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 Vain wrote:
It is always weird seeing people from the internet...

BUt... I'm never off the internet :(

I think I'm going to have to skip this one on principle due to mystery unknown shipping costs. That's become a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

Kind of amusing to see painted minis from Wyrd to promote their product.

Not appealing to see a bunch of hockey pucks moving around the table.

They say it wont be that thick, but they should actually show that

 .Mikes. wrote:

 Vain wrote:
It is always weird seeing people from the internet...

BUt... I'm never off the internet :(

Sorry, I meant Ozy in her Totoro onesie. I forget that people can be more than their little avatars. Honestly my mental image of HMBC is of a very dizzy Commissar.

But back to this, thanks for adding the video, that was very helpful.

They're showing the cards for what's unlocked so far.

Gibbering Hordes


Kings Empire


Abyssinia


Cult of the Burning Man


I really like what they're doing with Gibbering Hordes. First up, they're a horde army that plays with roughly the same amount of models as the opponent. Hurray painting queue! Their hordeishness comes from being able to respawn non-commander squads (not champions, which are single model units like the Stormsiren commander).

The Glory mechanic is interesting. Essentially some units have a 2 sided card, the other side is like a boosted up version of the front. Every factions Allegiance card tells you how to go into Glory. Gibbering Hordes you sacrifice a fireteam base from a nearby unit (representing the survival of the fittest aspect of a bunch of alpha predators). Kings Empire does it by wiping out a Fireteam base (representing their reliance on their guns). Cult of the Burning Man discard Shaken tokens (because they're all nuts). Abyssinia by discarding Control cards. Not entirely sure what that represents.

 -Loki- wrote:
Abyssinia by discarding Control cards. Not entirely sure what that represents.

Logistical support? Expending resources to upgrade units in the field, prototypes, extra gear, etc?

Just spitballing here, based almost entirely on a five second glance at the KS page and seeing 'oooh, tech stuff'.

An interesting message from the comments section (bold and italics mine);

@Gorillajoe - If we wanted to structure the kickstarter in a mostly 'one and done' manner, we could have done that easily and blown through goals easily. I'm interested in seeing this grow at the retailer and distributor level, and thus have structured it to do so.
If you feel it's not a good buy in, I respect that. But we've also been very open in the fact that we're not interested in charging along, giving it all away, and tramping on the later market either.
There are a TON of exceptionally great projects that have come through Kickstarter. Some are setup specifically NOT to find their ways into distribution (Kingdom Death - Hey Adam!) and thus are setup the way they are, others are racking in a TON of backing, and giving out boxful of goodies - yet when it comes time for distributors or retailers, few of them go forth from there.
It's a balancing act. Not everyone is going to be pleased with the direction we are taking this - I can respect that. We're trying something new as well - which may or may not work in the manner that we see, but as with anything, gotta try to find out, and we didn't get to where we are by doing the same as everyone else.
-Nathan

Hmmm... (Warning! Blatantly Unfair Comparison Ahead)



I feel a Post Mortem brewing...

I'm fine with the way this KS is going, speaking as someone who's waiting on retail.

Slow and steady - do things small, get things right.

Finding buried treasures in the comments section. Shortly after launch (Dec 14);

Lindsey wrote:@Nickel: I've just been handed a report that we currently do not have any KS exclusives. The Backerkit will allow everyone to adjust, add, or change anything they need in their pledge. Also it seems that the reporter that got me this information has been eaten? Whats happening out there?

To reiterate;

Lindsey wrote:@Robert: Yes as we stand currently there are no exclusive sculpts or alternative figures with this KS.

Hmm, no KS exclusives and limited discount? At least they are standing firm on principle... Oops.

Lindsey wrote:I've just been handed an urgent news flash! It appear there will be KS Special Edition Models being recruited as future stretch goals! It seems each Allegiance will be adding a Special Edition Champion to their team. What this means for the Earth we can only speculate.

Okay, at least we have some solid details.

@Mr. Lucky: Yes the Special Edition Champions will be add-ons.

Well, okay, I mean this thing was so well planned, I'm sure this was decided... oh.

Lindsey wrote:More updates are flooding in from HQ! There will be a KS Special Edition item coming that will be included free as a Stretch Goal. As to it's nature...it seems we will be left in suspense.

At least they aren't scrambling because they didn't understand their market... gol dang it.

Lindsey wrote:Attention Troops! I've just gotten out of a top secret meeting in HQ. We have heard your feedback and we have listened! Keep your eyes peeled for an incoming update regarding stretch goals. We have condensed these goals so that you will get to the Mini Madness that you crave faster. We also want to thank you, our ground troops, for your enthusiasm with this project. As always supporting our games and our community is our top mission!

Total elapsed time? Less then 48 hours.

I don't think they need to give away CMON levels of stuff, but they definitely need to add a bit more than just one or two figures.

I'd like to see those add on prices get brought back to reality though.

I don't see those units flying off the shelf at KS prices, let alone MSRP, considering how many we'd need in a game.

Which then brings us back to the whole PVC vs plastics and why it would've made more sense to do all those hordes in plastic, but alas...

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Finding buried treasures in the comments section. Shortly after launch (Dec 14);

Lindsey wrote:@Nickel: I've just been handed a report that we currently do not have any KS exclusives. The Backerkit will allow everyone to adjust, add, or change anything they need in their pledge. Also it seems that the reporter that got me this information has been eaten? Whats happening out there?

To reiterate;

Lindsey wrote:@Robert: Yes as we stand currently there are no exclusive sculpts or alternative figures with this KS.

Hmm, no KS exclusives and limited discount? At least they are standing firm on principle... Oops.

Lindsey wrote:I've just been handed an urgent news flash! It appear there will be KS Special Edition Models being recruited as future stretch goals! It seems each Allegiance will be adding a Special Edition Champion to their team. What this means for the Earth we can only speculate.

Okay, at least we have some solid details.

@Mr. Lucky: Yes the Special Edition Champions will be add-ons.

Well, okay, I mean this thing was so well planned, I'm sure this was decided... oh.

Lindsey wrote:More updates are flooding in from HQ! There will be a KS Special Edition item coming that will be included free as a Stretch Goal. As to it's nature...it seems we will be left in suspense.

At least they aren't scrambling because they didn't understand their market... gol dang it.

Lindsey wrote:Attention Troops! I've just gotten out of a top secret meeting in HQ. We have heard your feedback and we have listened! Keep your eyes peeled for an incoming update regarding stretch goals. We have condensed these goals so that you will get to the Mini Madness that you crave faster. We also want to thank you, our ground troops, for your enthusiasm with this project. As always supporting our games and our community is our top mission!

Total elapsed time? Less then 48 hours.

So if you're not backing this, is there any reason to do this? This is practically trolling. You've got no investment, and you're just trying to get a rise out of people.

Yes, they ran the last kickstarter badly. Yes, they're adding things to this kicstarter that people are asking for. Do your post mortem when it's finished so people actually intterested can read it?

I like that there are no KS-exclusive figures nor exclusive sculpts. It means that people can actually buy-in to the game at a later date and not end up missing anything. Such things tend to harm the product in the long run.

To this day, I still refuse to buy the Hulk-Smash Hannah model for Malifaux. It's a stupid pose and only exists as such because the RPG kickstarter got the good pose.

I really don't understand why Wyrd does kickstarters.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I don't think they need to give away CMON levels of stuff, but they definitely need to add a bit more than just one or two figures.

I'd like to see those add on prices get brought back to reality though.

I don't see those units flying off the shelf at KS prices, let alone MSRP, considering how many we'd need in a game.

Which then brings us back to the whole PVC vs plastics and why it would've made more sense to do all those hordes in plastic, but alas...

Pricing is my primary concern, it's reaching GW and PP levels or pricing which is concerning. At least Wyrds prices don't change (at least in Australia) so we don't have the annual price hikes to worry about.

PVC vs HIPS... eh. There's benefits and drawbacks to both sides. The drawback to HIPS is Wyrd can't restrain themselves from making complicated dynamic posing, which causes models to be cut into a dozen or more tiny peices.I don't mind having to build a few models in Malifaux, but I'd likely give up with 45-50 models for The Other Side, so I can live with prebuilt PVC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Absolutionis wrote:
I really don't understand why Wyrd does kickstarters.

Because they're not that big. Look how long it took them to get the M1.5E stuff caught up in plastic - over three years.

They want to launch TOS with a decent range of models, which they would have taken a year or more tog et out the door with their usual release schedule. So they're basically using Kickstarter to launch the production of the game, since the development is all but done.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Finding buried treasures in the comments section. Shortly after launch (Dec 14);

Lindsey wrote:@Nickel: I've just been handed a report that we currently do not have any KS exclusives. The Backerkit will allow everyone to adjust, add, or change anything they need in their pledge. Also it seems that the reporter that got me this information has been eaten? Whats happening out there?

To reiterate;

Lindsey wrote:@Robert: Yes as we stand currently there are no exclusive sculpts or alternative figures with this KS.

Hmm, no KS exclusives and limited discount? At least they are standing firm on principle... Oops.

Lindsey wrote:I've just been handed an urgent news flash! It appear there will be KS Special Edition Models being recruited as future stretch goals! It seems each Allegiance will be adding a Special Edition Champion to their team. What this means for the Earth we can only speculate.

Okay, at least we have some solid details.

@Mr. Lucky: Yes the Special Edition Champions will be add-ons.

Well, okay, I mean this thing was so well planned, I'm sure this was decided... oh.

Lindsey wrote:More updates are flooding in from HQ! There will be a KS Special Edition item coming that will be included free as a Stretch Goal. As to it's nature...it seems we will be left in suspense.

At least they aren't scrambling because they didn't understand their market... gol dang it.

Lindsey wrote:Attention Troops! I've just gotten out of a top secret meeting in HQ. We have heard your feedback and we have listened! Keep your eyes peeled for an incoming update regarding stretch goals. We have condensed these goals so that you will get to the Mini Madness that you crave faster. We also want to thank you, our ground troops, for your enthusiasm with this project. As always supporting our games and our community is our top mission!

Total elapsed time? Less then 48 hours.

So if you're not backing this, is there any reason to do this? This is practically trolling. You've got no investment, and you're just trying to get a rise out of people.

Yes, they ran the last kickstarter badly. Yes, they're adding things to this kicstarter that people are asking for. Do your post mortem when it's finished so people actually intterested can read it?

At first I thought that Buzzsaw had just never partook in a KS before and so was just rambling off out of context quotes out of ignorance but now I agree with you, this feels a lot more like trolling/flaming.

The charts for incoming backers and such vs Kingdom Death makes logical sense: This is a campaign set up for long term sustainability with a focus on an ever-growing base and positive relations with the local stores VS a KS that is set on something that is not really local store price friendly and is based on a more one and done board mentality, those charts in that context make perfect sense.

As for the quotes, they seem framed in an oddly negative manner but really just go to show that they are listening to backers and constantly trying to improve their KS. While I have not quite yet jumped on board with the KS (as I have been trying to avoid backing any KS this year) I think they are doing a really good job talking to backers in the comment sections and honestly over the past few days have really improved the KS (Still think they should have shown more freebies up front but it seems once they reach 225,000 freebies will be much more common).

As for the hard plastic vs Resic debate, I get both sides and I am not sure you can please everyone. I can live with Resic as the saved time on assembly will be nice and I am not the best painter in the world anyways so I probably wont notice the quality difference.

Side note also: If I do back this I am leaning between the Kings Army and Abyssinia as they both look great. Anyone want to try to sell me on one side or the other?

Oh look, a Wyrd Kickstarter. If it's anything like the last one, this'll be entertaining. I wonder if they say that they'll be running their Kickstarter differently...

Buzzsaw wrote:An interesting message from the comments section (bold and italics mine);

@Gorillajoe - If we wanted to structure the kickstarter in a mostly 'one and done' manner, we could have done that easily and blown through goals easily. I'm interested in seeing this grow at the retailer and distributor level, and thus have structured it to do so.
If you feel it's not a good buy in, I respect that. But we've also been very open in the fact that we're not interested in charging along, giving it all away, and tramping on the later market either.
There are a TON of exceptionally great projects that have come through Kickstarter. Some are setup specifically NOT to find their ways into distribution (Kingdom Death - Hey Adam!) and thus are setup the way they are, others are racking in a TON of backing, and giving out boxful of goodies - yet when it comes time for distributors or retailers, few of them go forth from there.
It's a balancing act. Not everyone is going to be pleased with the direction we are taking this - I can respect that. We're trying something new as well - which may or may not work in the manner that we see, but as with anything, gotta try to find out, and we didn't get to where we are by doing the same as everyone else.
-Nathan

I feel a Post Mortem brewing...

I look forward to the postmorten.

 -Loki- wrote:
...snip...

So if you're not backing this, is there any reason to do this? This is practically trolling. You've got no investment, and you're just trying to get a rise out of people.

Yes, they ran the last kickstarter badly. Yes, they're adding things to this kicstarter that people are asking for. Do your post mortem when it's finished so people actually intterested can read it?

Because this is an open forum and anyone can offer an opinion for debate? If you don't like what he's saying, there's a little button marked "ignore". Buzzsaw's is posting criticism and opinion which is a lot easier to do if there's a delicate bubble of pretension and pomposity that just itches to be pricked...

 zedmeister wrote:
Because this is an open forum and anyone can offer an opinion for debate? If you don't like what he's saying, there's a little button marked "ignore". Buzzsaw's is posting criticism and opinion which is a lot easier to do if there's a delicate bubble of pretension and pomposity that just itches to be pricked...

Welcome advice. There's room for both.

Wyrd Kickstarter wrote:We are also aware that preassembled miniatures aren't for everyone. Though we won't offer unassembled Other Side models to retail, we will make unassembled version of the units available on our webstore some time after the game goes to retail, giving players who prefer to do assembly the chance to do so.

Just to be clear, there's no way to pledge for these right? Cool that they'll offer them in the future, though

ClockworkChaos wrote:
The charts for incoming backers and such vs Kingdom Death makes logical sense:

Buzzsaw flat out noted it was uncharitable, and he wasn't kidding. KDM 1.5 is the third most funded Gaming (including absurd video games and all) KS to date. It's at 8 fething million dollars, and if there's enough in the community's gas tank for another 800k or so in the next 2.5 weeks (which seems like a given), it'll be the most funded gaming campaign on the site period (and whatever caveats for games that allowed late backing and paypal and whatever). Edit: hell, it's currently #8 on the most funded list of *everything*, and I'm sure it'll gain a spot or three before it ends.

Comparing almost any campaign to KDM is going to be unkind in the latter's favour. Plus it's not exactly an apples to apples lineup in the first place. Yes, both are niche games with minis. One is a solo/coop board game, the other is a competitive wargame. One is following behind a mess of a campaign for an unrelated project, the other is a literal sequel to one of the top 50 most funded gaming campaigns (I think it's number 35 or so?). One will be at retail in the future, the other will not, and the first round of KDM was selling for such absurd prices on the secondary market I'd be shocked if there wasn't substantial speculation going on here. And that's just off the top of my head.

Note, I'm still not a backer, I still have no interest in backing, none of my friends are interested in backing, and frankly my history with Wyrd is bad enough I might never buy another thing they make.

But 'let's compare this average dude with the biggest baddest MMA fighter in the world' is not going to end well for the former dude.

KDM is its own thing, I'm sure there are thousands of Kickstarter campaign comment sections that are tired of hearing about it.

Edit2: that said, the inconsistency in their information is noteworthy. If they want to do their own thing, that's cool. If they want to listen to the backers and adjust things, that's cool too. But that's a lot of back and forth on topics in the span of a couple days. If nothing else I'd say maybe hold off on the messaging a bit and sort things out definitively. It's not like they lack time, they'll probably be in the campaign doldrums for a couple of weeks yet almost regardless of what they do. Measure twice, cut once, as my old carpentry teacher used to say.

I doubt I'll back this but I'm actually impressed by those comments and the campaign management, far more than Poots' handling of KDM thus far. I feel like the KDM success is in spite of his management. Whereas here, Wyrd is trying very hard to be conservative with the long-view while still creating a successful KS (which they're finding out means more than a simple preorder).

Like Forar said, KSing a board game is a whole different world than KSing a wargame. The latter requires community, a perception of growth/success, etc.

If Wyrd even remotely understood "being conservative" or "the long view" they wouldn't have over-extended into a new ambitious game, in an over-crowded market, while their niche success could still use a ton of love and support.

A smart, forward thinking company would've leveraged their success and slowly grow, not jump head first into this cluster-f.

I DO think Malifaux is a very fun, often clever game, and i'd love to see it grow and continue to succeed, but I would wager a serious bet that Otherside will make it to market, immediately peter out, and never be heard from again, to the detriment of Wyrd, within a year of arrival.

What, like
Puppet Wars (until its even more-unsupported reboot)
Evil Baby Orphanage
Showdown
Jetpack unicorn or w/e
That shaman game
That building game
...basically everything they've done other than TTB and Malifaux?

This seems to be heading to the failure category. I tought it would have done a lot better than that

 streetsamurai wrote:
This seems to be heading to the failure category. I tought it would have done a lot better than that

It's funded?

I meant that it doesn,t bode well for the long term future of the game that it is not even getting 250k a few days after the start of the campaign. At this rate, it seems dubious they'll break the 750k barrier, which is what Wrath of Kings got, and it's pretty impossible to find an opponent for WOK.

On the Malifaux front, we have a much improved Alternate sculpt for Lazarus.

That's a huge improvement over the current Lazarus. Given that they say they will talk about how to acquire it later I'm guessing it's not general release. Maybe part of the guilder program?

 -Loki- wrote:
That's a huge improvement over the current Lazarus.

Agreed. The current Lazarus is one of the few miniatures that I've picked up, primed, based and then said to myself "This is just not worth my time - it looks like a cheap action figure". The helmet alone is a huge improvement...This one is much better and I even might get one to complete my Freikorps if it goes on retail.

 Absolutionis wrote:
I really don't understand why Wyrd does kickstarters.

I think they see it as a quick infusion of cash to pay bills for product development.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
This seems to be heading to the failure category. I tought it would have done a lot better than that

It's funded?

It also comes down to expectations from a known brand and company. $200k for a new company kickstarting a new game is incredible. $200k for a company with the size and name recognition of Wyrd is a failure.