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So besides my Ultramarine list, I'm also starting an Eldar collection. Love the fluff, the models, the styling. Now I need a
competitive force on the tabletop.

HQ -

Farseer - Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Singing Spear

Karandras, The Shadow Hunter

Total - 360 points

Elites -

10x Striking Scorpions w/ Exarch - Scorpion's Claw, Scorpion Chainsword, Crushing Blow

Total - 220 points

Troops

10x Guardian Defenders w/ Wave Serpent - Scatter Laser, Holofields, Shuriken Cannon

10x Guardian Defenders w/ Wave Serpent - Scatter Laser, Holofields, Shuriken Cannon

3x5 Windrider Jetbike Squadrons

Total - 725 points

Fast Attack

10x Warp Spiders w/ Exarch - Fast Shot, Spinneret Rifle

Total - 225 points

Heavy Support

Wraithlord - Dual Flamers, Brightlance, Scatter Laser

Wraithlord - Dual Flamers, Brightlance, Scatter Laser

Total - 320 points



Comes out to 1850 points on the nose. I'm loathe to use Wraithguard/Wraithblades, as I just don't like the extreme points cost involved, even though
crunch-wise they are fantastic. Likewise, no Wraithknight, as I don't feel like shelling out $115.00 for a single model.

The Warp Spiders and Guardians w/ Wave Serpents, along with the Farseer, are really the only set-in-stone, won't change parts of the list. Everything else,
particularly Karandras and his Scorpion brothers, and the Wraithlords, are really up for change.

Will you really not change those parts? I have 2 issues with those: the runes on the Farseer, they're crap and an utter waste of 30 points. No need for them at all. That alone will pay for two shuricannons on your jetbike squads. Issue 2 - the scorpion exarch. Another pointless upgrade. If you use the warp jump generators and roll a double, a random model is removed as a casualty to the warp. Nothing worse than seeing that expensive exarch get it!

I think scorpions are just terrible in this edition, as is their Phoenix lord. The points are much better spent elsewhere. Especially when the total comes out at more than 25% of your army. They will all be killed, quickly. And long before they do any serious damage. For those points you can get fire dragons in a serpent or something of that ilk which would be much more effective, alternatively fully titled dark reapers - not everyone's choice but with star shot they're pretty good. The reason I suggest them in your list though his because I have no idea where you are going to put your Farseer! If he goes in the serpents, his psychic powers are useless. Can't cast if your inside as there are no fire points. So he needs to be outside to use his powers and actually be effective and worth taking. Which means you have no where to plonk him - which means one dead Farseer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the lords should double up. 2 x lance or 2 x scatter laser. They need to pick a specific roll. They're kind of a bit of everything right now, which means you'll always have wasted shots.

The Runes on the Seer weren't really what I meant, more having a Farseer to begin with! I have no problem dropping the Runes if needed.

I kind of figured on the Scorpions and their Lord, Fire Dragons in a Serpent seem much more logical, granting me additional anti-tank as needed.

I could put Mr. Farseer on a Jetbike and run him with a unit of bikes (No idea how i'd model him though)... Or I could purchase another unit of Guardians
and keep them on foot with a heavy weapon platform to sit on a back objective/provide a place for the Seer to hide?






Also, you really think the WL's should double up? I see a lot of SL/BL combos on Wraithlords, primarily to twin-link the Brightlance.

Yeah, something along those lines. Farseers on jetbikes are incredibly good units. But they are hard to model, and one of 2 reasons I don't take one myself. Fragons in a serpent give you very good AT and a third serpent. 3 serpents at this points cost is very very good. They will be your work horses. They will kill a lot, protect your scoring units, and should survive a long time. They're a better tank than the falcon, and are a dedicated transport!!

A unit of guardians could be the way to go. You are looking for survivability though. The issue with the guardians is certain units will mince them, even in combat. Like the chaos hell drake. So you want him in a tough unit, or a low threat unit. If you can find the points, then 10 dire avengers are a good bet. Pop a shimmershield on the exarch and the whole squad gets a 5+ invulnerable! It is quite a bit more expensive, but will survive longer and have a better range. Having said that, they won't be that great, just better than guardians.

Unfortunately I think they are best in wraithblades with ghost axes. (Though this opinion is debated by a lot of people, it's just my experience) 5 of them mean the units majority toughness is 6' has a 3+ save and a 4++ invulnerable. Every game I have used that combo, my Farseer has lasted til turn 6-7. If you squeeze a spirit seer in, the blades are troops too, and can also sit on objectives, they are an expensive bodyguard though!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And why would you be bothered about twin linking the BL's if you can instead have 2 shots? Twin linking means you'll only ever hit a maximum of once a turn. 2 lances means you could hit twice.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Again it's personal opinion though!)

HQ -

Farseer - Singing Spear

Total - 105 points

Elites -

5x Fire Dragons w/ Exarch - Firepike, Fast Shot - Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Laser, Holofields, Shuriken Cannon

Total - 290 points

Troops

10x Dire Avengers w/ Exarch - Power Weapon & Shimmershield

10x Guardian Defenders w/ Wave Serpent - Scatter Laser, Holofields, Shuriken Cannon

10x Guardian Defenders w/ Wave Serpent - Scatter Laser, Holofields, Shuriken Cannon

2x5 Windrider Jetbike Squadrons

Total - 800 points

Fast Attack

10x Warp Spiders w/ Exarch - Fast Shot, Spinneret Rifle

Total - 225 points

Heavy Support

Wraithlord - Dual Flamers, Dual Brightlances

5x Dark Reapers w/ Exarch - Fast Shot, Reaper Launcher

Total - 330 points

Fortifications

Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun

Total - 100 points.


Combined the weapons on the solo WL, added Dark Reapers to take cover behind/mount the Aegis w/ Quad gun, swapped Scorpions
with Fire Dragons, and added said Dire Avenger unit for the Seer to hide in. Better?

Better (in my opinion) however, if your going to hide reapers behind an ADL then I'd put the farseer in that unit. It means the avengers are redundant and those points could buy a second wraithlord again. 1 is quite susceptible to going down fast - 2 can give your opponent headaches. And the seer can guide those missiles of death!!

Scorpions are not all that great in comparison to the rest of your list. You could drop them and do well.

Take a wraithknight over the wraithlords. They are over twice as good.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Scorpions are not all that great in comparison to the rest of your list. You could drop them and do well.

Take a wraithknight over the wraithlords. They are over twice as good.

They are twice as good......but he has said he doesn't want one!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Will you really not change those parts? I have 2 issues with those: the runes on the Farseer, they're crap and an utter waste of 30 points. No need for them at all. That alone will pay for two shuricannons on your jetbike squads. Issue 2 - the scorpion exarch. Another pointless upgrade. If you use the warp jump generators and roll a double, a random model is removed as a casualty to the warp. Nothing worse than seeing that expensive exarch get it!

I think scorpions are just terrible in this edition, as is their Phoenix lord. The points are much better spent elsewhere. Especially when the total comes out at more than 25% of your army. They will all be killed, quickly. And long before they do any serious damage. For those points you can get fire dragons in a serpent or something of that ilk which would be much more effective, alternatively fully titled dark reapers - not everyone's choice but with star shot they're pretty good. The reason I suggest them in your list though his because I have no idea where you are going to put your Farseer! If he goes in the serpents, his psychic powers are useless. Can't cast if your inside as there are no fire points. So he needs to be outside to use his powers and actually be effective and worth taking. Which means you have no where to plonk him - which means one dead Farseer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the lords should double up. 2 x lance or 2 x scatter laser. They need to pick a specific roll. They're kind of a bit of everything right now, which means you'll always have wasted shots.

I believe you mean the "spider" exarch is crap, not the scorpain one. scorpain one is good, spider one is..... ok.
i do think scorpians points are better spent elsewehere, (war walkers+wave serpents #1 choice)
Lords to need x2 lances, or x2 scatters. mixed roles are really a waste.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bigpapa7964 wrote:
Elites -

5x Fire Dragons w/ Exarch - Firepike, Fast Shot - Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Laser, Holofields, Shuriken Cannon

Total - 290 points

quote]

To everyone who has seen me rant on this befor, im sorry.

Fire dragons dont need upgrades!!!!!!!!!
they are good enoguh already! Is it really worht it to pay 30+ points tto kill something that 5 guys would kill anyways? no.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Will you really not change those parts? I have 2 issues with those: the runes on the Farseer, they're crap and an utter waste of 30 points. No need for them at all. That alone will pay for two shuricannons on your jetbike squads. Issue 2 - the scorpion exarch. Another pointless upgrade. If you use the warp jump generators and roll a double, a random model is removed as a casualty to the warp. Nothing worse than seeing that expensive exarch get it!

I think scorpions are just terrible in this edition, as is their Phoenix lord. The points are much better spent elsewhere. Especially when the total comes out at more than 25% of your army. They will all be killed, quickly. And long before they do any serious damage. For those points you can get fire dragons in a serpent or something of that ilk which would be much more effective, alternatively fully titled dark reapers - not everyone's choice but with star shot they're pretty good. The reason I suggest them in your list though his because I have no idea where you are going to put your Farseer! If he goes in the serpents, his psychic powers are useless. Can't cast if your inside as there are no fire points. So he needs to be outside to use his powers and actually be effective and worth taking. Which means you have no where to plonk him - which means one dead Farseer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the lords should double up. 2 x lance or 2 x scatter laser. They need to pick a specific roll. They're kind of a bit of everything right now, which means you'll always have wasted shots.

I believe you mean the "spider" exarch is crap, not the scorpain one. scorpain one is good, spider one is..... ok.
i do think scorpians points are better spent elsewehere, (war walkers+wave serpents #1 choice)
Lords to need x2 lances, or x2 scatters. mixed roles are really a waste.

I did mean the spider, but I still think the scorpion one is too!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

I think scorpions are just terrible in this edition, as is their Phoenix lord.

NOPE.

I'm not sure how a turn 1 assault (if you go second) is bad by any stretch of the imagination. Not only that, but Karandras is one of the most powerful CC monsters in the game right now. He can have up to what, 7 attacks on the charge? 6 S8 AP2 and his S6 HoW hit? In what way is that bad? He'll hit before every other (non chaos) MC, he has Stalker and Monster Hunter, which means he can take the Swarmlord out, even if it has Iron Arm. And Abaddon? Whatevs, man. They'll be locked in combat for a turn, then after Karandras's unit is done slaughtering whatever overpriced bodyguards Abaddon brought, Karandras and co will finish the job.

I believe there not terrbile, but arent great, and dont have a place in competitive lists.

thats dumping 450+ points on a decent unit. easily killed shooting.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I believe there not terrbile, but arent great, and dont have a place in competitive lists.

thats dumping 450+ points on a decent unit. easily killed shooting.

Exactly. Karand-crap has to get to combat first, and that unit will almost never make their points back! They can drop abandon (though I think that particular fact is up for debate) and then what? They stand there whilst the enemy's guns laugh at your pewny toughness 3. As for the scorpions taking his bodyguard...wow, I nearly wet myself laughing. With what? Chains words that don't ignore armour? Yep. You can go first. And once I'm done giggling at that tickling sensation I will then take your head clean off with my axe. Xenos filth.

Don't get me wrong, I like scorpions, and I like karandras, but don't kid yourself, they're not good units at all. There is SO MUCH better for the same points.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I believe there not terrbile, but arent great, and dont have a place in competitive lists.

thats dumping 450+ points on a decent unit. easily killed shooting.

Exactly. Karand-crap has to get to combat first, and that unit will almost never make their points back! They can drop abandon (though I think that particular fact is up for debate) and then what? They stand there whilst the enemy's guns laugh at your pewny toughness 3. As for the scorpions taking his bodyguard...wow, I nearly wet myself laughing. With what? Chains words that don't ignore armour? Yep. You can go first. And once I'm done giggling at that tickling sensation I will then take your head clean off with my axe. Xenos filth.

Don't get me wrong, I like scorpions, and I like karandras, but don't kid yourself, they're not good units at all. There is SO MUCH better for the same points.

Scorpions need an alpha strike, which can happen if they infiltrate and go second, it may be hard because most opponents would shoot at them or simply move away, but fleet helps. Also, a full unit puts out 10 S4 AP5 shots with kind of rending, 10 S3 AP- hits at I10 and 30 S4 AP6 attacks at I5. That's not bad. Of course, howling banshees have power swords, but then again they can't infiltrate. They also don't have 3+ armor saves like Scorpions.

I'm not saying these guys are amazing. I'm saying that they aren't as bad as you make them out to be. They will kill off at least a few enemy models, and if they and Karandras lock up a powerful CC unit, chances are they'll win. The hit at I10 is pretty good, though it may not do much good, maybe killing one or two marines, but 30 S4 attacks will roll marines, especially if the marines don't have power swords or an exarch challenges him.

HQ -

Farseer - Singing Spear

Total - 105 points

Elites -

5x Fire Dragons w/ Exarch - Firepike, Fast Shot - Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Laser, Holofields, Shuriken Cannon

Total - 290 points

Troops

10x Guardian Defenders w/ Wave Serpent - Scatter Laser, Holofields, Shuriken Cannon

10x Guardian Defenders w/ Wave Serpent - Scatter Laser, Holofields, Shuriken Cannon

2x5 Windrider Jetbike Squadrons

Total - 640 points

Fast Attack

10x Warp Spiders w/ Exarch - Fast Shot, Spinneret Rifle

Total - 225 points

Heavy Support

Wraithlord - Dual Flamers, Dual Brightlances

Wraithlord - Dual Flamers, Dual Brightlances

5x Dark Reapers w/ Exarch - Fast Shot, Reaper Launcher

Total - 490 points

Fortifications

Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun

Total - 100 points.


Right at 1850 points. Farseer goes w/ the Reapers, with the Exarch manning the Quad gun. Pulled the Avengers since they were redundant, and
added a second Wraithlord w/ dual Brightlances. With 3 Wave Serpents, plenty of heavy firepower/Anti-tank, speed with the Spiders, and AA, I feel like it's
become much more balanced. Still not sold on the two Wraithlords though, may have to pony up the cash for a Wraithknight with Suncannon, Scattershield and 1x Scatter Laser.
Thoughts?

I think it's becoming a really nice list. Do you have starshot missiles on the reapers? If not I'd recommend them! You can gain the points from the spiders and the fragons exarchs, as they aren't needed.

As for the wraithknight, I run 2. They really are incredible units. However, the weapon load outs is up for debate. I think stock is best. But a lot of people have success with the Cannon laser combo. I just think it makes him too expensive!

I could drop the Dragon/Spider Exarchs easily enough to upgrade to Starshot missiles, it's a logical choice.

The Heavy Support is really the slot I'm having the toughest time reconciling at the moment. While a Wraithknight w/ Suncannon, Shimmershield and Scatter Laser
gives me the potential for 3x twin-linked S6 AP2 blasts, and the mobility upgrade for being a Jump MC, I can't help but think the 2 WL's give me two T8 models on the field
instead of one, as well as giving me four Brightlance shots.

It's a tough balance to make....

2 lords mean you can separate them and split the enemy's fire. The wounds, toughness and armour saves are all the same for both. The knight does offer mobility, and as stock is a lot cheaper - I am unfortunately dead against the Cannon. I just think the wraith weapons are too good. (Especially when you instant death o'vesa in turn one!!) the knights strength and initiative make him really good in combat...another reason for not taking expensive weapons upgrades. Also you can guaran-damn-tee that the enemy will panic shoot everything at it. And a single one might go down. 2 lords people seem to see as less of a threat, and won't shoot straight away! But remember they are characters! So they get precision shots on 6's. Always nice precision shooting a character with a bright lance!

In short, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer! Especially in your list now. As it is pretty all rounded, without the wraiths. So it boils down to personal preference!

Dropping the Warp Spider and Fire dragon Exarchs, I could run a stock Wraithknight AND one Wraithlord with 2x Brightlances... But I'd need to find 10 more points to cut to make 1850.

Perhaps drop one jet bike squad down to four if you want both?

Ugh, I'm really loathe to do that though... I've only got four scoring units in an 1850 point game, and none of them are exactly tough-as-nails. While one bike wouldn't seem to make much of a difference, one bike could make the difference as to whether the Jetbike squad weather enough action to boost onto an objective in the last turn or not. I'll probably just wind up buying two Wraith Lords AND one Wraithknight, and simply experiment with the combinations. If anything, I could drop the Shuriken Cannon from the Dragons' Serpent, since it's purpose is more to deliver the Dragons next to a fat juicy armoured target, rather than survive the entire game.

That might be a much better idea! I'd agree with that entirely!