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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





I actuly don't have a issue with cheesecake models, most I find quite nice even, others I look at and find them disgusting( in mins proportion and unatractive) . What I find the problem is that quite often that's all we get the chance at.

What's exclusionary is the attitude, very difernt subject that often gets dragged into these sorta threads and discussions.

I have the storm giant, I wish I got the other ones but was outside my budget for the kickstarter.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I am confused then...what attitude is conveyed in artwork that is exclusionary?

Beyond that, it is an issue with individuals rather than with the games or the companies. And that is easily dealt with as well, just dont bother with them.

We have several women in our gaming group, and we dont game in stores or other locations. Not because they feel they are objectified by the game mind you, but because the stereotypical bloated, odiferous, gamer types who lurk in many game stores are a good bit annoying to those in our group (no doubt for different reasons, though the assault to your sinuses is universal). Instead we play relaxed games in private residences and avoid that mess.
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu






Yorkshire, England

xruslanx wrote:
 MetalOxide wrote:
Men being constantly portrayed as misogynistic macho shoot first ask questions later has it's negative side effects as well. So quit making it look like women constantly have the short straw, gender stereotyping goes both ways.

How is that negative? Isn't it a good thing that we should expect young men to fight for their country and disregard their own safety for the liberty of others? I don't see why gender stereotyping is wrong when without it, millions of men in 1944 would have just gone "lol cba don't stereotype me" and we'd have got nothing done.

Why should young men be expected to go out and fight the wars? I would make a rubbish soldier; I am not physically strong and I wouldn't have the heart to kill someone, there are plenty of women who are far more suited for it than me.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/13 09:12:06


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 MetalOxide wrote:
xruslanx wrote:
 MetalOxide wrote:
Men being constantly portrayed as misogynistic macho shoot first ask questions later has it's negative side effects as well. So quit making it look like women constantly have the short straw, gender stereotyping goes both ways.

How is that negative? Isn't it a good thing that we should expect young men to fight for their country and disregard their own safety for the liberty of others? I don't see why gender stereotyping is wrong when without it, millions of men in 1944 would have just gone "lol cba don't stereotype me" and we'd have got nothing done.

Why should young men be expected to go out and fight the wars? I would make a rubbish soldier; I am not physically strong and I wouldn't have the heart to kill someone, there are plenty of women who are far more suited for it than me.

wow you'd rather send a woman off to war than put your own life at risk? Better hope we don't have a war or you'd be locked up for your cowardace.

The plural of codex is codexes.
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




 mattyrm wrote:
Remember those Feminista UK chicks who wanted to ban any magazines which had partially disrobed women on? They hated things like Stuff and FHM, even if it was only partial nudity.

Did they go after Cosmo and Vogue, too?

Apple fox wrote:
Eh what ? Do you think women wouldn't be interested in wargaming ?

I think it would be an extraordinarily small proportion.

Do you think there are not men into trashy romance novels ?

I think it's an extraordinarily small proportion. I think they're clearly overwhelmingly marketed to women (in what I presume you would describe as a sexist fashion), and everyone seems to be pretty okay with this.

But if you compare it to romance novels well you have plenty of choice for books and literature.

And there are plenty of choices in tabletop gaming. My girlfriend loves herself some Settlers of Catan.

But at end to attribute a gender to that lack of interest is realy sexist.

Then nature is sexist. Pretending that every single leisure activity in the world would appeal equally to both genders if only that damn rotten patriarchy hadn't gotten in there first and propagandized everything is absurd.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






xruslanx wrote:

wow you'd rather send a woman off to war than put your own life at risk? Better hope we don't have a war or you'd be locked up for your cowardace.

Again, what the feth the gender has to do with this?

   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Crimson wrote:
xruslanx wrote:

wow you'd rather send a woman off to war than put your own life at risk? Better hope we don't have a war or you'd be locked up for your cowardace.

Again, what the feth the gender has to do with this?

Men are expected to fight and die for their country, or do you not agree? That is certainly the culture of the United Kingdom, it may not be the culture where you are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 11:32:37


The plural of codex is codexes.
 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






xruslanx wrote:

Men are expected to fight and die for their country, or do you not agree? That is certainly the culture of the United Kingdom, it may not be the culture where you are.

And that culture is sexist. Assigning people different jobs/duties not based on their individual capabilities but based on their gender is sexist. Just like assigning people different jobs/duties not based on their capabilities but based on their ethnicity is racist. How this can be so hard to get?

   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Crimson wrote:
xruslanx wrote:

Men are expected to fight and die for their country, or do you not agree? That is certainly the culture of the United Kingdom, it may not be the culture where you are.

And that culture is sexist. Assigning people different jobs/duties not based on their individual capabilities but based on their gender is sexist. Just like assigning people different jobs/duties not based on their capabilities but based on their ethnicity is racist. How this can be so hard to get?

It's not sexist, since men and women are not the same. Men do not have wombs, and women do not have the capacity for physical exertion that men do. Men are physically and emotionally more inclined towards warfare than women are, why shouldn't our culture expect them to be warriors?

The plural of codex is codexes.
 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






xruslanx wrote:

It's not sexist, since men and women are not the same. Men do not have wombs, and women do not have the capacity for physical exertion that men do. Men are physically and emotionally more inclined towards warfare than women are, why shouldn't our culture expect them to be warriors?

Stop generalising. Most men are more aggressive than most women, most men are stronger than most women. Still, some women are more aggressive/stronger than some or even most men. To judge individuals based on the averages of some group they happen to belong to, regardless of whether those averages apply to them is bollocks. It's like banning all Asians from playing basketball because on average they're rather short.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 11:50:23


   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Crimson wrote:
xruslanx wrote:

It's not sexist, since men and women are not the same. Men do not have wombs, and women do not have the capacity for physical exertion that men do. Men are physically and emotionally more inclined towards warfare than women are, why shouldn't our culture expect them to be warriors?

Stop generalising.

No. Dividing things into groups is the natural instinct of intelligent species, including humans.


Most men are more aggressive than most women, most men are stronger than most women. Still, some women are more aggressive/stronger than some or even most men. To judge individuals based on the averages of some they group they happen to belong is bollocks. It's like banning all Asians from playing basketball because on average they're rather short.

Well, that's just how I was raised. You might be cool hearing a bump in the night and sending down your pregnant girlfriend to investigate it, but I'm not. I don't even understand your viewpoint really - you must put considerable effort into not differentiating or grouping men and women, certainly my culture is full of (usually accurate) gender stereotypes. Maybe Finland is some fantasy wonderland where women are build like gak brick houses and men are dainty or something.

The plural of codex is codexes.
 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Xrluslanx, you are not being logical. That gender stereotypes exist, doesn't mean they should.

Judge people as individuals, not as their gender. How hard can that really be?

   
Made in gb
Multispectral Nisse




Luton, UK

Please stop embarrassing the rest of us in the UK by claiming to represent "our culture".

Thanks.

“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.” 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Crimson wrote:
Xrluslanx, you are not being logical. That gender stereotypes exist, doesn't mean they should.

Judge people as individuals, not as their gender. How hard can that really be?

I never said that people shouldn't be judged as individuals. If I were a less dignified poster, I would call that a straw man .

I am simply saying that it is a man's duty to protect his family and his country. That's not the same as "well she's a woman so obviously she's ditsy". Hell, my friend's girlfriend likes me because I'm one of the few people she talks to who doesn't assume that, being a woman, she's a dumbass. Similarly I have male friends who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, but that doesn't change anything - men are still men, women are still women.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Riquende wrote:
Please stop embarrassing the rest of us in the UK by claiming to represent "our culture".

Thanks.

I could say some very hurtful things about men who are willing to have women fight for them. But I won't stoop to your level.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 12:08:52


The plural of codex is codexes.
 
   
Made in ie
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

xruslanx wrote:
I could say some very hurtful things about men who are willing to have women fight for them. But I won't stoop to your level.


Why? If the woman is the better warrior, why not have her do the fighting?

You're assuming because she's a woman, she's inferior, and that's sexist.
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Nisse




Luton, UK

xruslanx wrote:
I could say some very hurtful things about men who are willing to have women fight for them. But I won't stoop to your level.


Oh, I see my mistake now, I shouldn't have bothered addressing you. Sorry for wasting your time, causing you to type out such drivel in response! I'll leave you alone from now on, you can direct your drivel elsewhere.

Everybody else, please don't conflate xruslanx's views with that of the majority of the UK. Whatever he claims, he's not speaking for the populace and his views on 'our culture' are not ones I recognise. His views are entirely his own and not backed up by anything other than his own sense of self-importance.

“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.” 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




 Riquende wrote:
xruslanx wrote:
I could say some very hurtful things about men who are willing to have women fight for them. But I won't stoop to your level.


Oh, I see my mistake now, I shouldn't have bothered addressing you. Sorry for wasting your time, causing you to type out such drivel in response! I'll leave you alone from now on, you can direct your drivel elsewhere.

Everybody else, please don't conflate xruslanx's views with that of the majority of the UK. Whatever he claims, he's not speaking for the populace and his views on 'our culture' are not ones I recognise. His views are entirely his own and not backed up by anything other than his own sense of self-importance.

you think that a willingness to place my life and safety on the line for others stems from a 'sense of self-importance'?

Yeah this discussion is clearly going nowhere.

The plural of codex is codexes.
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Then drop it.


The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




Sounds like the UK collectively needs to hit the gym.
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





I see now why they had to invent the Press Gangs.


Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
>Raptors Lead the Way < 
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu






Yorkshire, England

 Seaward wrote:
Sounds like the UK collectively needs to hit the gym.
America is in a far greater need for gym memberships.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 13:18:33


 
   
Made in us
Devastating Dark Reaper




 azreal13 wrote:

In addition, in 25 years of involvement in the hobby, with the exception of the odd CCG player, I've never encountered an active female gamer, so to say it is a shared hobby is a bit of a misnomer. That's just IME of course, but that is precisely as valid as yours.


Seriously? Maybe it's because I count RPGs as part of the hobby, but the percentage of female gamers I've seen is in the 10-15% at least. Though a lot more of them play RPGs and CCGs from what I've seen. Saying you only met one means either the community you're in is very different or you didn't look very hard.

I've seen this same fight with almost exactly the same grog pushback in RPG art. For a long time it was impossible to find non-sexualized females there, and even now it's pretty hard to find depictions that aren't in some way sexualized though things seem to be improving there along with depictions of people of color. The odd thing to me with is that boob plate in power armour (or really any bulk armour) just comes off as dumb. The main differences should be heads for things like female Cadians, Sisters, or Craftworld Eldar. Anyone who's been to a military post recently has seen a female security guard and it's immediately obvious that even that light (for 40K) body armour they're wearing covers up their secondary sex characteristics pretty well. Power or terminator armour should be unnoticeable without an open head. That's probably why there are a decent number of complaints about the fetish style attire on the Sisters.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Seaward wrote:
 mattyrm wrote:
Remember those Feminista UK chicks who wanted to ban any magazines which had partially disrobed women on? They hated things like Stuff and FHM, even if it was only partial nudity.

Did they go after Cosmo and Vogue, too?

Apple fox wrote:
Eh what ? Do you think women wouldn't be interested in wargaming ?

I think it would be an extraordinarily small proportion.

Do you think there are not men into trashy romance novels ?

I think it's an extraordinarily small proportion. I think they're clearly overwhelmingly marketed to women (in what I presume you would describe as a sexist fashion), and everyone seems to be pretty okay with this.

But if you compare it to romance novels well you have plenty of choice for books and literature.

And there are plenty of choices in tabletop gaming. My girlfriend loves herself some Settlers of Catan.

But at end to attribute a gender to that lack of interest is realy sexist.

Then nature is sexist. Pretending that every single leisure activity in the world would appeal equally to both genders if only that damn rotten patriarchy hadn't gotten in there first and propagandized everything is absurd.


Oh so miniture wargaming is for men then, got cha..
There isn't much about it that's masculine that isn't attributive buy culture.
Also there is plenty of romance style novels written more for men.
   
Made in us
Imperial Admiral




Apple fox wrote:
Oh so miniture wargaming is for men then, got cha..

No idea who it's "for," but it's pretty clear who likes it more.

There isn't much about it that's masculine that isn't attributive buy culture.

Uh huh. Sure.

Tell you what, if you're so certain there's an army of under-served female would-be wargamers out there, it sounds like you've just recognized a multi-million dollar market. I wish you joy of the insane money you'll be making after receiving a small start-up loan to get your can't-fail business going.

I'm never going to understand why you guys think a business would prefer to remain "sexist" - and yes, it deserves the quotes - than make more money. If the market existed, it'd be served.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






xruslanx wrote:

I am simply saying that it is a man's duty to protect his family and his country.

Why? Why is it not duty of everyone who is capable?

That's not the same as "well she's a woman so obviously she's ditsy". Hell, my friend's girlfriend likes me because I'm one of the few people she talks to who doesn't assume that, being a woman, she's a dumbass.

Oh, how mighty progressive of you!

Similarly I have male friends who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, but that doesn't change anything - men are still men, women are still women.

So people should be treated differently regardless of their individual capabilities based on their gender alone? Do you realise that this is what sexism means? I'm sure you wouldn't dare to suggest same practice regarding ethnicity.

   
Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

 Seaward wrote:
Tell you what, if you're so certain there's an army of under-served female would-be wargamers out there, it sounds like you've just recognized a multi-million dollar market. I wish you joy of the insane money you'll be making after receiving a small start-up loan to get your can't-fail business going.

I'm never going to understand why you guys think a business would prefer to remain "sexist" - and yes, it deserves the quotes - than make more money. If the market existed, it'd be served.

I think it'd be an interesting venture for sure, but I don't think it's sustainable.

And Crimson, a mod has already used his mod voice to drop said subject.

DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Yes, let's follow RedS8n's lead on that branch of the conversation please.

   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

 MetalOxide wrote:
I would make a rubbish soldier; I am not physically strong and I wouldn't have the heart to kill someone, there are plenty of women who are far more suited for it than me.


Don't worry mate, I am a colossus of the battlefield and count as ten men, so I can carry you!

Secondly, don't sell yourself short, if some big bloke in a vest was booting your door in every morning and forcing you to train, I bet you would get fit pretty quickly. Men will always be better suited to it than women, by simple biological engineering.

You are much stronger than equally unfit women who are the same height and weight as you, this whole bad-ass women thing is a Hollywood construct which has the unfortunate side effect of making of tiny skinny gorgeous women who look like Scarlett Johansson get drunk and then pick fights with men and promptly get knocked out. In my thirty some years of drinking heavily in some of the worlds most honking places I've seen women throw punches at men on countless occasions, and on every single one of them, the women have always gotten chinned, usually with one blow, after they have been allowed to throw 20+

Ive also seen some get chinned after only throwing one or two as well mind, or get twatted for no good reason, some blokes are not very pleasant, but the result is always the same. If women are so strong and tough, why is hitting a woman so (rightly) reviled? Its because it is bullying, picking on someone naturally weaker.

And even if some militant feminist turns up and mentions someone like Gina Carano, a man of equal height and weight would absolutely punch her face in, regardless of whether she beat Tatum Channing in a movie.

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Seaward wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
Oh so miniture wargaming is for men then, got cha..

No idea who it's "for," but it's pretty clear who likes it more.

There isn't much about it that's masculine that isn't attributive buy culture.

Uh huh. Sure.

Tell you what, if you're so certain there's an army of under-served female would-be wargamers out there, it sounds like you've just recognized a multi-million dollar market. I wish you joy of the insane money you'll be making after receiving a small start-up loan to get your can't-fail business going.

I'm never going to understand why you guys think a business would prefer to remain "sexist" - and yes, it deserves the quotes - than make more money. If the market existed, it'd be served.


Not at all, and well missing the entire point...

   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

Apple fox wrote:


Not at all, and well missing the entire point...



What is the point Apple? I have kinda missed it as well.

The companies are just making what sells, didnt you see my Diet Coke analogy?

If they noticed that mostly women drink Diet Coke, what is wrong with putting half naked men on the adverts?

So they noticed that mostly men play wargames, so they make half naked models, it isn't sexism is it, its just marketing!

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
 
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