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2013/11/04 00:28:21
Subject: Re:Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
I am not talking about that crappy FFS illustration.
But than you are missing the problem. If a harmless illustration of cleavage can and did spawn this kind discussion (which other pictures/miniatures/games may well deserve), than we're facing an irrational hyper-prudish overreaction where literally any depiction of a women in less-than-Taliban-approved-attire is potentially contentious. And that is a serious issue.
Shaming sexual objectification is important. But it shouldn't mean falling into the opposite extreme of vilifying any and all depictions of female skin on principle.
I am not talking about that crappy FFS illustration.
But than you are missing the problem. If a harmless illustration of cleavage can and did spawn this kind discussion (which other pictures/miniatures/games may well deserve), than we're facing an irrational hyper-prudish overreaction where literally any depiction of a women in less-than-Taliban-approved-attire is potentially contentious. And that is a serious issue. .
Zweischneid wrote: Because it's just a cleavage. Like a Catachan fighter wearing, for varieties sake, a mustache perhaps. A cleavage is something you happen to find occasionally on female characters, as you'd occasionally might find a mustache on a male character.
I never saw a Catachan with a mustache, and I think it would look very bad. It really doesn't work well with their style.
Zweischneid wrote: Interpreting excessive sexual meaning into it as you just did again is your obsessively prudish bias
So I'm a prude who also happens to love this kind of things ?
Does my prude level change with the phases of the moon, or something like that ? Please, care to explain to me why my prudishness doesn't prevent me from enjoying Rodriguez movies, among other things ?
When you are done with that, please explain to me why my prudishness doesn't even make me react negatively to the dark eldar succubus models !
Zweischneid wrote: And if the female inquisitor's cleavage is off "in the context", than so is the male inquisitor's impractical hair "in the (same) context".
The Inquisitor's long white hair go well with the idea of an old, wizened, eccentric guy. It reinforces the Inquisitor's character. Hence, cool.
Went there once. Didn't noticed that much cleavage on women. But I saw some statue of Robin Hood, IIRC.
Apple fox wrote: Hybrid I had forgotten about those, but I realy mean something like a female charecter in full armor and until the lore is out no one knows its a she just looking at the mini
Do you mean Shadowsun ?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2013/11/04 00:32:47
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
azreal13 wrote: Except I used the words "disproportionate" and "reaction" in context of one another
But you also used it alongside a complaint about the amount of posts which were generated, which led to my seeing it as a complaint about the amount of posts.
But if you're tired of this conversation, then we can stop. I only kept replying because you seemed confused about my point and wanted clarification on it.
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
2013/11/04 00:36:51
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
If I had intended to use disproportionate in conjunction in terms of number of posts or pages, I would have said "disproportionate number of posts/pages" not used it in conjunction with the word reaction.
Yes, I'm very tired of this line of discussion, especially as it was predicated on a misunderstanding.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
But anyway, I'd say that the Sisters are up there in terms of women being depicted in sci-fi, I'd certainly put them above a lot of the stuff that Raging Heroes makes. They're fully armoured, and are entirely defined by their beliefs and occupation. They avoid a lot of the usual pitfalls, IMO.
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
2013/11/04 00:39:09
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
What I find hilarious about this topic is I always seem to see a trend of more men being upset at scantily clad women than women themselves are.
But then most women I know are just as fine with having a good look at a buff, half naked guy as the guys I know are quite fine with having a look at an attractive, scantily clad women.
And one of the main reasons being 'but they aren't properly attired for a combat role' makes no sense when half naked, buff 'jungle fighters' are apparently fine when it's the last way you want to dress in a jungle setting.
These topics are always great fun to read.
2013/11/04 00:39:30
Subject: Re:Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
But anyway, I'd say that the Sisters are up there in terms of women being depicted in sci-fi, I'd certainly put them above a lot of the stuff that Raging Heroes makes. They're fully armoured, and are entirely defined by their beliefs and occupation. They avoid a lot of the usual pitfalls, IMO.
Really?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Does my prude level change with the phases of the moon, or something like that ? Please, care to explain to me why my prudishness doesn't prevent me from enjoying Rodriguez movies, among other things ?
It must be.
Even more surprisingly, I find it odd how you keep arguing "context" in 40K yet can accept camp in something like a Rodriguez Zombie movie, which, compared to the all-out-whackyness of the 40K-verse, is bordering on documentary. It's like somebody not minding a leaking roof at home, yet complaining about water-drops out on the open ocean in a small boat during a full-blown hurricane.
Hybrid(on iPad,gets leggy big posts)
I have shadowsun but I mean more like that, hehe brain isn't working 100%.
40k isn't bad at its representing of women, it just lacks enough of them on the table top.
Other company's are better, and others are so much worse, oh so much worse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 00:43:38
2013/11/04 00:42:27
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
-Loki- wrote: What I find hilarious about this topic is I always seem to see a trend of more men being upset at scantily clad women than women themselves are.
On the other hand, how many women are there hanging around here ? Not many, I fear.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2013/11/04 00:43:07
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
This was taken from FFG, but lets stop and consider who GW considered their target audience. It's not adults, it's not females of any sort.
It's pubescent males who want to see boobies.
In fact, the two things that spare us from having the gaming table utterly overrun by this sort of thing is the facts that GW seems to have let go anyone who could sculpt anything even remotely female and their fear that if they go 'too far' Mom and Dad will disapprove of juniors obsession with white metal smut.
Reflect on this : the most expensive 10 pack of minis you will likely find on ebay is the Juan Diaz daemonettes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 00:50:07
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2013/11/04 00:45:13
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
Now, why could that be? Can't they see all the buff muscly dudes that were definitely drawn for their benefit?
Because it is a hobby that mainly appeals to, is mainly manufactured by, and is mainly participated in, by males. Yes there is the odd girl, but they are rare indeed.
NEXT!
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Now, why could that be? Can't they see all the buff muscly dudes that were definitely drawn for their benefit?
Because it is a hobby that mainly appeals to, is mainly manufactured by, and is mainly participated in, by males. Yes there is the odd girl, but they are rare indeed.
NEXT!
That is the point.
It's intentionally geared toward men and therefore shuts out people who could potentially enjoy this awesome hobby the same way others do. Rampant portrayal of women as sexual objects is a result of this and contributes to this being a male dominated hobby when it doesn't have to be.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/04 00:47:43
Thought for the day
2013/11/04 00:46:39
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
-Loki- wrote: What I find hilarious about this topic is I always seem to see a trend of more men being upset at scantily clad women than women themselves are.
On the other hand, how many women are there hanging around here ? Not many, I fear.
Largely, because most women I know disdain the violent aspects of this hobby most of all (far more than the scantily clad stuff). Cue Computer Games. The all-male games tend to be the violent and military-fascist ones, not the sexy ones.
Because war and conflict, as well as liking boobies, are more defined traits in the typical male psyche.
Women tend to be more attracted to less adversarial, more co-operative pastimes, in fact, I was reading an article that cited that aspect of its design as a reason why Candy Crush has been so successful with the female demographics just today.
EDIT
This was a reply to las' last post, but forgot to grab the quote and now he's edited it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 00:49:20
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Apple fox wrote: Hybrid(on iPad,gets leggy big posts)
I have shadowsun but I mean more like that, hehe brain isn't working 100%.
40k isn't bad at its representing of women, it just lacks enough of them on the table top.
Other company's are better, and others are so much worse, oh so much worse.
there's the new dark elf witches. those are really nice, the best female models GW has ever made. and plastic if you want to convert.
2013/11/04 00:50:58
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
This was taken from FFG, but lets stop and consider who GW considered their target audience. It's not adults, it's not females of any sort.
It's pubescent males who want to see boobies.
In fact, the two things that spare us from having the gaming table utterly overrun by this sort of thing is the facts that GW seems to have let go anyone who could sculpt anything even remotely female and their fear that if they go 'too far' Mom and Dad will disapprove of juniors obsession with white metal smut.
The funny thing is I don't think any of the males around that age where I play have any interest in female models for that :p I would find it interest what younger males think about them, as even the sexy ones seem to draw no interest from the ones I know.
Fantasy also is doing both sexy and awsome females well I think slowly.
2013/11/04 00:55:05
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
Well, there is this girl I met at work. Well, I first noticed how she was cool, and how we had lots of common interests. And then, some time later, that she wasn't very physically attractive to me.
Arguably, the first times I saw her was during very short time periods during which I noticed her XKCD (or other geekeries) T-shirt more than anything else, but still !
On a totally unrelated note, I'm 26 and still a virgin. Feel free to use that to “explain” everything or anything I write here, I don't care
Yeah, I'd wager this has a lot to do with your perspective, quite frankly. Honestly, I have trouble believing that your realization that you didn't want to feth her came that much later (most probably you knew it pretty quickly and rationalized it to yourself later), again, simply because that's how were wired.
Since no one commented on the amazing Dark Elf mini posted earlier: wow. Simply stunning. I didn't realize it was a mini till I scrolled down to see the base. I thought it was CG art at first.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Additionally, are there that many of you that actually care if there are females in you hobby? I mean, unless your hobby I orgies or swinging, I can't see why dudes even care.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 00:58:13
2013/11/04 00:59:27
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
Zweischneid wrote: Even more surprisingly, I find it odd how you keep arguing "context" in 40K
I didn't mention anything about context in my last messages. So, no, I don't keep arguing “context”. I did use the word once in one message, merely as a sidenote. Do you even try to understand my point of view ? Why do you stick to your explanation about why I don't like this illustration, when I explicitly tell you it's not the right one, and you do acknowledge that it doesn't make any sense to you ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cincydooley wrote: Honestly, I have trouble believing that your realization that you didn't want to feth her
Did I say that ?
cincydooley wrote: Additionally, are there that many of you that actually care if there are females in you hobby?
Because it's quite sad that half of humanity would be left out of this awesome thing .
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/04 01:03:37
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2013/11/04 01:04:38
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
Well, there is this girl I met at work. Well, I first noticed how she was cool, and how we had lots of common interests. And then, some time later, that she wasn't very physically attractive to me.
Arguably, the first times I saw her was during very short time periods during which I noticed her XKCD (or other geekeries) T-shirt more than anything else, but still !
On a totally unrelated note, I'm 26 and still a virgin. Feel free to use that to “explain” everything or anything I write here, I don't care
Yeah, I'd wager this has a lot to do with your perspective, quite frankly. Honestly, I have trouble believing that your realization that you didn't want to feth her came that much later (most probably you knew it pretty quickly and rationalized it to yourself later), again, simply because that's how were wired.
Since no one commented on the amazing Dark Elf mini posted earlier: wow. Simply stunning. I didn't realize it was a mini till I scrolled down to see the base. I thought it was CG art at first.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Additionally, are there that many of you that actually care if there are females in you hobby? I mean, unless your hobby I orgies or swinging, I can't see why dudes even care.
That's not entirely true, about how people are wired, it can vary quite a lot for people.
I had actuly seen the model before, it's very good.
I actually assume that the people I play with enjoy my company..
That sorta comes of a bit creepy, I assume it's not your intention.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 01:08:20
2013/11/04 01:06:54
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
Additionally, are there that many of you that actually care if there are females in you hobby? I mean, unless your hobby I orgies or swinging, I can't see why dudes even care.
Yeah, because the only thing that females can possibly offer is orgies and swinging.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/04 01:07:23
Thought for the day
2013/11/04 01:09:09
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
Additionally, are there that many of you that actually care if there are females in you hobby? I mean, unless your hobby I orgies or swinging, I can't see why dudes even care.
Yeah, because the only thing that females can possibly offer is orgies and swinging.
Try and at least see the point he was making, rather than jumping in the language.
Many hobbies require another willing participant to be worthwhile, few need that person to be of the opposite gender.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Additionally, are there that many of you that actually care if there are females in you hobby? I mean, unless your hobby I orgies or swinging, I can't see why dudes even care.
Yeah, because the only thing that females can possibly offer is orgies and swinging.
Try and at least see the point he was making, rather than jumping in the language.
Many hobbies require another willing participant to be worthwhile, few need that person to be of the opposite gender.
It has nothing to do with needing anything from anyone. It's about the climate of exclusion that exists toward women in wargaming. cincydooley's post is a perfect example of this.
Thought for the day
2013/11/04 01:15:11
Subject: Re:Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
I did mention earlier that the Repentia have a very good fluff reason for looking like that. They're the insanely devoted zealots who feel that they have failed their god, and desperately seek absolution in their battlefield pennance. Not only does it fit, it's badass!
Though I will admit, I've had my issues with the Repentia before. I did used to worry about what sort of image of the Sisters they gave off to people. But after discussing the matter, the point was made that their fluff really does befit an over the top appearence, and that there's probably always going to be a certain sort of person making those sorts of comments about the Sisters anyway. So I've come to accept their appearence a bit more.
I'm interested to see what new Repentia minis would look like, though. Wondering how GW would redesign them.
-Loki- wrote: And one of the main reasons being 'but they aren't properly attired for a combat role' makes no sense when half naked, buff 'jungle fighters' are apparently fine when it's the last way you want to dress in a jungle setting.
The point there was that at least there was a fluff justification for the appearence of the Catachan, despite its validity being debatable. With the Inquisitor, however, we don't get this.
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
2013/11/04 01:17:37
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
Additionally, are there that many of you that actually care if there are females in you hobby? I mean, unless your hobby I orgies or swinging, I can't see why dudes even care.
Yeah, because the only thing that females can possibly offer is orgies and swinging.
Try and at least see the point he was making, rather than jumping in the language.
Many hobbies require another willing participant to be worthwhile, few need that person to be of the opposite gender.
It has nothing to do with needing anything from anyone. It's about the climate of exclusion that exists toward women in wargaming. cincydooley's post is a perfect example of this.
there is no climate of exclusion. just nerds debating fluff and little plastic men is enough to send a normal girl running before she even takes a close look at the product. sorry to burst your bubble.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 01:18:05
2013/11/04 01:18:10
Subject: Representation of women in miniature games (go-to thread to prevent off-topic on other threads)
Additionally, are there that many of you that actually care if there are females in you hobby? I mean, unless your hobby I orgies or swinging, I can't see why dudes even care.
Yeah, because the only thing that females can possibly offer is orgies and swinging.
Try and at least see the point he was making, rather than jumping in the language.
Many hobbies require another willing participant to be worthwhile, few need that person to be of the opposite gender.
It has nothing to do with needing anything from anyone. It's about the climate of exclusion that exists toward women in wargaming. cincydooley's post is a perfect example of this.
Oh please!
Women aren't excluded, they're not interested!
We have no Wii equivalent, no soft option.
My best friend is a very feminine girl, albeit she likes her tech and will occasionally play a video game. Other than a rare bout of Streetfighter 2 if the opportunity arises, she pretty much loathes anything adversarial, she doesn't like anything with a winner and a loser as such. She would much rather play co-op or within a group. In fact, pretty much every girl friend I have falls into the same basic category.
We play, ignoring any pedantry, wargames. Women just don't have the psychology, in general, to find this as appealing as we do.
I did mention earlier that the Repentia have a very good fluff reason for looking like that. They're the insanely devoted zealots who feel that they have failed their god, and desperately seek absolution in their battlefield pennance. Not only does it fit, it's badass!
Though I will admit, I've had my issues with the Repentia before. I did used to worry about what sort of image of the Sisters they gave off to people. But after discussing the matter, the point was made that their fluff really does befit an over the top appearence, and that there's probably always going to be a certain sort of person making those sorts of comments about the Sisters anyway. So I've come to accept their appearence a bit more.
I'm sorry to break this to you, but the models were created and the fluff designed to fit. GW just wanted to make boobies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/04 01:19:34
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
azreal13 wrote: Women aren't excluded, they're not interested!
I should point out that women aren't a hive mind.
I've come across plenty of women who are into nerd stuff like vidya gaems and 40K. In regards to wargaming specifically, just look around this site. There are lots of women who like wargaming.
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far.
Thought for the day 
(not associated with 
Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far. 
but I mean more like that, hehe brain isn't working 100%.
?
.