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I probably wouldn't mind Mortar HWSs if it weren't for the fact that Quad Thudd Guns exist. I can actually respect the negative differences (they take up heavy support slots in regular IG and they aren't scoring in 5/6 normal missions) but the firepower-per-point being so much higher on a tougher unit means that I'm probably just going to be using most of the mortars on my HWT sprues as kitbashing or terrain parts, at least in my army.

(Plus I get to make nebelwerfer carriages out of medication bottles )

 BlkTom wrote:
Pick the right targets (troops that are bunched up in perfect blast formation instead of spaced out at maximum coherency distance) and they are gresdt

Fixed that for you.

Against targets with proper spacing you can only expect to hit one model per shot, and without LOS you're going to have a hard time hitting any models unless you roll a direct hit. So that's three STR 4 hits with armor saves allowed. Against marines that's half a marine per turn that you score a direct hit. Against guardsmen that's 1.333 dead, but with much bigger hordes to kill. Now compare that to the 12x guardsmen with lasguns you could buy for the same points.

 Apologist wrote:
160pts for two mortar teams, which can both set up safely out of sight near a home objective and spend the whole game making a nuisance of themselves, are points well spent to me.

You mean points well wasted. 160 points is way too much for a unit that is at best a nuisance, especially in an army that has easy access to much better barrage weapons.

and crucially, they can target suits that have popped behind cover; something that other heavy weapon teams can struggle against.

But they can't target suits effectively. You're much better off taking LCs for the instant death and no armor saves and trying your luck with cover.

but in the fact your opponent cannot target them directly

The problem is that your opponent doesn't need to target them directly. Mortars have such laughably bad firepower that your opponent can just ignore them. And no, their ability to score doesn't make up for it since you can spend the same 60 points on another infantry squad that will be considerably more durable if your opponent manages to get LOS on them.

I wouldn't build an army around them, but they synergise well with sanctioned psyker squads (for the LD reduction) and large numbers of direct fire tanks (which distract the enemy from targetting the squishy mortars and can be used to physically screen them).

No they don't. Psykers are wasted points now that you can't cast weaken resolve out of a Chimera, and they weren't even much of a combo when you could. Once you've invested in LD reduction for a decent chance of pinning (if you can hit and inflict a wound) you've spent a lot of points that could have been spent on killing the unit entirely. Meanwhile they don't synergize at all with tanks, since your plan is to use a powerful and expensive tank army as a meatshield for a useless mortar squad. The way to synergize with your tanks is to bring more tanks, or something like allied divination psykers that directly boosts their effectiveness.

These light tanks have all the same advantages but on a sturdier chassis and at a better S.

Exactly. If you're ever in a situation where barrage weapons are effective a Griffon squadron or Colossus will be much more effective than wasting points on mortars.

Fair points, Peregrine.
Given the OP's question:

I've just got the IG battleforce and with it my first HWTs. With my army planned to be mainly infantry platoons supported by these and veterans, I was wondering which was the best all round, or for a specific role.

In my defence, I'm not advocating mortars as a great all-round unit; merely that they're fun and have worked well for me in the circumstances I've outlined in my posts. Given that my army seems similar to the OP's – mainly infantry – I thought I'd give my experience.

Given the OP has the models already, it's a bit pointless advocating an alternative like a tank, except with an eye towards eventual army development.

Would a couple of mortar teams work well in concert with a Basilisk do you reckon?

Work against what, though?

Neither the basilisk nor the mortars are particularly useful against units in ruins (thanks to how barrage rules work). Neither are particularly good against monstrous creatures or vehicles. Neither are particularly good against terminators. Neither are particularly good against properly displaced troops out in the open. Neither of them ignore cover saves.

So... they're not good against hordes in cover or spread out outside of cover, and they're not good against heavy targets... so... what are they actually good at?

 BlkTom wrote:
Here is a vid from Mini War Gamer batrep showing the effect of massed mortar fire, used in way that nearly every poster has said was bad.
Note there are two parts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUjMJhM5mrk
Pick the right targets (troops) and they are gresdt

That's a good battle report, but a bad example. You're probably not going to play against many tightly-clustered demon lists like this. In fact, this is one of the exact things that falls into the tiny niche of what mortars can do (horde army with no armor save), but that doesn't mean that, outside of their niche, they're going to do much.

There is one thing, Ailaros: Crisis suits. Basilisks are astoundingly effective against crisis suits. And if your meta accepts Forgeworld, you can get them on a T7 W4 3+ artillery unit for 75 points, instead.

That is a steal, even if you don't have Tau in your meta. Sure, they don't ignore cover...but you can issue orders to make your enemy reroll it!

Colossuses also breach crisis suit armor and also fire indirectly. Yes, they don't cause ID, but they also flush pathfinders out of their holes a LOT better as well. A big pile of basilisks is going to be better against a farsight enclave dropping in, but they're going to be worse against tau in general.

When I can buy a Basilisk for 75 points, rerolling cover is quite sufficient. I'll take saving 60 points and causing ID to crisis suits, any day.

Unless you're paying 125 points for them, in which case they're only barely cheaper. They're also easier to kill as well when the earthshaker is in platform mode, what with being vulnerable to pulse fire, etc.

 Banzaimash wrote:
Would a couple of mortar teams work well in concert with a Basilisk do you reckon?

One of the big tactics in this game is spamming something. Your goal is to overload a unit and either have the fire power to kill them outright or it is going to be a death of a thousand cuts (make them roll 1s and fail). When you have a weaker strength unit (like Mortars) You want to do what was shown in that video. Guy had his demons spaced 2" apart and guy was hitting 2 at a time (center hole of the marker needs to be fully over the base of the target, but any fig's base under the marker is hit, even if it is a small amount, as long as it overlaps). He just kept hitting them and for 5pts a pop per unit, it worked fine, specially on Turn 1. If they have a large unit spaced out, it is harder for them to stay behind cover from direct fire weapons. If you gut out the middle with mortar fire, they have to move to reconsolidate and get back into coherency when they are done moving. If they are still to far apart, they have to run towards each other. Also remember that Mortars can't snap fire. If you move, your not firing them.

So yeah, if you want to do a indirect fire list, you should do two things. Give yourself plenty of indirect fire (Artillery, Mortars, Master of Ordnance) and you should give yourself plenty of direct fire. If they spread out, use focus fire on the guys no longer in cover. They will also need to attack you to either get inside indirect fire range on your bigger guns and also if they get close to you, you risk hitting your own units on a scatter (it is why I never endorse assault lists with artillery). Spam the indirect, but be ready to take advantage of it. And you will need the direct fire if your playing against a attacking list (bike spam, Nids, and Orks are examples) where you might only have a turn or two of fire before they are in on you.

One other thing I like about Mortars is that since they can fire Indirect, you normally want them out of Line of Sight to the enemy. This means they are harder to kill because they can't see them to kill them. But for you, as the player, you don't have to worry about supporting them as much as you would do for all the other HWSs. You don't have to look at a CCS with a Banner and keep the Mortars within 12" for Ld re-rolls and you don't have to consider a Lord Commissar to stand around them to boost their Leadership. Order for them will not be needed because on of the prereqs is that both the unit giving the Orders and the unit getting the Orders have to 'see' (LoS) the target of the Orders. So your probably not going to be Twin Linking your Mortars, but the Barrage rule helps alleviate that some.

Something you can do, is buy extra bases (check Ebay or Google for 60mm bases) and take your extra mortar bits and throw them on a cheap 60mm base and put two lasgun troopers on the base (you don't even have to glue them on, just keep them on their own bases) and you can have mortars without wasting your heavy weapon bits (like kneeling guys and the like). I bought a bunch and some extra tripods and I was able to get 6-9 heavy weapon teams (3 ACs, LCs, and Mortars) from one box buy using a combination of one kneeling guy and a standing guy from a trooper box. Now you will not feel locked into Mortars if it turns out you don't like them and you will not have invested anything really into them since you don't want to glue the standing guys (who are on their own base) to the 60mm base with the weapon. Only guys I glued down were the kneeling guys and the tripod weapons. I was even going to magnetize them so I could swap out the LCs and ACs, but I decided I didn't want to put that much extra work into it (plus they length from the 'trigger' to the peg that goes into the tripod are not the same).

 martin74 wrote:
Not saying missile launchers are great, just not near what one needs for the IG. Auto cannon or Lascannon is about the only way to go.

If I had to rank the options:

1/2. Lascannon/autocannon: these two are toss ups.
3. Heavy bolter
4. Missile Launcher
5. Mortars.

In terms of individual heavy weapons teams that you place in your inafntry squards I agree with this list. However if you were going to form Heavy weapons squads It would be something like this:

1. Missile Launcher
2. Autocannon
3. Mortar
4. Las Cannon
5. heavy bolter.

Now I can hear the "what the hell are you talking about maj?!" as I write this so let me explain. If you are playing against some one where a group of 3 las cannons is actaully necessary, then those heavy weapons squads with 3 las cannons are going to be target #1 for any long range attack he has. Which means you might get two turns out of them. IMO the same thing goes for heavy bolters. If you are facing an army so hordey you need 9 shots a squad to deal with it then two things are going to happen. Hes either going to take them out from range or due to the short range non-pinning nature of heavy bolters hes going to get with in melee range of something before you kill enough dudes. Thats why I put mortar above both. You can put it behind stuff and still deal with horde and have the bonus of pinning against stuff that pinning actually works against. One thing to remember about a heavy weapons team armed with lascannons is that it is only 25 points cheaper than a vendetta which has 3 twin linked las cannons, transport capabilities, extra armor and can deepstrike.

It is possible for a mech list to move, disembark, and charge a unit 24" away (if all of the planets align or they have movement bonuses).

And if not Turn 1, it is possible for sure on Turn 2. Every list needs reliable, specially on Turn 1. You have a chance of not having Night Fighting and a chance to be shooting first. At this point, it doesn't matter what is the source of the Lascannon fire, he needs it then.

?

Unless the transport is open-topped (or has an assault ramp), the models inside can't disembark. Under no circumstances whatever can the transport move more than 6", and have the cargo disembark. If your opponent blows up your transport on their player turn, the guys inside STILL can't assault on the NEXT player turn.

6th ed hates assault, and it REALLY hates mech assault.

 Ailaros wrote:
?

Unless the transport is open-topped (or has an assault ramp), the models inside can't disembark. Under no circumstances whatever can the transport move more than 6", and have the cargo disembark. If your opponent blows up your transport on their player turn, the guys inside STILL can't assault on the NEXT player turn.

6th ed hates assault, and it REALLY hates mech assault.

His Idea(Completely Incorrect for Guard, though it may be; but can work for Open topped/Assault ramp vehicles) is to start right at the deployment lime with your vehicle sideways directly across the table from the target unit(just technically over 24" in most cases), Travel 6" and turn your Prow/Access point to wards the enemy(gaining some distance from the turn to put your vehicle/access point within 18"), Disembark your unit 6" directly towards your target(or at least the front 1-2 models); Hope for a 12" charge range.

And for the record 6th doesn't hate assault, but it does hate Mech Assault(Which has been the method of choice from 3rd to 4th; 5th did away with much of it already).

From what i can tell, anti-infantry multipple barrage works awesome in 6 edition cause of sniping out stuff and clearing the places most needed to be empty and not the frontlines (just some chargin' stuff ). But i play orkses and our multiple barrage are lobbas. And for 100 points it's a really tough unit of 3 s5 ap5 48' gunz with like 8 grot krew (t7 guyz for 3 pts each ) with a runthread to reroll ld tests and 3 rerolls to hit (though can be minimized to 75 + 9 for just 3 rerolls). From my experience, they're so awesome that they obliterate almost any infantry they even work vs packed termies killing 1-2 in general, causing pinning and stuff. Mortairs seem much worse but still playable. The main thing is why don't you take a thunderfire cannon if you got sm allies instead? Thunderfire cannon is the best artillery anti-infantry gun that can ignore cover if it wants and slow footslogas (a single TFC makes a few squads of my sloggas useless and a few TFC ruins a greentide, personally i think it must be nerfed hard), also kill vehicles up to av12, has a techmarine gunner who is great on his own even if a cannon is somehow destroyed, besides you get bolster defences! And just for 100 pts IIRC.

A griffon is far superior to a mortar team.

3mortars is not worth the cost of 12 guardsmen, but might be worth the cost of 3 or 9 guardsmen depending how you look at it. If a platoon is dedicated to holding the back field then spending 15 points on mortars for 2 infantry squads and the pcs might be ok because it's3 Separate chances to pin When flashlights are out of range

If the IG HS is already loaded with pie plates and a servo skull inquisitor is allied in then adding a mortar to every squad could produce some pin checks on turn 1And 2. It would slow the game down too much for tournament play but it might be effective.

You can use all of the,.Here is what I did...
1. Put the gunners on separate 25 mm bases
2. Put missile launcher on a standing dude.
3. Put morter on a round termy base
4. Heavy bolter, las cannon, autocannon put one on a tripod on a horse base the other two on something similar on 2 other horse bases.
5. flock you big 60mm base.
6. When game time comes, put what you need to make a full team on the big flocked base.
7. If you add in spare standing dudes to mix in, and get a few extra big 60mm bases, you can field the full 5 HW. Three box sets and you'll be able to field a full squad of each of the 5.

general speaking Autocannons are a good option. Although I must admit that some opponents get kinda scared when it's 3 las cannon or 3 missiles coming their way.
It also kinda depends on what squad i'm giving it to as vet squuads hit a lot more often.

All the talk of Griffons, Thunderfire cannons etc. is true, but consider the OP's request:

Hey guys, I've just got the IG battleforce and with it my first HWTs. With my army planned to be mainly infantry platoons supported by these and veterans, I was wondering which was the best all round, or for a specific role.

So, when answering the question, perhaps it might be useful to imagine you have a complete Guard army – and the scenario allows you a free heavy weapon squad.

What would you like it to be armed with, if you already had your dream Guard army?

 Apologist wrote:
All the talk of Griffons, Thunderfire cannons etc. is true, but consider the OP's request:

Hey guys, I've just got the IG battleforce and with it my first HWTs. With my army planned to be mainly infantry platoons supported by these and veterans, I was wondering which was the best all round, or for a specific role.

So, when answering the question, perhaps it might be useful to imagine you have a complete Guard army – and the scenario allows you a free heavy weapon squad.

What would you like it to be armed with, if you already had your dream Guard army?

I would never run HWT in 6th edition, but I would use the models to arm 10 man squads with LC and 5 man squads with ac. That's the most practical way to go.