfectly willing to accept if I am wrong on this.

Fair enough, Mozz- I will see you there!

: ]

My biggest gripe of the codex is the wargear section. The burning blade and shield eternal make the black mace look like a pointy stick...

Renegade_commander wrote:
My biggest gripe of the codex is the wargear section. The burning blade and shield eternal make the black mace look like a pointy stick...

Getting an extra d6 attacks is why CSM has lords that can beat face. I would take them every day of the week over the shield and burning blade!
That is how Abbadon can have 13 attacks on the charge. (4 base + 2 charge + 1 dual CCW + 6 attacks)

In comparison a C:SM chapter master has 5 attacks on the charge. That's over a 260% increase in damage output by the CSM on a good roll, and and a 200% increase on an average roll.

Daemon weapons are why the C:SM codex has the nastiest ICs.

I don't know about you, but chaos marines seem fine to me at the moment, Can't stand the drakes though...