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*disclaimer: this is not a rant or complaint thread. Just a (very late) observation.

Well, I haven't so much as *seen* an Eldar player all year. Yes, I'm serious. So, naturally, I figured the book isn't as crazy as people have said. I've watched lots of battle reports and seen players with Wave Serpent spam win lots of games, and I've seen some army lists and tactics on Eldar. So here I am, months after the darn codex is released, looking at a Codex. Serpent Shields are wow, and I'm just now getting over the shock of reading their rules. Not really the shock at "cheese" or anything like that, at all. More like "I am so happy I don't have to stand across the table from an army with 6-7 of them."

I am absolutely blown away at how there are no Eldar players in my area. I have no effing clue how my army could possibly take out those vehicles without making sweeping changes in my list. I suppose my only "anti-tank" is 1.) Rolling Doombolt on some guys 2.) Screamers and 3.) Vector-striking like all hell with the two drakes.

So here is my ultimate question: Why do some people say "you need moar Wave Serpents" if someone already has three at 1850? I'd shake in my dust boots if I saw three at 1850.

-Bro

Espeically considering your playing 1k sons -- which are one of the worst matchups vs wave serpents.

You play Daemons with Screamers and you're shocked at how good Wave Serpents are?

Do you realize what you can do with your Screamers? You could be in for a nice surprise.

I realize what I can do with my Screamers, but with only one Herald of Tzeentch because I only use them as Allies and no Fateweaver to re-roll Grimoire tests, it's not as dangerous as people think because half the time I'm not even activating the grimoire or getting Forwarning.

Yeah I agree. If you consider the points you have to put in screamerstar, the chance that grimoire doesn't work, or that you don't get forewarning, I'd say Wave Serpents are way more dependable. I've only gotten in the hobby but I knew I was going to play DE for sometime. What do I do once I see people saying "grab more wave serpents"? Go and buy an Eldar Battleforce as allies.

Indeed!

 Brometheus wrote:

So here is my ultimate question: Why do some people say "you need moar Wave Serpents" if someone already has three at 1850? I'd shake in my dust boots if I saw three at 1850.

I think it's because, when building list for tournaments, a lot of players feel the need to maximise the potential of their army, and take maximum advantage of units that are above average. So while 3 is good (great even), if there is an option to take more some players feel they have to. In a way it makes sense, as if you bring 3 and face someone with none, you'll likely win, but if you have the same list against a guy with 4 or more, then you're at a disadvantage. It's a case of taking the best possible, rather than what's 'good enough'.

It was the same with Vendettas and IG or Crons with Scythes when 6th Ed came out, to the point where the other FA options (IG) and HS options (Crons), most of which are actually quite good, might as well not have existed, just because people felt that there was a chance they'd end up facing a list with more of those fliers than they had, and would lose against it. The mindset of players at this level is to take the largest amount of the best units. There are many more examples, like Chaos with 3 Drakes and Tau with 3 Riptides.

I would also add that this is really only prevalent among tournament gamers, and a larger amount of people playing at a casual would be more than content with 3 or even less. I know that I would if I played eldar.

My regular Eldar opponent makes the mistake of shooting his Wave Serpents at the biggest threat to him, even if it's something that can shrug the fire off easily. Most notably, my Nob Bikers (4+ cover against scatter laser, 4+ armor against shield shooting) and my Bloodthirster who just stayed in the air until the time was right for him to strike.

don't serpents ignore cover?

Makumba wrote:
don't serpents ignore cover?

Only shield shots scatter laser don't/

Makumba wrote:
don't serpents ignore cover?

Sure they do but they are AP-. Doesn't do you any good to ignore someones cover save if their armor save is just as good.

Nob Bikers meet Night Spinners

I am learning a lot from all this..

Yeah but the thing is both Eldar armies really lack ignore cover weapons. The Serpent Shield is a really good weapon because of this for Eldar as well. Although, when they shoot with the shield a huge bullseye appears on top of it.

Yeah they get a huge bullseye on them, just like any other tank.

I've had probably 70% of my games in 6th against Eldar and I'm at the point where I refuse to play against them if they are spamming those things. 2 Is just about manageable...

AP- regardless, when you have 3 of them trying to focus down a squad of troops, for me PM usually, that is a huge amount of shots to survive. Not to mention if they fire their scatter lasers first, they can re-roll the misses.

With the amount of AP-2/3 weapons they have on other things too like, War-walkers and then using Battle Focus, it's too much in my opinion.

It is not fun playing against them with those kinds of lists. So, to answer your question Brometheus, people say "Need moar Wave Serpents", ibecause that way they can almost guarantee an early win with very overpowered units. Anyone that does this needs a lesson in sportsmanship.

oraj wrote:
Yeah but the thing is both Eldar armies really lack ignore cover weapons. The Serpent Shield is a really good weapon because of this for Eldar as well. Although, when they shoot with the shield a huge bullseye appears on top of it.

Umm Nightspinners and Swooping Hawk grenade packs anyone? Both of which are great against armies you actually need to ignore cover against. If the army is rocking a 3+ save you typically don't need any ignores cover weapons. The only exceptions being Ravenwing or White Scars.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

[quote=Reptile[5iN] 561386 6216132 c23067932e324988a0ff39f4cf4fb9b9.png]Yeah they get a huge bullseye on them, just like any other tank.

I've had probably 70% of my games in 6th against Eldar and I'm at the point where I refuse to play against them if they are spamming those things. 2 Is just about manageable...

AP- regardless, when you have 3 of them trying to focus down a squad of troops, for me PM usually, that is a huge amount of shots to survive. Not to mention if they fire their scatter lasers first, they can re-roll the misses.

With the amount of AP-2/3 weapons they have on other things too like, War-walkers and then using Battle Focus, it's too much in my opinion.

It is not fun playing against them with those kinds of lists. So, to answer your question Brometheus, people say "Need moar Wave Serpents", ibecause that way they can almost guarantee an early win with very overpowered units. Anyone that does this needs a lesson in sportsmanship.

If you're actually using them as a dedicated transport, to transport troops, like intended then I wouldn't moan too much about that. I just hate people that load them up with a naked unit and use it to just move the minimum in the backfield for the jink save and shoot stuff.

I like your idea about making it a one use upgrade at a reduced cost. Make it a bit more tactical, extra shots or keep that annoying 'treat all pens as a glance on a 2+'

x13rads wrote:

oraj wrote:
Yeah but the thing is both Eldar armies really lack ignore cover weapons. The Serpent Shield is a really good weapon because of this for Eldar as well. Although, when they shoot with the shield a huge bullseye appears on top of it.

Umm Nightspinners and Swooping Hawk grenade packs anyone? Both of which are great against armies you actually need to ignore cover against. If the army is rocking a 3+ save you typically don't need any ignores cover weapons. The only exceptions being Ravenwing or White Scars.

[

Yeah Nightspinners are cool and they also take up a HS slot. That is quite a thing for players like me who bring Eldar as allies. A Wave Serpent is much much more useful than either of those choices. I don't spam them anyways and I certainly don't load up bare Dire Avenger squads in them. I need troops that can sit objectives and Dire Avengers with the invul save work just fine. As a DE/Eldar player I'd hate to face more than 3 wave serpents even with the ridiculous amount of str8 ap2 shots I can bring to the table.

Thanks again for all the input, fellas. This is a healthy discussion.

Well, the reason for ''the more Serpents the better'' is the Lanchester square law which basically says that if you double the number of tanks, the enemy as to provide a four-fold number of anti-tank weapons.
This generally holds for shooting. In cc, tanks are very vulnerable in this edition.

[quote=Reptile[5iN]] Yeah they get a huge bullseye on them, just like any other tank.

I've had probably 70% of my games in 6th against Eldar and I'm at the point where I refuse to play against them if they are spamming those things. 2 Is just about manageable...

AP- regardless, when you have 3 of them trying to focus down a squad of troops, for me PM usually, that is a huge amount of shots to survive. Not to mention if they fire their scatter lasers first, they can re-roll the misses.

With the amount of AP-2/3 weapons they have on other things too like, War-walkers and then using Battle Focus, it's too much in my opinion.

It is not fun playing against them with those kinds of lists. So, to answer your question Brometheus, people say "Need moar Wave Serpents", ibecause that way they can almost guarantee an early win with very overpowered units. Anyone that does this needs a lesson in sportsmanship.

You'd think Kelly would have learned the lesson about overpowered skimmers from the last book and the flying circus nightmares

Apparently he just switched which skimmer tank the problem would be on.

Yeah, I only own one army, and will only ever own one army. Even as it stands, I find myself spending time painting BA, but actually playing Starcraft. Matches are 20-40 min, and units are balanced. The new marine book is just so...... meh.

 Vaktathi wrote:
You'd think Kelly would have learned the lesson about overpowered skimmers from the last book and the flying circus nightmares

Apparently he just switched which skimmer tank the problem would be on.

Yeah, have a look at Falcons in the 4th edition, almost indistructable. Kelly always seems to give Eldar an edge.

Which I'm happy for.

Eldar have been crap for like 10 years. Same with Tau.

Everytime some other player cries about them, I smile.

.. except for Dark Angel and Sisters players. I just feel bad for them.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Which I'm happy for.

Eldar have been crap for like 10 years. Same with Tau.

Everytime some other player cries about them, I smile.

.. except for Dark Angel and Sisters players. I just feel bad for them.

Methinks your memory-fu is rather weak in this instance, both Tau and Eldar were very strong in both 3rd and 4th editions, it was only 5th where they weren't routinely top tier and even then only after some time into 5E.

3E Eldar had starcannon spam, ranger disruption talbes, etc, 4E Eldar dominated the game very hard until 5E came out, and Tau were routinely very strong throughout 3rd and 4th.

I actually did not get into 40K until 5th edition.

I assumed 5th edition lasted ten years, because I am a young person and anything lasting more than 3 years might as well be a decade for me.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Which I'm happy for.

Eldar have been crap for like 10 years. Same with Tau.

Everytime some other player cries about them, I smile.

.. except for Dark Angel and Sisters players. I just feel bad for them.

This is not the way to run a *good* game. The rotating wheel of "LOL, my codex ROFL stomps you!" is not good for the people on the top, or on the bottom. As usual, most good games will be between two middle tier codices.

Oh, and Eldar STILL have karma to pay back for 2nd. This edition makes Eldar the most consistently strong list in 40K imo.

5E lasted almost exactly 4 years, from summer 2008 to summer 2012. Not too long, but yes more than 3 years. That said, it's also the only edition where Eldar haven't ridden the top or near it most of the time (barring RT). Eldar were so ridiculous in 2nd they forced the creation of 3rd

Martel732 wrote:


This is not the way to run a *good* game.

It's not.

But, that's how the game is run.

I'm just glad that the wheel at least turns. Every army has its edition in the sun.

... except Dark Angels and Sisters.

 Vaktathi wrote:
5E lasted almost exactly 4 years, from summer 2008 to summer 2012. Not too long, but yes more than 3 years. That said, it's also the only edition where Eldar haven't ridden the top or near it most of the time (barring RT). Eldar were so ridiculous in 2nd they forced the creation of 3rd

The Triad of Doom in 2nd were Tyranids, Eldar, and CSM. All other lists might as well not have shown up. Maybe Ork Pulsa Rokkitt spam. Maybe. But everyone else, including the vaunted Space Wolves basically had no hope.