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You've gone back to misunderstanding with your original point...and made this conversation completely irrelevant.

Unsubscribed from thread.

If there's a misunderstanding, then it's not for lack of trying on my part. I've asked you several times for clarification, but it doesn't seem to be forthcoming.

I'm sorry if I've somehow upset you, but I don't know how else to say it.

Carapace at 4 points is "good"?!

Guys, you are getting 9 points for carapace and bolter.

You know what also got a 4+ save and costs 9 points? fire warriors.

If your henchmen aren't cheap, or do something special-you might as well be playing tau FW spam.


You want bolters for firepower, and monkys for upgrades (2 only, above that it actually gets worse) and special weapons. the bolter dudes are there as meatshields to begin with, and with a bit of luck they get a 4+ armor or 5+ invul. (or even both), or maybe improved guns.
Now, if the new inqusition codex would drop the armor prices a bit, then they may become a worthy investment. right now-they are just too expensive. 4 points is too much for 5+ to 4+, and 8 points for a 3+ is outright wasteful. if they were 3 and 6 points respectively, it would have been a tough call.

BoomWolf, comparing across codexes isn't always useful but here you make a good point.

To me, cheap and efficient henchmen are bolters (maybe stormbolters) and special weapons (pretty much just plasma though). If an inquisitor is babysitting a squad Servitors are auto-include there. The rest is gravy and too much of it ruins the points efficiency of henchmen.

With that said, I still like to run psyker henchmen because I think they're funny, erratic as heck, occasionally awesome, occasionally terrible, but fun. I also run Jokero sometimes but don't think they're the best deal either.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
Adding extra armor onto Warrior Acolytes is a TERRIBLE idea. The whole reason henchmen are good is because they are cheap. One guy with a bolter is 5 points. 5 points! And with a stormbolter 7 points. If you start throwing armor on these guys they will go from amazing points value to meh in no time flat.


PS - Don't ever take laspistol acolytes (4 points each) unless you literally don't have the points to take the bolter guys. The bolter acolytes are so much better for one more measly point.

Opinion.

I and many others have run warriors with increased armor to great effect.

Anecdotal evidence.

The fact that you blanketly state that it worked well for you doesn't automatically make it a good idea. What did you play against in each game? How good was your opponent? What missions did ye play? How were the dice? These are just some of the factors that go into the experience of a game, and none of them are ever the same. I'm confident that I could beat a full 1850pts Marine list run by a 12yr old that has only bought starter boxes for his army with just two Wraithknights, but that doesn't mean I am confident I could bring them to a tournament and win with just them.

Neither does it make it a bad one. The variables you listed are certainly factors in list-building, but often they are more helpful that just considering units in a vacuum. I find that taking a unit in context is always more useful than just assuming the person stating/asking is playing at the most competitive levels or against the most common lists. The variables are what makes a unit good or bad, far more than pure mathematics, and vary on a player-to-player basis. Applying a 'one size fits all' mentality is not as useful in my opinion. For example, my meta is particularly low on AP3 as I'm currently one of only 2 MEQ players, and we also use a lot more LOS-blocking terrain than it seems a lot of groups use. I don't see Tau or Eldar a lot, and no Heldrakes have ever been used against me. As such, I find my marines far more durable than the internet suggests at times. This doesn't mean my 'anecdotal evidence' or experience is useless just because I don't play against those, any more than it makes anyone's advice valid just because they play a tournament. Anecdotal evidence can't just be dismissed.

So while to many increasing armour may be useless, to others it can be exceptionally helpful. On the whole, I'll take durability before firepower, as a weaker gun firing for 4 turns is better in my opinion than an amazing gun firing for one. Yes, 5-point bolter acolytes are amazing value for points offensively, but have all the durability of a small fly. That 'bang for your buck' is useless when they get off one round of shooting before dying in seconds, especially when the squad caps at 12 models (and I'm not going to rely on one Crusader to up the survivability that much). So in that case I value the added durability far more than damage-per-point efficiency. If it were IG and I could take squad of 30, then numbers would come first, but 12 T3 5+sv are far too easy to kill.

None of this changes what are and are not competitive choices in any given army. And contrary to what you say, yes, they are mathematics, from the probability of common dice rolls to how efficient a unit is for their points. Not everybody plays this way, nor is there any requirement to, and it isn't even a better or worse way of playing, but saying what's competitive is dependent on things like the player's style is incredibly conceited. The issue you aren't seeing here is that just because something is good enough to get by in a certain situation or environment doesn't make it just good; the good stuff is what works all the time.

Also, whereas your altered meta mightn't automatically make your anecdotal evidence useless, that's only because it is already useless, just like all anecdotal evidence is useless. The apple-pie notion that everybody is right in some way just isn't true, not to mention that the real killer is that anecdotal evidence is exaggerated in some way in the majority of cases. If anecdotal evidence should always be given credibility as you suggest, then why bother with hard facts? Why make a proper argument when you can just make something up knowing that people will believe it? And that's only one of the major flaws in your notion.

This isn't a tangent I really want to go down, but I'm still not seeing why all anecdotal evidence is useless. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the variables are stated (like I have done) then anecdotal evidence (or experience as they are really the same thing) can be just as valuable as pure maths, and in many cases more so. The same variables that affect anecdotal evidence also affect the usefulness of maths, as, for example, the stats for a unit's chances to kill a riptide is irrelevant in a meta where riptides are not seen.

There are too many variables in this game for mathematics in isolation to be of any real use unless you are considering a national/worldwide optimised meta, where the probabilities of certain occurrences and the variation in lists, terrain and missions are much slimmer. As I am not a part of that meta, a large amount of maths is really no more useful to me than some anecdotal evidence. I value both, but in this case I think experience will trump mathematics. Just my opinion, I can see how you won't agree but as I say, I'd like to avoid dragging this thread further off topic.

BoomWolf wrote:Carapace at 4 points is "good"?!

Guys, you are getting 9 points for carapace and bolter.

You know what also got a 4+ save and costs 9 points? fire warriors.

If your henchmen aren't cheap, or do something special-you might as well be playing tau FW spam.


You want bolters for firepower, and monkys for upgrades (2 only, above that it actually gets worse) and special weapons. the bolter dudes are there as meatshields to begin with, and with a bit of luck they get a 4+ armor or 5+ invul. (or even both), or maybe improved guns.
Now, if the new inqusition codex would drop the armor prices a bit, then they may become a worthy investment. right now-they are just too expensive. 4 points is too much for 5+ to 4+, and 8 points for a 3+ is outright wasteful. if they were 3 and 6 points respectively, it would have been a tough call.

Yes, I could just use fire warriors, but then I wouldn't be playing an Inquisition army, which is the whole point of this thread. As I have said before, I am more than happy with the cost and what I get for it. A price reduction would be great, but the current cost still won't prevent me from playing them.

Just to clarify one thing, I am not looking for the most efficient units or the ones that are good regardless of the situation. I just want an army that can hold its own in an EXTREMELY casual meta, so while the discussion that has sprung up over probabilities and stats ect is interesting, it's not overly necessary. To try and drag things back on topic a bit, here's a very rough list (Still no codex handy) based on GK points values but without Coteaz, as the Inquisition book with have non-SC HQ units:

HQ:
Inquisitor with some gear around 70-90 points.

Troops:

8 DCA, 4 Crusaders: 180

8 DCA, 4 Crusaders: 180

6 Psykers, 1 acolyte: 84 points
Rhino: 35

6 Psykers, 1 acolyte: 84 points
Rhino: 35

10 acolytes: 40 (purely for scoring, out of LOS campers)

10 Acolytes with Storm Bolters and carapace armour, 2 Jokearo: 140 (attach to Inq)

SM allies:

Librarian (pyromancy): 65

9 tac marines, flamer: 131
Drop Pod: 35

10 Tac marines, Vet sgt with power sword, melta, ML: 195
Drop Pod: 35

IronClad Dread with HKM: 145
Drop Pod:35

Total: 1500ish.

This is obviously only a rough draft, but any thoughts are welcome. At this stage, pretty much anything can be changed around (and I'm thinking about swapping the Ironclad for a Vindicare assuming they're in the codex)

I like it. Good mix of stuff.

What do the DCA and Crusaders do in your army? I know you said casual setting but I don't know how effective they'll be marching up the board.

Super Newb wrote:
I like it. Good mix of stuff.

What do the DCA and Crusaders do in your army? I know you said casual setting but I don't know how effective they'll be marching up the board.

At the moment, no idea . This list has never been tested, but at the moment I'll try them as they are. I can certainly see them doing either very well or terribly, so it's a case of playtesting. I certainly may invest in transports in future. At the moment I'm planning on running them and the rhinos on a flank and using the transports as mobile cover. The Psykers then drop large-blast death on stuff and the assaulty squads charge in to hack up whatever's next. I'm also hoping that the podding marines will take a lot of firepower off them. As I say, it's a matter playtesting to see what works and what doesn't, and working from there.

The list looks crazy fun. Have you thought about throwing a few Plasma Cannon Servitors in with the Psykers, in case the Psykers nuke themselves with Perils? If they all die it's a free kill point given up in YOUR shooting phase, lol. Not to mention if you have them sitting on an objective, shooting away, and all of a sudden: perils. No more objective.

 Homeskillet wrote:
The list looks crazy fun. Have you thought about throwing a few Plasma Cannon Servitors in with the Psykers, in case the Psykers nuke themselves with Perils? If they all die it's a free kill point given up in YOUR shooting phase, lol. Not to mention if you have them sitting on an objective, shooting away, and all of a sudden: perils. No more objective.

The single acolyte was there in each squad to prevent a KP going on perils, the theory being he will just put the rhino in top gear and motor away from the enemy as fast as possible if they perils. I'm not sure I'd add servitors (thanks to mindlock meaning they need to be babysat) but, points-permitting, jokearo can fulfil the same role, adding some more reliable shooting and potentially giving them an invuln or better save to boot. Maybe even a crusader for pure defensive value. It all depends on points and what models I fancy converting up.

Pyromancy? For reals?

Instead of tac marines, put him with some sternguard or assault centurions if you can stomach the looks/fluff of the latter. EDIT: Scratch that, can't take centurions in a drop pod. So no need to suffer.

Do you usually play at 1500 points? Feels painfully small.

 Paradigm wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
The list looks crazy fun. Have you thought about throwing a few Plasma Cannon Servitors in with the Psykers, in case the Psykers nuke themselves with Perils? If they all die it's a free kill point given up in YOUR shooting phase, lol. Not to mention if you have them sitting on an objective, shooting away, and all of a sudden: perils. No more objective.

The single acolyte was there in each squad to prevent a KP going on perils, the theory being he will just put the rhino in top gear and motor away from the enemy as fast as possible if they perils. I'm not sure I'd add servitors (thanks to mindlock meaning they need to be babysat) but, points-permitting, jokearo can fulfil the same role, adding some more reliable shooting and potentially giving them an invuln or better save to boot. Maybe even a crusader for pure defensive value. It all depends on points and what models I fancy converting up.

Bah, my bad, didn't see the acolyte in there.

Question, why Storm Bolters as opposed to regular bolters?

ultimentra wrote:Question, why Storm Bolters as opposed to regular bolters?

Largely because it's more shots at long range, meaning that against the likes of tau, crons and SM I can stay out of their double-tap range while still shooting at maximum effect. It maximises damage output while minimising incoming fire. It also means that, in the unlikely event I need to charge, they can put down a load of shots before going in (situational but still nice). Also, more shots mean that if the apes roll Rending or extra range, I get more benefit from it.

Omegus wrote:Pyromancy? For reals?

Instead of tac marines, put him with some sternguard or assault centurions if you can stomach the looks/fluff of the latter. EDIT: Scratch that, can't take centurions in a drop pod. So no need to suffer.

Do you usually play at 1500 points? Feels painfully small.

Pyromancy was really just an off-the-top-of-my-head idea, I do like it in a flamer pod as the Primaris is essentially an assault Heavy Flamer, and being able to put 2 templates down on the drop (3 if I use a combi on the sarge) is nice. I might go for telepathy for Shriek or on Biomancy for attempted buffs, it just depends on what I'm up against and what mood I'm in. At ML2 I generally go for Pyro Primaris and then Telepathy or Biomancy for the second. I like having a shooting power just so he can still do something in the turn where he drop (can't cast blessings from reserve)

I agree dropping him in with sternguard is a great idea, and something I'll certainly do once I have the models. At the moment, I'm using him with the tacs just because that's the best option with what I have.

I usually play at 1000 actually, but anywhere up to 2000 is fairly common depending on how long we've got and how many players are there. I went for 1500 here just because it's a good middle ground and I can add/remove stuff from there.

After you playtest that list you may find the jokaeros do not end up doing much use for their expense and the psykers are too erratic. If that is what happens, I would suggest you got rid of the jokaeros and trimmed down the 10-man acolyte unit so you'd be able to fit in another psyker squad just like the others. Then you'll terrify your opponent

I must admit I'm interested to see how the Jokearo turn out, I get the impression they're going to be fun if a little random, and at worst gives the squad some fire-power outside 24".

I may try and fit in another psyker squad in place of something, my lists are always very fluid and rarely the same from game to game, so there will be a lot of variation with this eventually. If I bring IG allies instead of SM, I may being some IG psykers as well. Psykers everywhere!

 Paradigm wrote:
I must admit I'm interested to see how the Jokearo turn out, I get the impression they're going to be fun if a little random, and at worst gives the squad some fire-power outside 24".

I may try and fit in another psyker squad in place of something, my lists are always very fluid and rarely the same from game to game, so there will be a lot of variation with this eventually. If I bring IG allies instead of SM, I may being some IG psykers as well. Psykers everywhere!

Best thing about Jokaero...overwatch...oh...and then jumping in front of power weapons with their 5+ invuln

I've found coatez and 5 jaokero along with some meatshields in a chimera do rather well. Especially if you roll a 4 on the divination power chart. Maybe if your ballsy going for a larger number of jokero with some crusaders for shields. I use fantasy empire swordsmen for crusaders. My crusaders are rich fops. I converted axes onto many of them to give them the strength bonus since they would likely be swinging last in combat anyway. Possibly mix in a couple servitors with heavy bolters and a plasma cannon.

It's the echo chamber effect. Someone with a high post-count said "Space marines are weak now. *SAGE NOD* 3+ is the new 5+" and everyone just started repeating it.

As a player of both Space Marines and Tau, I can tell you that the difference between the durability of a T3 4+ unit vs. a T4 3+ unit isn't even comparable. And that's not even taking into account ATSKNF.

Anyway, I'm a huge fan of Coteaz armies with weird/interesting warbands. I've been toying around with going 5-points for bolters, using DKOK models and blinging out their lasguns to look like Inquisition-issue laz0r guns. Haven't pulled the trigger on it yet, though.

But Inquisitorial goons in gas masks would be sexy.

CDRAlbrecht wrote:
But Inquisitorial goons in gas masks would be sexy.

True DAT.

CDRAlbrecht wrote:
It's the echo chamber effect. Someone with a high post-count said "Space marines are weak now. *SAGE NOD* 3+ is the new 5+" and everyone just started repeating it.

As a player of both Space Marines and Tau, I can tell you that the difference between the durability of a T3 4+ unit vs. a T4 3+ unit isn't even comparable. And that's not even taking into account ATSKNF.

Slightly off-topic: to be honest, I can see where the idea comes from when considering the competitive meta as a whole. Heldrakes don't care whether you have a 3+ or 4+, and neither do eldar rending-everything. The difference is you pay more for a 3+ than a 4+, but die just the same. So in terms of the durability of marines in the general meta, there is a lot more AP3 around which renders the points you pay for the save wasted.

However, it's not something I've seen on a local level, so while I can see that there are some merits to the argument, it's not something that I'm particularly worried about. And it certainly does suffer from an echo effect, but so do most perceptions about the game like 'assault is dead' and 'Vendettas are the only IG FA choice'.

And the idea for DKOK Inq'ed up is ultra-cool!

trust me, post count does not = right. I remember being a chapter master on portent while here, I'm a fresh faced person. lol
I think it is more "sucking up", than just agreeing. lol
Wargames Factory has a decent looking greatcoat/gas mask model for a good price. I use some for veterans and can tell you they work well converted with plasma, melta guns and flamers and the heavy weapons guys don't look bad sitting next to heavy weapons either. There is a guy at our local shop that uses them converted with bolters and they do indeed look nice.
I use fantasy empire swordsmen as crusaders (some with axes) to make my crusaders lok like rich fops. The other guy uses brettonian halberdiers which have more of a steampunky look. We both use dark elder witches with grey knight falchions as death cult assassins and to be honest, I think they look the part.

I thought long and hard about what to use as jokero (no way was I paying that much money for as many as I wanted to try out). my first thought was to get a "barrel of monkeys" and glue them to bases (decided against it for fear of them looking TOO silly compared to my other serious models). My next was to buy a bunch of dollar store zoo animal bags and glue the gorillas from them onto bases (but they looked too buff for my liking). I ended up considering my jokero as smaller than average (spider monkey rather than orangutan sized. I then decided that if they were tech savvy enough to build the fancy rings, they could build their own lil transports. So I ended up using the giant servo skulls that come with the counter dice. Each one is painted up and based and houses a jokero. Not a bad counts as since they look like nothing else in my army (when I do use a servo skull, its actually a fantasy head mounted and based on a flying stand so even then, there is no confusing the two. Some local guys got pissy but I think they were just mad cause they had blown over $100 on thiers and didn't want to see me get them cheap. the local store owner loves them and they are perfectly legit (more so than the Wargames Factory stormtroopers used as henchmen because these are actual "GW" models.

EVIL INC wrote:
trust me, post count does not = right. I remember being a chapter master on portent while here, I'm a fresh faced person. lol
I think it is more "sucking up", than just agreeing. lol
Wargames Factory has a decent looking greatcoat/gas mask model for a good price. I use some for veterans and can tell you they work well converted with plasma, melta guns and flamers and the heavy weapons guys don't look bad sitting next to heavy weapons either. There is a guy at our local shop that uses them converted with bolters and they do indeed look nice.
I use fantasy empire swordsmen as crusaders (some with axes) to make my crusaders lok like rich fops. The other guy uses brettonian halberdiers which have more of a steampunky look. We both use dark elder witches with grey knight falchions as death cult assassins and to be honest, I think they look the part.

I thought long and hard about what to use as jokero (no way was I paying that much money for as many as I wanted to try out). my first thought was to get a "barrel of monkeys" and glue them to bases (decided against it for fear of them looking TOO silly compared to my other serious models). My next was to buy a bunch of dollar store zoo animal bags and glue the gorillas from them onto bases (but they looked too buff for my liking). I ended up considering my jokero as smaller than average (spider monkey rather than orangutan sized. I then decided that if they were tech savvy enough to build the fancy rings, they could build their own lil transports. So I ended up using the giant servo skulls that come with the counter dice. Each one is painted up and based and houses a jokero. Not a bad counts as since they look like nothing else in my army (when I do use a servo skull, its actually a fantasy head mounted and based on a flying stand so even then, there is no confusing the two. Some local guys got pissy but I think they were just mad cause they had blown over $100 on thiers and didn't want to see me get them cheap. the local store owner loves them and they are perfectly legit (more so than the Wargames Factory stormtroopers used as henchmen because these are actual "GW" models.

I came up with a simple solution actually!

I was really excite when I thought of it.

Techpriest.

The dude has a slew of digital weapons and not much know-how on how to use them...terrible save with a forceshield...I took them to when made a whole deathwatch army from purifiers and added henchmen stormtroopers with a techpriest/monkey.

I like that if your only using one or two and it fits in well with your fluff. If your using large numbers of them though, they are just as expensive as the finecast monkey. I have 12 of them my way for less than the price of 3 "official" models and I got the dice and tins to boot.

I'm certainly going to be counts-as-ing the monkeys with something ad-mechy. Ductvader, did you use the standard techpriest model or convert something?

I am not sure...this is him.

That's converted, and has given me a couple of ideas actually. Thanks.

 Paradigm wrote:
That's converted, and has given me a couple of ideas actually. Thanks.

Yes, I just don't remember what the original model is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...I have a lot of models just sitting around.

I think that somewhere under there is the IG techpriest model but with arm swaps and some extra bits added.

 ductvader wrote:

CDRAlbrecht wrote:
But Inquisitorial goons in gas masks would be sexy.

True DAT.

While I always try to kitbash and use GW bits, sometimes GW doesn't have what I like. So for some of my henchmen with gasmasks I went with heads from Pig Iron Productions. Specifically the Kolony Militia ones if I recall correctly. Check them out if you are really into masks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EVIL INC wrote:
I thought long and hard about what to use as jokero ... So I ended up using the giant servo skulls that come with the counter dice. Each one is painted up and based and houses a jokero. Not a bad counts as since they look like nothing else in my army (when I do use a servo skull, its actually a fantasy head mounted and based on a flying stand so even then, there is no confusing the two. Some local guys got pissy but I think they were just mad cause they had blown over $100 on thiers and didn't want to see me get them cheap. the local store owner loves them and they are perfectly legit (more so than the Wargames Factory stormtroopers used as henchmen because these are actual "GW" models.

That idea is awesome. I went with skaven for the bodies, either skaven or dward arms, random GW bits for their ridiculously hobbled together guns, and some, and slightly modified third party werewolf heads which ended up looking surprisingly like gorilla heads at the end.

Ah, using skaven. There's an idea. I have a ton lying around from IOB, and while I've used some for a mutant acolyte watband, using them for the apes is a great idea.