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I'm doing some final tweaking for a 1750 point Eldar list I'm taking to a local tourney this weekend. I'm waffling between how to spend the last couple hundred points. The first option is a second Farseer (to ride with Fire Dragons and make them extra-reliable) and a small squad of Rangers (providing a 5th scoring unit), while the second option is to take 3 Vypers. My usual loadout on them has been to run with Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons. However, both in the interests of saving points and of trying to get a bit more AP2 into the army (as well as realizing that I'm sometimes short a Guide target for my Farseer), I'm thinking of swapping them back to dual Shuriken Cannons or running them with Starcannons.

Does anybody have any general feedback on this decision? One the one hand, the Starcannons provide guaranteed AP2, but the Cannons give an extra shot and are 5 points cheaper. I really don't think 15 points is going to kill the army one way or the other (it'd allow me to run 9 Warp Spiders instead of just 8). My instinct is that in most cases More Shots is More Better, but there is already a pretty big surplus of S6 AP(not 2) firepower in the army that I can probably afford to give up a couple of shots in exchange for guaranteed AP2.

Thanks, all.

The rest of the list for reference:
1 Farseer, Bike, Spear (of Teuthlas if points allow)
7 Fire Dragons incl Exarch, Serpent (TL Scatters, ShurCannon, Holofields, Ghostwalk)
5 Dire Avengers, Serpent (TL Scatters, ShurCannon, Holofields, Ghostwalk)
5 Dire Avengers, Serpent (TL Scatters, ShurCannon, Holofields, Ghostwalk)
3 Jetbikes, incl. ShurCannon
3 Jetbikes, incl. ShurCannon
8 Warp Spiders
1 Wraithknight (two Wraithcannons)
1 Nightspinner (Ghostwalk, Holofields)

And then either:
3 Vypers, or
1 Farseer, 6 Rangers

I'd rather take starcannons - I like ap2. I know the shuri cannons get semi rending on 3 shots, but that needs 6's.

Starcannons being ap2 works against light vehicles and you get +1 on the damage table.

Against 3+, I think the starcannon is better as it means you kill what you hit, where the shuri cannon (ime) only tends to kill on 6's to wound cos've armour.

YMMV though.

Massively in favour of shuriken cannons. You get 3x the shots for a few more points. The only downside is the shorter range. For anything except 2+ saves with a weak/non-existent cover or invulnerable save, the shuriken wins out.

2+ save with a 3+ or 4+ cover/invulnerable? Actually about the same.

3+ save? 3 times the shots would produce exactly the same number of unsaved wounds anyway. So the rending is a bonus that puts the shuriken cannons ahead.

3+ save in cover, or a 4+ save, or a 5+ save whether or not in cover? The shurikens are massively better.

Light vehicles? Shurikens are massively better. +1 on the damage chart is nothing near as good as 3x the shots.

Shuriken cannons are just far more versatile. Unless you know/suspect you are facing armies composed mostly or entirely with 2+ saves, why would you ever take starcannons?

 I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:
Massively in favour of shuriken cannons. You get 3x the shots for a few more points. The only downside is the shorter range. For anything except 2+ saves with a weak/non-existent cover or invulnerable save, the shuriken wins out.

2+ save with a 3+ or 4+ cover/invulnerable? Actually about the same.

3+ save? 3 times the shots would produce exactly the same number of unsaved wounds anyway. So the rending is a bonus that puts the shuriken cannons ahead.

3+ save in cover, or a 4+ save, or a 5+ save whether or not in cover? The shurikens are massively better.

Light vehicles? Shurikens are massively better. +1 on the damage chart is nothing near as good as 3x the shots.

Shuriken cannons are just far more versatile. Unless you know/suspect you are facing armies composed mostly or entirely with 2+ saves, why would you ever take starcannons?

3 times the shots?

You get two shots with a starcannon and 3 shots with a shuriken cannon don't you?

one thing is in your list i would drop dragons to 5 man and give them no upgrades.

 I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:
Massively in favour of shuriken cannons. You get 3x the shots for a few more points.

Fewer points, actually, and it's not 3x the shots. I'm already paying for the hull-mounted Shur. Cannons, even if I run Star Cannons on top. That means I'm deciding between 5 shots per Vyper (at +15 points for the unit) and 6 shots (at +0 points).

The only downside is the shorter range. For anything except 2+ saves with a weak/non-existent cover or invulnerable save, the shuriken wins out.

(Analysis by save type snipped out.)

Thanks for that, that is exactly what I was looking for. Doesn't actually make the decision easier, because of the following...

Light vehicles? Shurikens are massively better. +1 on the damage chart is nothing near as good as 3x the shots.

Shuriken cannons are just far more versatile. Unless you know/suspect you are facing armies composed mostly or entirely with 2+ saves, why would you ever take starcannons?

The list as a whole is already demolishing light vehicles. Literally every unit in the army or its transport has S6 weapons or higher. So, vehicles aren't really a concern with this list so I'm not taking that part of the AP2 into account. Similarly, the save examples that you listed were great, but didn't cover Terminators... which is what I'm actually most concerned with. I'm expecting at least one GK Termie-list player (who kept me from winning the September tournament), a possible Deathwing player, and perhaps Centurions finally making their appearance. So a 2+/5++ is pretty much what I'd be bringing the Starcannons for; everything else I just throw more dakka at and wait for them to roll sufficient 1's.

The Vypers are a supplemental part of the list, as I already have a plethora of S6+ weapons, a large portion of which have SemiRending (Bladestorm or Monofilament). The decision I've still yet to make is whether I want them to just be more of what I already have or slightly differently-tuned tool for different situations. I'll be prepping the weapons for both builds (as I transferred the old magnetized Shuriken Cannons to my newer Wave Serpent builds) so I can decide right before the tournament if I really wanted to.

(Note: that doesn't mean I'm going to wait until I see who is showing up. That's just wrong. )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PredaKhaine wrote:3 times the shots? You get two shots with a starcannon and 3 shots with a shuriken cannon don't you?

I think he assumed I wasn't running the underslung Shuriken Cannons with the Starcannons. Common mistake to make, as it's not entirely ideal, but they're not War Walkers. (As an aside, if I had 3 War Walker models this discussion would be moot, as I'd totally be running them with dual Starcannons in that case.)

ninjafiredragon wrote:one thing is in your list i would drop dragons to 5 man and give them no upgrades.

Any particular reason why? My Dragons aren't just Tank Hunters (though since they're my main Land Raider killing threat, I want to ensure I have enough shots to do that reliably in one go), they're also there to help with killing 2+ save units, so more shots is useful. The Exarch upgrade is actually incredibly efficient, too, as the Exarch upgrade + Fast Shot is actually cheaper than buying another Fire Dragon.

If you're concerned about terminators, I'd go for the starcannons.

against 5 2+/5++ with 6 shuriken cannons giving 18 shots you'll hit with 2 in 3, so thats 12 hits.
Hurting on twos turns it into 10 wounds. 1 or 2 of those should be rending and the rest have a 1 in 6 chance of taking a terminator out. You should be looking at 2-3 dead terminators.
Just the six star cannon shots should match that (shoot with 6 shot, hit with four, hurting on a 2+ so four W and then they make 1 in 3 saves so you're looking at 3ish dead terminators)
Thats not counting the 9 shuriken cannons shots you've still got.
So, you can do the same damage from out of bolter range with the av10 vypers.

Let me know how this works out for you - I've got three unassembled vypers myself

 PredaKhaine wrote:
Let me know how this works out for you - I've got three unassembled vypers myself

Magnetize the turrets. It's so easy with Vypers that there's no reason to not do it, and if you've bought ANY of the recent Wave Serpent kits (to say nothing of a Wraithknight) you probably have far more than enough bits to cover all of your bases, though you might have to figure something else out for the underslung gun (it is neither easy to work with nor really necessary since it'll almost always be a Shur. Cannon). Mine just have a single Guardian Catapult in place since for me, "two guns catapult, one gun cannon" works in almost every situation on the Vypers. (My tanks have properly-sized underslung Cannons, because they are larger models and especially since there are cases when I don't want cannons.)

I've always had good luck with my Vypers, regardless of the loadout. Even before the BS4 and Bladestorm upgrade, they put out enough Dakka while still appearing to be a minor threat that they would usually manage to contribute nicely to the army. Now, with their weapons being better and with the rest of the army being even more threatening, they fit in very well and either do fairly significant damage or draw fire so that something else can do so.

Back on the strategy topic, also factor in that the Vypers will usually be Guided, at least when I am specifically using them to target Termies (I'm only running one Farseer with this list, so I will have to occasionally make choices as to the best place to put the two Guides). Between the Wraithknight, Spiders, Vypers, and Nightspinner, I really wish I had the points to run a second Bike Seer, but I'd have to give up one of the toys. That's part of why I dropped the 2nd Seer (on foot) for the Vypers: wanting more threats rather than simply a force multiplier.

At 1850? You bet that Farseer is getting rolled back in (especially once I can afford to build another Bike-mounted Seer).

Yeah, even though I think I favour the double shuriken cannons, my vypers are magnetised and I think it is the way to go.

If you are already taking the nose-slung shuriken cannon, I would keep cost down and remove inefficiency by just staying with double shuriken. But that's not entirely analytical, I don't really like mixing weapons. Eg with starcannons, you are probably not using the vypers well unless you are staying at 24-36" from your target to stay safe from some return fire.

As long as you are taking the 2nd shuriken cannon, I suppose starcannons or scatter lasers are both acceptable choices. I would still go for 2xshuriken myself.