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For example, can Markerlight Drones or a Tau Commander attached to Broadsides (not jet pack infantry) activate thier jet packs in the assault phase to scoot around while the broadsides remain stationary?

What about a riptide attached to an ethereal (not jet pack infantry)?

What about a riptide attached to an autarch mounted on an eldar jet bike? If so would you roll once for the unit or would you roll once for the riptide and once for the jet bike?

I would say yes because there is a bit in the rule book that says movement is done on a model by model basis. They still need to keep cohesion and you would have to roll each one for the 2 seperate rules. However i am a bit rusty on that sentence and don't know the page off the top of my head.

Movement rules say mixed models can move up to their maximum distance as long as they end there movement within unit coherency.

What special jet pack rule are you applying if it is the thrust move this cannot be applied if the unit is charging or in combat. Otherwise this is fine as long as the unit ends its move in coherency with the unit.

The hammer of wrath move can be applied per model so a jetbike in a unit of non jetbikes would still get the rule.

I cannot site page numbers as its an eBook copy on a phone so page numbers are all squiffy.

The rules also state Jet Pack units get to make thrust moves, and is a mixed unit still a jet pack unit?

It does say in the unit coherency section of the movement rules

When you are moving a unit, its individual models can each move up to their maximum movement distance

I would say your Jet packs can thrust but if your mixed unit has multiple jet packs they must all do it.

no they cannot.

the unit is no longer a jetpack unit once you have mixed them up with non jet pack models, as such they forfit their 'bonus' movement.

the jetpack move is not movement, as such the maximum movement does not apply as this is not movement per-ce'.

its a special rule that allows additonal movement to be taken by a unit that is euiped with jet packs.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
the unit is no longer a jetpack unit once you have mixed them up with non jet pack models

Will you please give a page that defines "jetpack unit"? I can't seem to find one.

Yeah, I can't find a rule where it states that Calvary "units" are those units soley comprised of "Calvary" or Jump Infantry "units" are those units soley comprised of Jump Infantry.

We have several cases where GW has used language to exclude units from using special abilities if a single model in the unit lacks the rule in question: ie Skyleap and Battle Focus. That exclusionary language is missing from the Jet Infantry section.

 Happyjew wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
the unit is no longer a jetpack unit once you have mixed them up with non jet pack models

Will you please give a page that defines "jetpack unit"? I can't seem to find one.

A jetpack unit is a unit consisting of jetpack subtype models. Once you include a non jetpack model you have a unit that is not a jetpack unit, it is a mixed unit consisting of primarily jetpacks. The most logical definition for a jetpack unit is a unit consisting solely of models with the jetpack subtype.

Pg 44 gives us a list of unit types. Jetpack is listed subtype.

The Thrust Move language does not say jetpack models in a unit, it states jetpack unit. The Assault move and Turboboost for Jetbikes is worded differently, and is model specific where as Run moves and Jet Pack moves are listed as Unit actions.

Pg10 does does us how to move models with differing movement speeds, but this is in reference to standard movement and has no bearing on unit types and the ability to make a thrust move. It does not give permission for infantry to be considered jet pack without the associated unit subtype.


I think there is a very strong RAI argument for letting them, but RAW we cannot let mixed unit types perform or declare actions they have no permission to do so.

zagman beat me to it, just looked it all up, wrote out my response and when I come to find the thread I've been beaten to the punch.

ahh well, I agree with Zagman on this one.

I disagree with Zagman, but I don't blame him for the misconceptions caused by the unit type section of the rule book.

I reviewed this section in detail, it was one of my first major posts here, and I was able to conclude that they where not in fact referencing entire units consisting of a single 'unit type.' Putting aside the complete lack of the rules telling us how to determine what a unit's unit type is, certain rules will become wonky if you try and apply the 'x unit type means an entire unit' mentality. For while people focus a great deal on the possibility of a thrust move, they overlook the fact that 'x unit type' is used in many other places throughout this section. Should they be correct that the Thrust rules require an entire unit in order to evoke them, then any other rule that also uses this terminology would require the entire unit to have a single unit-type as well.

Including Special Rules granted by unit type.

The logical conclusion of this argument is that a unit loses access to these special rules whenever a model without that unit type joins them. This is not a matter of simply denying access to a Special Rule when it is not shared, as a few Special Rules inform us that all models in the unit must contain the rule before it can be evoked. It involves completely removing the Special Rule in question with no more explanation then 'a infantry commander joined them' and then returning it soon as they leave. To my knowledge, no other mechanism exists that involves stripping and restoring Special Rules a model has access to. I, personally, feel that such an unprecedented act would have a little more detailed instead of being something we have to derive based on a single use of a single word.

Not only am I hard pressed to find any other situation where a Special Rule can be stripped in such a fashion, but every Special Rule in question is already 'model only.' It would make sense to remove a 'unit wide' special rule if you do not want an independent character joined to benefit, but we don't even have that reasoning to go off here. Not only are the special rules in question are already limited to a single model, any joined model will not benefit simply by osmosis, but not all of them are positive benefits. The conclusion that 'X unit means an entire unit of X' would make it possible for us to get around a negative simply by adding a model with a different unit type.

So why use the word unit in this subsection?

The sub-section details a Jump or Jet-Pack unit type informs us that it is only a 'partial unit type,' a model profile will always have another unit type after it and they where faced with a problem. They had to define rules that could apply to a wide range of models with the only common element happening to be the sharing of half a unit type. In order to refer to every model that could fall under these rules, and not have to write out every combination possible, they needed a single terminology to represent them all. It is very possible that the use of "jump unit' or "jet-pack unit' is the terminology they chose to represent 'all models which have access to this unit type' and should not be read in the same way as the singular word of 'units.'

It is really such an improbability that the use of the words 'Jump unit' means 'all models that contain the partial Unit Type of Jump?'

 Zagman wrote:


A jetpack unit is a unit consisting of jetpack subtype models. Once you include a non jetpack model you have a unit that is not a jetpack unit, it is a mixed unit consisting of primarily jetpacks. The most logical definition for a jetpack unit is a unit consisting solely of models with the jetpack subtype.

OK, so based on this interpretation, that to be a subtype unit, all models must contain the same type of subtype:

Then you would agree that Monster Hunter will not work against mixed units that contain MC and non-MC models (ie a prime attached to a carnifex squad, a commander attached to a riptide, Ovesa Star). Monster Hunter states that you reroll failed wounds against MC and FMC. When rolling to wound, you roll to wound based on the "Unit's" majority toughness. You don't roll to wound based on individual models but against the unit. Since a mixed unit is not a MC unit, then tank hunter wound not apply.

 wyomingfox wrote:

 Zagman wrote:


A jetpack unit is a unit consisting of jetpack subtype models. Once you include a non jetpack model you have a unit that is not a jetpack unit, it is a mixed unit consisting of primarily jetpacks. The most logical definition for a jetpack unit is a unit consisting solely of models with the jetpack subtype.

OK, so based on this interpretation, that to be a subtype unit, all models must contain the same type of subtype:

Then you would agree that Monster Hunter will not work against mixed units that contain MC and non-MC models (ie a prime attached to a carnifex squad, a commander attached to a riptide, Ovesa Star). Monster Hunter states that you reroll failed wounds against MC and FMC. When rolling to wound, you roll to wound based on the "Unit's" majority toughness. You don't roll to wound based on individual models but against the unit. Since a mixed unit is not a MC unit, then tank hunter wound not apply.

The Monster Hunter special rule makes no mention of unit types as a requirement.
A great wording I saw elsewhere on the interwebs:
Are you rolling to wound a Monstrous Creature? Yes.
Are you rolling to wound other types as well? Irrelevant.

RAI I think is actually no, this isn't supposed to work, and is how I would have written it for game mechanics sake. Though an argument could be made that it would 'make sense' that they could jet move flavor wise.

RAW in the strictest since, sure I guess if you follow the three year old hamfisted crayon scrawlings of GWs BRB, though I would never play it that way.

Bojazz wrote:
The Monster Hunter special rule makes no mention of unit types as a requirement.
A great wording I saw elsewhere on the interwebs:
Are you rolling to wound a Monstrous Creature? Yes.
Are you rolling to wound other types as well? Irrelevant.

Yes, it does. Monstrous Creature and Flying Monstrous Creature are unit types.
So if it's a mixed unit you might not be rolling to wound a Monstrous Creature - and that fact is very relevant.

not really since each hit resolution agasint a unit is resolved sequentially, in this isntace you are in fact boiling down the to-wound roll to a one for one basis, so the analogy of are you rolling agasint an MC does come into play.

the post was with regards to the movement phase which has no other external inputs, I am still staying with 'no' as my answer as I don't beleive the arguement put forward at this point is correct but I will review at lunch time when I get back to my library.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ok here we go:

unit types, starts on p44 BRB

in short stipulates what constitutes a unit and what each type does in terms of special rules ect.

this section deals with the unit as a whole when purchased from each relevant codex, so off the bat we have disproved that units types are on a model by model basis, this simply isn't true except where a unit consist of only a single model, but single models are themselves still a unit.

the next part is where it starts getting tricky.

there is no 'section' for mixed units or their types, as the only way this can really happen (to my direct knowledge anyway) the only way to mix up a unit is with a character...more precisely an independent character: p39 BRB

under the heading special rules, the short order of it is that unless a rule specifies it effects models within a unit that the characters special rules and the units special rules have no bearing on one another. an example of one that does work is stubborn.

so what we know:

unit types confer special rules to units composed of those given types.

independent characters do not give or gain special rules when they join a unit unless the special rule expressly permits it.

we have also been given an example of the language used to permit the use of special rules in mixed unit type units.

so to crux of the matter: p47 BRB Jet Pack Infantry.

the Thrust move specifies that a 'jet pack unit' can make a thrust move.

this tells me that the answer is that so long as the unit is a mixed unit, they cannot make a thrust move, as the special rule is not specifying that a model with a jet pack may make the move, but specifies the unit as a whole.


conclusion:

no, a mixed unit type unit containing models with jet packs may not make a thrust move.

this does not prevent the jet pack model from moving normally and it will still retain the other special rules associated with Jet packs.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
not really since each hit resolution agasint a unit is resolved sequentially, in this isntace you are in fact boiling down the to-wound roll to a one for one basis, so the analogy of are you rolling agasint an MC does come into play.

the post was with regards to the movement phase which has no other external inputs, I am still staying with 'no' as my answer as I don't beleive the arguement put forward at this point is correct but I will review at lunch time when I get back to my library.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ok here we go:

unit types, starts on p44 BRB

in short stipulates what constitutes a unit and what each type does in terms of special rules ect.

this section deals with the unit as a whole when purchased from each relevant codex, so off the bat we have disproved that units types are on a model by model basis, this simply isn't true except where a unit consist of only a single model, but single models are themselves still a unit.

the next part is where it starts getting tricky.

there is no 'section' for mixed units or their types, as the only way this can really happen (to my direct knowledge anyway) the only way to mix up a unit is with a character...more precisely an independent character: p39 BRB

under the heading special rules, the short order of it is that unless a rule specifies it effects models within a unit that the characters special rules and the units special rules have no bearing on one another. an example of one that does work is stubborn.

so what we know:

unit types confer special rules to units composed of those given types.

independent characters do not give or gain special rules when they join a unit unless the special rule expressly permits it.

we have also been given an example of the language used to permit the use of special rules in mixed unit type units.

so to crux of the matter: p47 BRB Jet Pack Infantry.

the Thrust move specifies that a 'jet pack unit' can make a thrust move.

this tells me that the answer is that so long as the unit is a mixed unit, they cannot make a thrust move, as the special rule is not specifying that a model with a jet pack may make the move, but specifies the unit as a whole.


conclusion:

no, a mixed unit type unit containing models with jet packs may not make a thrust move.

this does not prevent the jet pack model from moving normally and it will still retain the other special rules associated with Jet packs.

That begs the question, what is a jet pack unit? Must it be made of only jet pack models? If you have a jet pack MC, jump inf, and a beast in the same unit, what type of unit is that?

Ignoring my random question, I play it that they can activate their jump move. I never knew that there saws any controversy over this. I"R"L I say they can because of this quote in the Tau codex on sniper drones.
"Thanks to their anti-gravitic jet, the Sniper Drones can move, momentarily steady themselves, shoot at their quarry, and then move back behind cover, making them very hard to target with ranged weaponry."

actually, I would say that if you want to be that pedantic by saying it isnt a jetpack unit, I would completely disagree and say that by having a jetpack model it is infact a jetpack unit, however, only the models with jetpacks may actually move the distance allowed by the thrust move. Thus the unit makes the roll, but those without jetpacks cannot make use of their potential thrust distance.

Ignoring this, i would still say RAI they can make thrust moves, again it is the sloppy use of the word unit where model was the intended phrase. RAW I would also refer to the fact that a model with a jetpack becomes unit type: (Type) (Jetpack) which makes it a unit type jetpack, aka a jetpack unit. That other models it has joined or are joined to it are not unit type jetpack is irrelevant, for instance, an infantry model joined to a unit of beasts does not become unit type beasts, and the beasts do not become unit type infantry. Same with subcategories. A model with unit type jetpack infantry does not become infantry when joining an infantry unit and an infantry model does not become unit type infantry jetpack when joining a unit equipped with jetpacks

I would say "yes you can" because the jump unit rules on the same page have a specific statement forcing the entire unit to use the same type of movement, while the jet pack unit rules do not have any such statement.

Keep in mind there is nothing in the jump pack unit rules that voids or overrides the unit coherency rules, and nothing that allows IC's to separate from their joined unit in the assault phase. So using thrust is going to be severely inhibited for a jet pack unit that contains non-jet pack ICs.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
not really since each hit resolution agasint a unit is resolved sequentially, in this isntace you are in fact boiling down the to-wound roll to a one for one basis, so the analogy of are you rolling agasint an MC does come into play.

the post was with regards to the movement phase which has no other external inputs, I am still staying with 'no' as my answer as I don't beleive the arguement put forward at this point is correct but I will review at lunch time when I get back to my library.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ok here we go:

unit types, starts on p44 BRB

in short stipulates what constitutes a unit and what each type does in terms of special rules ect.

this section deals with the unit as a whole when purchased from each relevant codex, so off the bat we have disproved that units types are on a model by model basis, this simply isn't true except where a unit consist of only a single model, but single models are themselves still a unit.

the next part is where it starts getting tricky.

there is no 'section' for mixed units or their types, as the only way this can really happen (to my direct knowledge anyway) the only way to mix up a unit is with a character...more precisely an independent character: p39 BRB

under the heading special rules, the short order of it is that unless a rule specifies it effects models within a unit that the characters special rules and the units special rules have no bearing on one another. an example of one that does work is stubborn.

so what we know:

unit types confer special rules to units composed of those given types.

independent characters do not give or gain special rules when they join a unit unless the special rule expressly permits it.

we have also been given an example of the language used to permit the use of special rules in mixed unit type units.

so to crux of the matter: p47 BRB Jet Pack Infantry.

the Thrust move specifies that a 'jet pack unit' can make a thrust move.

this tells me that the answer is that so long as the unit is a mixed unit, they cannot make a thrust move, as the special rule is not specifying that a model with a jet pack may make the move, but specifies the unit as a whole.


conclusion:

no, a mixed unit type unit containing models with jet packs may not make a thrust move.

this does not prevent the jet pack model from moving normally and it will still retain the other special rules associated with Jet packs.

That begs the question, what is a jet pack unit? Must it be made of only jet pack models? If you have a jet pack MC, jump inf, and a beast in the same unit, what type of unit is that?

Ignoring my random question, I play it that they can activate their jump move. I never knew that there saws any controversy over this. I"R"L I say they can because of this quote in the Tau codex on sniper drones.
"Thanks to their anti-gravitic jet, the Sniper Drones can move, momentarily steady themselves, shoot at their quarry, and then move back behind cover, making them very hard to target with ranged weaponry."

Good question, what is the STD unit type?