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Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




Hi all,
I'm a relatively new Chaos Space Marine player. I've been playing a unit of 2 or 3 Obliterators in my last games (approx. 6-7 games), trying to use them both with DS and deploying from the beginning.

However I must say I'm truly disappointed with their performances up till now, they end up dying in the first 2 turns before they are able to pay their points back. In a couple of situations they died on the second turn of play without even causing a single wound (with a mix of bad rolls and good saves).

I have always played them with the Mark of Nurgle, of course.
Next time i'll try and play 2 units of 3 Oblits each and see if something will change.

Do you have any experience with them? Any insight?
They look so good on paper, but up till now they have been my worst performers overall in several matches. Am I overestimating them?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 09:56:53


 
   
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Well, if the opponent is able to shoot your Oblits, then it appears that he will have no larger threats in your army. If you put pressure on the enemy, he will be hard pressed to choose between different target.
How did your army look like?

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Regular Dakkanaut




It varied between the matches, I'm still trying to find an optimum balance (also depends on the points limit).

However an approximated list on those matches could be:

Abaddon
Lord on Bike with MoS and Black Mace

10 Noise Marines with 2x Blastmasters
10 Noise Marines with 9 Sonic Blasters
8 CSM with MoS and IoE

Bikes with MoS and IoE to escort the Lord
1 Heldrake

LR
2x Oblits


Honestly I don't think that I was lacking imminent threats.. (people tends to be distracted by Abaddon and the Heldrake...)
   
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land of 10k taxes

Mark Of Nurgle for T5 will help.

was censored by the ministry of truth 
   
Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




 FeindusMaximus wrote:
Mark Of Nurgle for T5 will help.


How I said in the first post I always field them with Mark of Nurgle
   
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Hamburg

Abaddon
Lord on Bike with MoS and Black Mace

10 Noise Marines with 2x Blastmasters
10 Noise Marines with 9 Sonic Blasters
8 CSM with MoS and IoE

Bikes with MoS and IoE to escort the Lord
1 Heldrake

LR
2x Oblits

In this list, the biggest threats are the approaching LR (transporting the CSM + Abaddon), the Bikes, and the Oblits.
If you hold the LR back or let the Bikes approach the enemy along a flank), the Oblits might be the biggest threat to eliminate first.

Former moderator 40kOnline

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Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

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Regular Dakkanaut




 wuestenfux wrote:
Abaddon
Lord on Bike with MoS and Black Mace

10 Noise Marines with 2x Blastmasters
10 Noise Marines with 9 Sonic Blasters
8 CSM with MoS and IoE

Bikes with MoS and IoE to escort the Lord
1 Heldrake

LR
2x Oblits

In this list, the biggest threats are the approaching LR (transporting the CSM + Abaddon), the Bikes, and the Oblits.
If you hold the LR back or let the Bikes approach the enemy along a flank), the Oblits might be the biggest threat to eliminate first.


So... Do you suggest that the main problem is about the list and that the Obliterators are worth their points?
If so I'll experiment some more lists...
   
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Just out of curiosity, is this a 2k list??

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Regular Dakkanaut




GoliothOnline wrote:
Just out of curiosity, is this a 2k list??


It was not a true list but more something like a "guideline", since I was talking about 6-7 different games at different point costs with slight adjustments between each match.

However I usually play with a point cost between 1750 and 2000 (with 1850 being the most common).


By the way tomorrow I will play with this list:

Abaddon
Lord on Bike with MoN, PF, LC, SoC

26 Cultists
7 PM with 2 Plasma Guns
7 PM with 2 Plasma Guns

6 Bikers with MoN and 2 Meltaguns (still don't own any Spawn, will buy soon if this list works)
Heldrake

3 Oblits with MoN
3 Oblits with MoN

Total: 1752 Points.

On paper, it seems pretty solid and killy to me. Hope that the table will prove me right

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/13 13:42:23


 
   
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Diablix wrote:
Hi all,
I'm a relatively new Chaos Space Marine player. I've been playing a unit of 2 or 3 Obliterators in my last games (approx. 6-7 games), trying to use them both with DS and deploying from the beginning.

However I must say I'm truly disappointed with their performances up till now, they end up dying in the first 2 turns before they are able to pay their points back. In a couple of situations they died on the second turn of play without even causing a single wound (with a mix of bad rolls and good saves).

I have always played them with the Mark of Nurgle, of course.
Next time i'll try and play 2 units of 3 Oblits each and see if something will change.

Do you have any experience with them? Any insight?
They look so good on paper, but up till now they have been my worst performers overall in several matches. Am I overestimating them?


Again that's silly thinking, "pay their points back" doesn't necessarily mean that they have to shoot enough, if they've taken enough damage so that everything else lives then they did their job too.

What do you expect everything to survive by the end of turn 6?

They are amazing, the reason why they are dying so fast is that people think they're a threat and they probably soak up enough fire to make up for the rest of your army not dying.

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So how to run oblits in a list

you always run them with MoN
you often run them with VotLW, especilly if you are taking multiple in a unit. This is for the Ld boost. No one wants their 2 oblits running when the third dies. Ld8 isnt that great.

so in each HS slot you have that doesnt have havoc or preds in it you can go for
1 Oblit MoN
2 Oblits MoN
2 Oblits MoN VotLW
3 Oblits MoN VotLW (VotLW a must on 3)

how you use them depends entirely on what you face and the mission. These guys can Deep Strike, march up the field and fire, and have every weapon you could ever want. There is no standard place for them to be, nor a target they are destined to be going after. It really depends, more so than other units, on what you are facing and what mission you are playing.


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Perhaps you are overthinking what to do with Obliterators.

90% of the time, I deepstrike them near the biggest thing the enemy has and blow it up. Usually, that would be more than the cost of the unit (but I do wish to point out this metric is a wildly inaccurate measure of performance within the game).

The other 10% of the time, I deploy them on the board as normal and keep them in my deployment zone. They are just used for taking out anything else that might want to deep strike behind my troops.

That's about how I have used them over the past few years. Not much more to it.

   
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 Makutsu wrote:
Diablix wrote:

However I must say I'm truly disappointed with their performances up till now, they end up dying in the first 2 turns before they are able to pay their points back. In a couple of situations they died on the second turn of play without even causing a single wound (with a mix of bad rolls and good saves).


Again that's silly thinking, "pay their points back" doesn't necessarily mean that they have to shoot enough, if they've taken enough damage so that everything else lives then they did their job too.

What do you expect everything to survive by the end of turn 6?

They are amazing, the reason why they are dying so fast is that people think they're a threat and they probably soak up enough fire to make up for the rest of your army not dying.


Making it's points back is a truly silly idea.

If the entire enemy army fires on your oblits turn one, kills them all, before they can even fire a shot, they have not been useless. They soaked all of the enemies firepower for a turn, which means other things did not get shot.
If they last till turn 6, and kill a bunch of tanks over the course of turn 4-6, even if those tanks were worth 800 points they might not have been very useful, as tanks have very little value late game. (Which would you rather have on turn 6? A squadron of Lemon Russes or a blob of cultists? Cultists every single day, as they can score)

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Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




 Makutsu wrote:

Again that's silly thinking, "pay their points back" doesn't necessarily mean that they have to shoot enough, if they've taken enough damage so that everything else lives then they did their job too.

What do you expect everything to survive by the end of turn 6?


Never said that.
But it really doesn't take so much fire to kill a unit of oblits, if you have powerfist or plasma guns. Ok, they are powerful weapons, but at least twice it happened to me that I deepstriked 2 Oblits, scattered out of melta-range to get the twin-linked version, used the multimelta: 2 misses. Annihilated on the following turn.
I could have found better ways to spend 152 pts.

Please note that I did not say that they suck, I just said I've been unable to use them effectively and I'm looking for advices on how to use them! As an example I've been told from another Chaos player that he never had luck with them when playing less than 6 of them, so I'll try that way.

Maybe some of you had some other brilliant ideas.. did not mean to offend anyone...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Perhaps you are overthinking what to do with Obliterators.

90% of the time, I deepstrike them near the biggest thing the enemy has and blow it up. Usually, that would be more than the cost of the unit (but I do wish to point out this metric is a wildly inaccurate measure of performance within the game).

The other 10% of the time, I deploy them on the board as normal and keep them in my deployment zone. They are just used for taking out anything else that might want to deep strike behind my troops.

That's about how I have used them over the past few years. Not much more to it.


Well, on paper I thought they would be better than that.
But the more I play them, the more they seem just a suicidal DS unit to me.
That's why I started this post. If they turn out to be used just as you say then honestly I'd prefer 3 termies with combi-meltas/plasmas and 5 havocs to a unit of 3 oblits.
But I do really hope that 2 units of 3 will work better

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/13 15:24:41


 
   
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Spoiler:
Diablix wrote:
 Makutsu wrote:

Again that's silly thinking, "pay their points back" doesn't necessarily mean that they have to shoot enough, if they've taken enough damage so that everything else lives then they did their job too.

What do you expect everything to survive by the end of turn 6?


Never said that.
But it really doesn't take so much fire to kill a unit of oblits, if you have powerfist or plasma guns. Ok, they are powerful weapons, but at least twice it happened to me that I deepstriked 2 Oblits, scattered out of melta-range to get the twin-linked version, used the multimelta: 2 misses. Annihilated on the following turn.
I could have found better ways to spend 152 pts.

Please note that I did not say that they suck, I just said I've been unable to use them effectively and I'm looking for advices on how to use them! As an example I've been told from another Chaos player that he never had luck with them when playing less than 6 of them, so I'll try that way.

Maybe some of you had some other brilliant ideas.. did not mean to offend anyone...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Perhaps you are overthinking what to do with Obliterators.

90% of the time, I deepstrike them near the biggest thing the enemy has and blow it up. Usually, that would be more than the cost of the unit (but I do wish to point out this metric is a wildly inaccurate measure of performance within the game).

The other 10% of the time, I deploy them on the board as normal and keep them in my deployment zone. They are just used for taking out anything else that might want to deep strike behind my troops.

That's about how I have used them over the past few years. Not much more to it.


Well, on paper I thought they would be better than that.
But the more I play them, the more they seem just a suicidal DS unit to me.
That's why I started this post. If they turn out to be used just as you say then honestly I'd prefer 3 termies with combi-meltas/plasmas and 5 havocs to a unit of 3 oblits.
But I do really hope that 2 units of 3 will work better


I've always ran 3 in every list and they honestly never die or kill enough that I don't really care.
There's no need to deepstrike them, they have lascannons, plasama cannons, assault cannons you name it.
The thing is you move them in bit by bit and killing things that can kill you.

Deep striking has couple of issues:
1. Allowing dangerous enemy short range weapons to fire at you. aka Plasma guns will ruin your day.
2. Deepstriking means turn 2, means you lose a turn of fire power.
3. Deepstrike mishaps, as you said a scatter or mishap could and will lose you the game.

If you start them on the table, fire plasma cannons/lascannons at whatever can hurt you at range, most things probably can't take 2-3 lascannons/plasma cannons to the face.
Then as they or you move forward fire assault cannons, and then plasma and then charge in.

You'd be surprised how crazy Oblits do in CC since they have that power fist.

Also, put them in the center of the board, you have absolute control over the table after that, Oblits can pretty much target anything if they are dead center of the table.

And of course running them as Nurgle is the only way to go.

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Step 1 - Don't deepstrike them.
They can fire every turn of the game, and they're very good at firing, so there's no reason to sacrifice at least one turn of shooting.

Step 2 - Keep them moving.
They can fire on the move, there's no reason to park them in one place since it only limits your options.

Step 3 - If feasible (i.e - opponent/terrain dependant), keep them moving forward.
The closer you are to <things> the more options you have available. Restricting yourself to long range limits your shooting options on a unit that already has somewhat more restricted shooting options (turn by turn, that is).

If you're never in range for multi/melta's/plasma guns/flamers, they effectively do not exist as choices, which limits you to plasma cannon/lascannon/assault cannon. Of those 3 remaining options, only 2 are actually worth using.

Consider combo'ing them with Huron's guaranteed 1+ infiltrator if you have nothing else in the list that can make use of it. If you're taking Huron you don't need to buy VotLW since you can put him in the unit itself (if you roll 2+ infiltrating units, or if you're not infiltrating them) to make them fearless for free.

If you were that way inclined, you could also combo them with an allied daemons character with grimoire for the +2 invuln bonus to take their invuln to 3++. Probably not the best use of the grimoire, but if you were already rolling daemon allies (which you're not, but it's an alternate option regardless) it's not a terrible use of the artifact. Probably best used only on 3man squads. T5 2+/3++, potentially fearless infiltrating Oblits would be a very versatile, very very durable midfield threat.

   
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I just deep strike a unit of one or two to use them as a distraction. If my opponent doesn't kill them then they will kill him.


 
   
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SC

Deepstriking them is the way to go. I've had little success with them on the board from turn 1. Deep strike 1 or 2 next to something that needs to die or blow up and use the weapon appropriate for the job.

MoN isn't the go to mark though, it depends on what you're up against and what you see a lot of. T5 doesn't help against plasma vets, or melta or lascannons (edit: in regard to wounding rolls, it does do Instant death to them though, so T5 helps there). It does do well against lasguns and bolters though, and you've got your 2+ against that. I've been playing with MoT for the reroll saves of 1 lately, I think thats more valuable against guard and bolters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 19:20:14


 
   
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 Wingeds wrote:
Deepstriking them is the way to go. I've had little success with them on the board from turn 1. Deep strike 1 or 2 next to something that needs to die or blow up and use the weapon appropriate for the job.

MoN isn't the go to mark though, it depends on what you're up against and what you see a lot of. T5 doesn't help against plasma vets, or melta or lascannons. It does do well against lasguns and bolters though, and you've got your 2+ against that. I've been playing with MoT for the reroll saves of 1 lately, I think thats more valuable against guard and bolters.


I don't believe obliterators get the daemon of tzeentch rule- they get the mark of tzeentch. So +1 invulnerable save, not reroll of 1's.

Also if you give an obliterator MoT and put them on a landing pad, that's another way to get a 3+ invulnerable save

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 Wingeds wrote:
Deepstriking them is the way to go. I've had little success with them on the board from turn 1. Deep strike 1 or 2 next to something that needs to die or blow up and use the weapon appropriate for the job.

MoN isn't the go to mark though, it depends on what you're up against and what you see a lot of. T5 doesn't help against plasma vets, or melta or lascannons. It does do well against lasguns and bolters though, and you've got your 2+ against that. I've been playing with MoT for the reroll saves of 1 lately, I think thats more valuable against guard and bolters.


Bad idea, losing a squad because of deepstriking and taking out a unit compared to having multiple turns of shooting. hmmm, I wonder which one is better?
On top of that you're losing a turn of shooting, and one less target for your opponents to choose to shoot at.

MoT doesn't reroll 1s of saves, it adds +1 to Invuls.
Also, the MAIN reason for taking MoN is because it prevents instant death.
Remember those Lascannons and Metlas that you say doesn't help with T5? Well instead of taking your entire model they only take 1 wound off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 18:38:46


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SC

Yea, I got my stuff mixed up. I'm all for preventing instant death. I did mention it depends on what you're up against. Dropping them next to a dev squad with lascannons or meltas with t4 is just asking to lose them in the first place. Their placement is important.

The deepstrike mishap table isn't as punishing as it used to be. Deepstriking a single model is pretty easy now. I use my oblits to tank hunt or go after back field units with flamers. 1/3 chance of no scatter isn't bad.

The problem with walking oblits is you can't fire the same weapon two turns in a row. So say you deploy your oblits as far up as possible and your opponent deploys conservatively towards his board edge. You get your 1 lascannon shot first turn, then you can't shoot it next turn or you just poke at another unit with an unoptimized gun. So your scenario leaves just as much room for losing a turn of shooting, or having them shot off the board first turn. If you deepstrike in the middle of your opponents army you have every gun in their arsenal within their effective range much faster.

Deepstrike them in single units or 2s. Use them as can openers or in conjunction with other deepstrikers. I promise you'll love them and your regular opponents will learn to hate them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/13 19:22:13


 
   
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 Wingeds wrote:
Yea, I got my stuff mixed up. I'm all for preventing instant death. I did mention it depends on what you're up against. Dropping them next to a dev squad with lascannons or meltas with t4 is just asking to lose them in the first place. Their placement is important.

The deepstrike mishap table isn't as punishing as it used to be. Deepstriking a single model is pretty easy now. I use my oblits to tank hunt or go after back field units with flamers. 1/3 chance of no scatter isn't bad.

The problem with walking oblits is you can't fire the same weapon two turns in a row. So say you deploy your oblits as far up as possible and your opponent deploys conservatively towards his board edge. You get your 1 lascannon shot first turn, then you can't shoot it next turn or you just poke at another unit with an unoptimized gun. So your scenario leaves just as much room for losing a turn of shooting, or having them shot off the board first turn. If you deepstrike in the middle of your opponents army you have every gun in their arsenal within their effective range much faster.

Deepstrike them in single units or 2s. Use them as can openers or in conjunction with other deepstrikers. I promise you'll love them and your regular opponents will learn to hate them.


If you're only using 1 model, then fine deepstriking is somewhat viable, but I don't like single model units as they are free VP for your opponent..
The thing is Lascannons will ruin your day for T4 regardless of deepstriking or not.

Honestly deploy them on your deployment edge and you basically will never run out of targets.

If they do get blown off the table that's a good thing since it's not easy to do that, and that means a lot of high S low AP stuff is probably gone into them instead of the rest of your army.

Deploying on the table = +1 turn of shooing & protection for other units in your army.




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SC

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 
   
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/13 20:14:48


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Both ways work and you should use the way that suits the situation. It also entirely depends on how aggressive the rest of your list is.

DS oblits when the rest of your list is in the opponent's deployment zone turn 2 is not a suicide unit. Turn that around and DS oblits turn 2 with the rest of your list being fliers and still in the mid board and they will definitely be suicide units (which tend to be hit or miss and generally not worthwhile).

On the board oblits can take advantage of LoS blocking terrain and fortification/cover. They can also out range most of the stuff that threatens them. This also gives you the maximum number of turns to shoot. This is best suited to opponent's that have a lot of anti TEQ in the <24" range. aka mechvets

DS oblits really need to either open a new battle front or destroy something important and join your battle front. This means DS oblits are only useful when the opponent rushes you and you need to open a front in their backfield or you rush the opponent and the opponent is not turtled to the point you cannot accomplish anything.

BTW if you place your DS target at 6" away from the back corner of a vehicle that gives you the best chance to DS so you can melta it to death. You can also place the first oblit and then place the other two closer to the target with bases touching.

Infiltrating oblits can be amazing. They do need to be properly supported. You should really consider some scouting khorne dogs to take the pressure off of them.

If you are having oblits die all the time the grimoire from the CD dex works on them as they are daemons.
   
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Am I mis-remembering but weren't Oblits Fearless in the previous edition?

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I like Obliterators. How to effectively use them?

Put them on the table. Roll dice.

Basic stuff like use Lascannons on vehicles and not Ork Boyz and, Frag Missles on Ork Boz and not vehicles.

I'm not sarcastically saying they're broken. More articulately, I'm saying that at shooting they are very versatile and threatening to a significant degree to almost any target and have the 2+ resilience to stand against many targets (well except Eldar aka Codex:AP2)

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 PipeAlley wrote:
Am I mis-remembering but weren't Oblits Fearless in the previous edition?


they were, they took a huge hit in 6th when they lost fearless.

they gained the ability to take MoN and Assault Cannons though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 RancidHate wrote:
I like Obliterators. How to effectively use them?

Put them on the table. Roll dice.

Basic stuff like use Lascannons on vehicles and not Ork Boyz and, Frag Missles on Ork Boz and not vehicles.

I'm not sarcastically saying they're broken. More articulately, I'm saying that at shooting they are very versatile and threatening to a significant degree to almost any target and have the 2+ resilience to stand against many targets (well except Eldar aka Codex:AP2)


They are good, but I dont know about broken.

4 Oblits costs 280 points
Has 8 wounds

4 autocannon havocs and 4 lascannon havocs cost 270
Has 10 wounds and can fire at hordes AND armor in the same round.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 22:57:48


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My local meta likes to focus a lot of AP 2 or better firepower when I bring out the Oblits, so I tend to go for the MoT.

Anyway, I almost always have them starting out on the board, usually using their firepower to back up Bikers/Raptors. They've never let me down this way.

I have used deepstrike with them on a handful of occasions but really only as a distraction unit so that something else (like a vindicator -or 2 - or FMC DP) can get in closer without having to worry too much about firepower being directed towards them.

Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.

"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB 
   
Made in au
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




The Golden Throne

Run with 9 at all times or you aren't obliterating properly

Build a man a fire, he will be warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life. 
   
 
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